Anti-Suspension Laws and lack of consequences are taking a toll on our K12 schools

Submitted by bostonteacher90871 t3_1176bd6 in massachusetts

As a teacher I am starting to see the consequences of these new anti-suspension laws. Administrators can't hold kids accountable anymore since these new laws make it so hard to give out consequences. Schools rather throw up their arms than face a costly lawsuit they cannot afford.

What is the result? We are teaching kids there are no consequences and they continue to disrupt the learning of the other 30 kids in the room. I'd be mad at hell if I was a parent knowing some knucklehead is ruining it for everyone. We are not allowed to give detentions or refer to the office anymore so anything goes. Administrators may "talk" to the kids and then the kids laugh at them afterwards for being so soft.

Politicians make these laws without any regard on how it affects the day to day operations of schools. Too many suspensions? Make it harder to give suspensions! Low graduation rate? Penalize schools for low rates. Guess what schools do to make graduation rates go up? They make excuses for the kids and make it so fluffy to get credit for classes they should have failed. "Just do 5% of the work and you will pass!" I have failed kids in my classes and have gotten overruled.

All kids deserve the right to a rigorous education that isn't disrupted by troublemakers that are coddled. Bring back consequences and allow schools to hold the line.

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Mysterious-House-51 t1_j9ay3ef wrote

Suspension really isn't a consequence anyway tbh. More like a mini vacation.

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SparkDBowles t1_j9bl38n wrote

In school suspension is the way. Or, make the kids stay to do chores after school.

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wittgensteins-boat t1_j9f6rbz wrote

Schools must step up and run a parallel supervised track.

The statute was created, because more than a few districts abandoned the young people to semi-permanent suspension, and there was no learning progress for these I individuals over the course of years.

Basically the population requires a variety of a special needs program.

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Mary10123 t1_j9dcbau wrote

I agree, suspensions did next to nothing for kids who got em, and less than nothing for kids who didn’t and has those kids in class with them. If kids don’t want to learn, they won’t, if kids do want to learn they will. I was an achieving student with friends who weren’t and segregated from me, I learned a lot from those friends and wouldn’t have done as well at life without them, don’t try to control the world with these weird ideologies

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Seaworthiness222 t1_j9b8dsd wrote

Sounds like having 30 kids in the room is part of the issue. WTF.

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britbanana t1_j9bqrqx wrote

As a former teacher, I can appreciate your sentiment here. It's so frustrating to see kids do whatever the hell they want with no real consequences or support to improve. I don't think suspensions are the answer but in a day to day setting, I have to say that when the tougher kids were suspended, it made teaching WAY easier.

The system is a failure but I see a lot of the commenters ignoring that the day to day toll on teachers is immense. We signed up to teach, not to be counselors, second parents, physical protectors and to give up our mental and physical health. While suspension fails to support those students who are struggling and acting out, it does allow the rest of the class to move on and learn in a safe environment.

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H2Omekanic t1_j9b7q24 wrote

It's called "In-House" suspension. Do schools not have this anymore? Do schools not have a dedicated room for this? It worked back in the 90s, add a cop and it would work today.

Edit: For those who never had this, let me explain how it worked. You went to school and reported to (or were sent to) the In-House suspension room. Desks were arraigned around the perimeter of the room right up against the wall and facing the wall. There were office type partitions between the desks. There was no talking or interacting with others and video games were banned. Your teachers were notified of your IHS and could send you class work if necessary. School lunch orders were taken by the attendant and delivered. Three 4 minute bathroom breaks were spread across the school day between periods.

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Bada__Ping t1_j9bg6l6 wrote

They have this still but at some schools you basically just sit there doing whatever you want all day

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oceansofmyancestors t1_j9cr66w wrote

We called it “internal” or “external” suspension, and the last step was expulsion.

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boofin19 t1_j9cxgw6 wrote

Schools dont have the staffing and space.

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H2Omekanic t1_j9dogn4 wrote

In Massachusetts? Calling bs on that for most schools.

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boofin19 t1_j9mc4g2 wrote

Missed my notification to your reply. I’ve worked in 3 districts in 10 years and have family who teach in eastern MA as well as many friends and colleagues still teaching in the area. Staffing shortages are at all levels. Admin, classroom teachers, and support. We’ve become accustomed to large classroom sizes with fewer teachers. Most classrooms are used throughout the day so there is not space or the people for in house suspension.

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UtopianLibrary t1_j9kthqv wrote

This is included in the law. It’s ANY suspension, even the in-school ones, which is why the law is ridiculous.

