Submitted by Original_Musician103 t3_119mq0s in massachusetts
Comments
novolog t1_j9o9sy8 wrote
What sort of infrastructure
WaketheDeadDonuts t1_j9oaev6 wrote
East-West rail!
Moved from Boston out to Easthampton during the pandemic and love everything about Western MA
...I can ride my bike on a protected bike trail to the Northampton Amtrak station and hop a train to Manhattan. To get to Boston, my own state capital, I need to bus down to Springfield then catch a nearly 5 hour Greyhound to South Station.
PolarBlueberry t1_j9olvsv wrote
A commuter rail to Springfield would be amazing. It’s the 4th largest city in all of New England yet people see Western Mass as this sleepy rural area. Springfield became a major historical city because it is the crossroads of New England, it’s in the center of everything.
Plenty of SFHs in the area for under $300k, and that includes very nice neighborhoods of Springfield, East Longmeadow, etc.
Easthampton/Northampton is getting all the attention and there really isn’t much affordable anymore, and people are paying premium prices for cheaply built factory housing from the 1920s. But Hamden County has tons of opportunity.
nkdeck07 t1_j9qbvox wrote
>East Longmeadow
Not really true anymore. East Longmeadow has been discovered and the housing prices are going up accordingly.
SuperSpartacus t1_j9rxmxu wrote
Yeah because tons of people are going to take the 5 hour round trip every day from Springfield to Boston, makes sense
NewspaperEconomy5473 t1_j9sgy77 wrote
The East-West rail Alternative 4/5 Hybrid included travel times of 1 hour and 37 minutes between Springfield and South Station, with stops in Palmer, Worcester, Framingham, and Back Bay.
You might want to do some introductory reading about this project before you make ridiculous false claims like "5 hour round trip". The East-West rail study included both travel times and potential ridership, but you clearly didn't read any of it.
Talking about something you don't even have a basic understanding of is foolish and embarrassing.
BovaDesnuts t1_j9opcbi wrote
Fuck the rail. How about Springfield gets a tidbit of economic development instead of having its industries shuttered by Beacon Hill and its citizens given fuck-off payments to steer clear of the capitol.
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9ou7ko wrote
You’d be surprised how many agencies in western mass are pushing very hard for exactly what you’re saying. We get ignored for Boston, all the time, and when I am in grant review programs, I repeatedly let them know that it is not just the Boston area that has issues. But there has been some huge economic development push in Springfield, the casino was a big part of that. The fact that it backfired doesn’t mean people aren’t pushing eco dev Springfield.
BovaDesnuts t1_j9ousyk wrote
I'm from the area, I totally get it. I remember people saying "that tornado was the best thing that ever happened to us" when the casino went up, on account of it handling demolition of historic sites free of charge.
Know why isn't pushing for economic development in Springfield? The 2/3rds of voters who live in the Boston Metro. They want to squeeze every penny out of Springfield and every acre out of Worcester so they don't have to confront the truth that their lifestyle is unsustainable.
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9ov2bk wrote
Edit: This guy is a brand new account and explicitly says below that he doesn’t give a fuck about the region and it’s economic development. He’s full of shit.
The people who live and work in Boston are incredibly Boston centric and don’t even realize we exist as a real economic center or that the PioneerValley has so much more to offer then just pretty views. Of course, now they all want to move out here and work remote from home while telling us how we are supposed to do things the Boston way. It fucking pisses me off. You and I are definitely on the same page.
Edit: and you are right, the people out in that area or remote working in Boston only see where the money needs to go in Boston. Even if they live here, they are so focused on Boston is the only place that needs funding that it is so frustrating.
BovaDesnuts t1_j9ovamp wrote
Therefore, no rail. Rail bad. Go build skyscrapers in Salem and then we'll talk.
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9ovuh6 wrote
I’d actually disagree there. The east west rail wouldn’t just feed Boston, it would connect people on the Berkshire’s to Springfield and the rest of the Pioneer Valley. My planning agency is fully behind that rail idea exactly because it would bring eco dev into Springfield and the Valley, by connecting more of Western Mass together. I mean, screw all the focus on the eastern end of the state, but the east west rail would greatly benefit economic development in Springfield, Holyoke, etc.