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H2Omekanic t1_j9l08xx wrote

Open letter non-compliance then. If no schools comply there will be no enforcement. Spitting on the sidewalk is against the law in places. Not so much enforced. Ditto tailgating on highway

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Pointlesswonder802 t1_j9azqsn wrote

Suspensions have been proven to have little to no effect on at risk students. Those having issues IN school are unlikely to be bettered by allowing them to just not be in school. And secondary “send suspended kids here” institutions are just daycares.

Yea the school system is suffering but saying it’s not penal enough is your misunderstanding of the system on the whole. I have lived in and among ISS and OSS districts with high non compliance penalization and all it does is piss off the teachers because of increases in bureaucracy

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Starrion t1_j9be0mm wrote

So how do you get disruptive kids out of the classroom so the rest of the class can learn?
We already know that our country has a failed mental health system, and a lot of these kids are walking around with untreated mental disorders. How do teachers/administrators deal with kids who can't behave in a classroom setting to avoid having 30 kids who aren't learning?

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Pointlesswonder802 t1_j9bt8p7 wrote

Honestly I don’t have a fantastic answer here as much as I wish I did. Better/more effective in school counseling. More direct/personal interaction to figure out where the individuals interest lies or how to redirect that angst or emotion. Earlier intervention to identify the source of an issue before it necessitates suspension. Or even just interacting in a way that says “you don’t want to be here fine but don’t be an asshole and ruin this for everyone else.”

There’s no easy answer unfortunately. That being said, suspensions are proven not to help. So leaning on a broken system to fix a broken system doesn’t make a lot of sense

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[deleted] t1_j9bun4e wrote

[deleted]

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TeacherGuy1980 t1_j9f4jxl wrote

How do you force schools to be accountable when you yourself cite that there is limited staff and resources? Magic?

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[deleted] t1_j9f5jp8 wrote

[deleted]

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TeacherGuy1980 t1_j9fdl0a wrote

So what happens when more often than not the funding is not there? All the special ed teachers I know have grueling schedules and gigantic case loads. It is moronic to think it's a lack of will.

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[deleted] t1_j9flnna wrote

[deleted]

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TeacherGuy1980 t1_j9fs8ji wrote

Administrators, of-course, in many school districts have advocated for larger budgets for years and haven't gotten it. Cities and towns often vote no on the necessary budgets to run these schools. These reserve funds you speak of are paltry compared to what is really needed. Now what? It's easy to make mandates, but no one wants to fund them.

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StalePieceOfBread t1_j9bf0b0 wrote

You need to address the root cause of what makes them "disruptive."

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Starrion t1_j9bfzs5 wrote

>r

They're teachers. They are not mental health professionals. Some of them may have 90 kids to teach a subject, papers to grade, lesson plans to write, ect.
In a perfect world, they could call the parents and have them deal with it. Or have a guidance counselor to help.
It's 11:05. Johnny just smacked lisann in the back of the head, and is screaming at the top of his lungs. You tell him to stop but he just yells "make me"! This is the fifth time in three weeks that he has done something similar. Now what?

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[deleted] t1_j9bv0og wrote

[deleted]

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Starrion t1_j9c1e1y wrote

Been through the process? It takes months. Referrals, appointments, and meetings. IF YOU'RE LUCKY. That's IF you have parents willing to participate, IF you have a school system with resources to do the work, and IF you can get the parents to take them to a pediatrician for assessment $$$.
I'm not saying that we need the schools going all Florida and having police yank 5 YOs out in handcuffs. Kids who are having uncontrollable outbursts or are violent need to NOT be returned to the classroom until that's dealt with.
Keep in mind that resources in schools are tight. If a kid has to be removed and kept in the school, there is zero chance they will be in a room by themselves. There simply isn't enough staff. So you are back to the Alternative/daycare model or as it was termed back in the 70's when I was in one, the "Special ed" room.

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UtopianLibrary t1_j9ktr3f wrote

There’s no replacement for the consequence though. Schools don’t have the trained personnel to counsel these at-risk kids who probably need a psychiatrist and some type of medication.

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Pointlesswonder802 t1_j9kwuik wrote

Most kids that get suspended don’t see it as a consequence. If you’re acting up so poorly that you require a suspension chances are that you don’t see being told that you’re mandated to skip school as a punishment

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UtopianLibrary t1_j9lgobf wrote

Honestly, getting the kid out of the classroom for a day is for the other 25 kids in the room and the teacher. For example, if a kid was using abusive language toward another student or a teacher, having a breathing day without that kid in the room to possibly do it again is a much needed break for everyone.

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ThreeDogs2022 t1_j9c2ubn wrote

I'm pretty comfortable saying that in general, out of school suspension is

A. not a consequence for a legitimate trouble maker

B. simply allows school and staff to ignore the actual problem

C. Kicks the can down the road because the kid who can't stay out of trouble in school, who doesn't end up getting a good education because after x number of suspensions he inevitably drops out, simply becomes a problem for society in general

Don't get me wrong. I feel you. I 100% support school teachers, teacher's unions, and public schools. I *believe* in public education.

You wanna strike because your district has an unmitigated discipline problem? I'll be right there next to you holding a sign.

But you're making a mistake and conflating suspension with effective discipline. It ISNT. Evidence on that is pretty damn clear.

Bring in more staff. Make sure classes are small and paras are plentiful. Create an environment of mutual respect and trust. Protect the kids who really want to learn. But don't just kick out the problem kiddos. There's got to be a better solution.

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LowkeyPony t1_j9ayznn wrote

"We are teaching kids there are no consequences and they continue to disrupt the learning of the other 30 kids in the room"

Oh sweetie. That's been going on for DECADES now.

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[deleted] t1_j9btqob wrote

[deleted]

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geffe71 t1_j9c8q3g wrote

I was bullied and the administration did nothing. I once had a pocket knife pulled on me and they did nothing

The one time I got assaulted and then beat the fuck out of the kid, I was labeled the problem. The kid I fucked up went in to commit arson and destruction of property, but I’m the asshole apparently

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PabloX68 t1_j9cfjai wrote

Zero tolerance policies and shitty parents are the problem.

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thefenceguy t1_j9avodf wrote

I don’t believe you one bit. You’re using a throw away account and not providing any supporting evidence. You are probably a troll who’s in the pocket of the “private school” people. Prove me wrong.

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goldengodz t1_j9b8j1u wrote

Nothing is real and eveything is a conspiracy

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Technical_Hair_4383 t1_j9b62aj wrote

Admin have been using suspensions freely or not depending on their inclinations for a long time. The law is MA makes suspensions without an attempt to re-engage the students a thing of the past. See https://vdhboston.com/massachusetts-legislature-amends-student-discipline-law/

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H2Omekanic t1_j9dlupl wrote

This is laughable...re-engage the student. Can't ya just slap the shit out of them? Lol. Don't want to learn? GTFO! Act like an animal at school? Parents problem

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Technical_Hair_4383 t1_j9f188x wrote

I take it you have never seen a school official deal with a parent who has hired a lawyer. Do you know how much your local district has had to spend to deal with lawsuits brought by parents?

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Mindless_Arachnid_74 t1_j9b4bjx wrote

What anti-suspension law? Link?

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Technical_Hair_4383 t1_j9b5nah wrote

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXII/Chapter71/Section37H3~4

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Mindless_Arachnid_74 t1_j9b73k2 wrote

I also thought schools weren’t babysitters or supposed to be parents? So are schools supposed to “hold the line” or not?

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StalePieceOfBread t1_j9bf64u wrote

Punish the "bad, thug kids," not "my little angel, Joseph Mengele Aryan Nation Hitler Goebbels Jr."

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Mindless_Arachnid_74 t1_j9b6wyj wrote

Right. It is a law from 2012. Nothing new.

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Technical_Hair_4383 t1_j9bljl8 wrote

It was recently amended to make suspensions more difficult for administrators to implement.

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LackingUtility t1_j9bu97s wrote

Here's the as-amended version:

>(b) (effective November 8, 2022)
Any principal, headmaster, superintendent or person acting as a decision-maker at a student meeting or hearing, when deciding the consequences for the student, shall consider ways to re-engage the student in the learning process; and shall not suspend or expel a student until alternative remedies have been employed and their use and results documented, following and in direct response to a specific incident or incidents, unless specific reasons are documented as to why such alternative remedies are unsuitable or counter-productive, and in cases where the student’s continued presence in school would pose a specific, documentable concern about the infliction of serious bodily injury or other serious harm upon another person while in school. Alternative remedies may include, but shall not be limited to: (i) mediation; (ii) conflict resolution; (iii) restorative justice; and (iv) collaborative problem solving. The principal, headmaster, superintendent or person acting as a decision-maker shall also implement school- or district-wide models to re-engage students in the learning process which shall include but not be limited to: (i) positive behavioral interventions and supports models and (ii) trauma sensitive learning models; provided, however, that school- or district-wide models shall not be considered a direct response to a specific incident.

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H2Omekanic t1_j9dn68m wrote

Since cops are quitting/ leaving/retiring from Democrat run cities in droves they figure its time teachers get accustomed to being corrections officers & cops. Have fun with that

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Technical_Hair_4383 t1_j9f0yx4 wrote

First, cops aren't leaving in droves. See HEREfor a more measured take. Second, the violent crime rate has been dropping for decades. NYC, for instance, long a Democratic stronghold, has become a very safe place to live -- safer than Indianapolis.

Perhaps we don't need as many of those cops as we used to. Perhaps municipalities can spend the money more usefully on other services.

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Brodyftw00 t1_j9ewca3 wrote

Growing up, I couldn't stand the disruptive kids. They always drove me crazy. I can't image what it's like now.

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therealchiefrobert t1_j9fcdut wrote

There's so many things wrong with our education system that penalizing disruptive kids with no alternatives is ultimately the problem. More has to be done for both students and teachers. I am not expecting today's educators to recognize psychological or sensory issues but we are programming alot individuals to hate systems like school. Most end up going to check on friends or get something to eat in the end. Leaving the student bitter, unproductive and utterly dangerous at today's standards.

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Quirky_Butterfly_946 t1_j9auv36 wrote

While I do not disagree with your statements, one work around would be to have the disruptive student come to school and be in their own room being taught. They would get the one on one, no distractions, working on their school work deficiencies, eat lunch at their desk, and being picked up by a parent if possible.

They would be removed from the other students who want to be there, yet it is not a free day off falling more behind. When they are caught up to the class they can rejoin them.

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Bada__Ping t1_j9bg3z5 wrote

So hire an extra teacher for every disruptive student?

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Quirky_Butterfly_946 t1_j9bmhxq wrote

I'm sure there are substitutes that can do the job.

What correction is accomplished if the child just stays home, not to mention their need to learn whether they like it or not.

You just might turn the disruptive ones into better students or is that not the goal?

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needles617 t1_j9cqgv4 wrote

My kids are all in public school and I couldn’t agree more. These fuck head trouble maker kids ruin it for everyone.

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sticky_fingers18 t1_j9d5m7h wrote

I call bullshit. You made an account solely to post this one specific thing in the Mass subreddit rather than a teaching subreddit, with zero post history. My money is on some affiliation with a political opponent of the law you referenced

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andr_wr t1_j9bn6go wrote

Maybe burnout has gotten to you throwaway OP. Calling kids "failed", as if their grade is the most important indicator of whether they are or will contribute to society, or the weasel words and strawman kind of arguments, makes it seem like maybe you're just done worn out with teaching.

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Notmystationbro t1_j9cd0wf wrote

Teachers union is to blame and culture has taken a turn for the worst. People are nasty more than ever as opposed to 30 years ago. No respect for authority

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[deleted] t1_j9cdirj wrote

I teach at an international school overseas, and I was thinking about coming back to Mass to teach. Is it really that bad? Would I be better off only looking at private and charter schools?

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el_goyo_rojo t1_j9dgtgp wrote

It varies widely from district to district and school to school. But be wary of working for a charter school, they can be quite exploitive of their staff.

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Bunkerbuster12 t1_j9d1110 wrote

Had no clue any such laws had passed. Doesn't sound good

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t_11 t1_j9douag wrote

The unions are getting sneaky with shill posts

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dunkinfunky t1_j9eyg4i wrote

Hey man I don’t mean to break it to you, but your job’s a joke. Should there be a rigorous mandatory education process and disciplinary code of conduct? Why, so we can have super educated burger jockies wallowing in the irony of their existential dread and failure, broken spirited by the system we paid to mold them? High school education doesn’t get you anywhere in the workforce, so how seriously do you expect people to take it? It’s as worthless as the students that’re being subjected to it, if society is any indication. Wah wah wah, I can’t castigate the kids with difficult behaviors and my interpersonal skills are dogshit, if I’m not given unconditional authority I’m taking my ruler and going home. Good riddance.

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New-Vegetable-1274 t1_j9d5qv4 wrote

The schools are afraid of lawsuits? How about cameras that cover every square inch of the schools with the exception of locker rooms, bath rooms and faculty areas. If a kid is guilty of unacceptable behavior the school will have a recording to show the parents or the courts if the parents decide to sue. In addition to cameras there should be a three strikes you're out forever. The onus should be on the parents to make sure the kid behaves or have to find an alternative education venue. Public schools are for all students and for those who want to learn, their education and safety should come first. Why cater to these idiots who aren't getting anything out the education that's be offered to them anyway. Put them out on the streets, it's where they want to be and will end up anyway. I know many educators who are demoralized by the politics over sanity in our schools. The consensus is they're just running out the clock until they can retire. Doing the bare minimum in the classrooms, quietly quitting. Among them there are some who are pursuing other employment. We need to legislate all of this unnecessary BS out of the schools.

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