BovaDesnuts t1_j9owcmi wrote
High-speed east-west rail would enable Boston to do to Springfield exactly what it's done to Worcester after the commuter rail started up in 1994. Displace locals, jack up property values, commute to Boston by high-speed rail, overwhelm the locals in elections, and degrade the local community.
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9oy43w wrote
The proposed east west rail doesn’t just go Springfield-Boston. It would go all the way to Pittsfield. Thereby connecting the Berkshires with the Valley. It would also connect Springfield & Palmer to Worcester. I’d suggest looking over the wealth of study documents on that page. It’s not just a high speed train from Springfield to Boston. It would connect a bunch of economically struggling and isolated areas in Western Mass together. It is uniformly supported by all the western regional planning agencies: BRPC, FRCOG, PVPC. Specifically for the economic benefits to our region. For real!
BovaDesnuts t1_j9oyrkv wrote
>Specifically for the economic benefits to our region.
Fuck the region. I care about the people and the culture. Land doesn't need economic opportunity, people do. How are you planning to stop the fine people of Framingham or Weymouth from displacing locals like they have in Worcester County?
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9ozybb wrote
Okay, aren’t you the guy who said fuck Bostons, who about some economic development for Springfield, but now you don’t give a fuck about the region? The one that has Springfield in it? And no way did you read anything about the studies of economic benefits to Springfield. You are ignoring evidence and being a weird NIMBY about anyone from Eastern Mass. Based on this, and the fact that your account is not even two months old, I’m done. Bye!
BovaDesnuts t1_j9p0df5 wrote
The region meaning the soil. Dirt doesn't care about economic development. People do. How is this going to benefit the people who are already there instead of displacing them, as happened all the way to Worcester. In other words, what makes you special?
Know what might work better? PVTA getting enough money to kick off streetcar service in Springfield would be a good start. It would be hard to manage it worse than the MBTA manages every rail they touch.
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9p3zri wrote
The region does NOT mean the soil. And it’s offensive that you think my sourced comments about economic benefits for the people in the region means I think I’m special. No. It means I do this work for a living and I understand how the rail will benefit the people in the region by creating economic development, local wealth, and jobs. Without sources showing backing up your analysis, your comments don’t mean anything. And your inflammatory response with complete inaccuracies do not help you.
Plus, it seems like the only thing you care about is Springfield. More people live in the valley than they do Springfield. And a trolley system in Springfield? Seriously, show me one needs assessment that suggests that Springfield would benefit from that. Show me one place that says that would be better than what PVTA already has.
The region is the soil… god, I can’t. The amount of bullshit in this one comment would take me pages to deconstruct and I have to get back to actually improving the environment and economy in the Pioneer Valley in my professional state level position. So again, until you have sources that mean something instead of ranting about things you don’t understand, bye!
BovaDesnuts t1_j9p5bdx wrote
>The region does NOT mean the soil. And it’s offensive that you think my sourced comments about economic benefits for the people in the region means I think I’m special.
Gentrification is well-studied. It has been creeping West across Metro West. Rent goes up, people head West where they can afford homes without changing jobs, or leave all-together. In case you're unfamiliar, it's a process whereby something brings wealthy individuals into the area, driving up costs and displacing local residents.
My question is how the rail, as proposed, will improve the lives of the people already in the Pioneer Valley instead of displace them as has happened from New Hampshire to Braintree to Worcester. Your link shows it'll improve the economy, sure. But who will benefit is more important to me than how large the benefits are.
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9p731x wrote
How does improving the economy is a specific area NOT benefit the people living in it? Jobs? Food? Accessibility to services, medical care, businesses… if your concern is keeping people for other areas out, that’s just ridiculous. And I see nothing from you backing up the negative impacts to Worcester and NH from adding public transport like railways. You need to back that shit up with evidence and studies.
You do know the gentrification is not the result solely of expanding public transport right? Have you seen the housing prices in the last three years WITHOUT the railway? Please, use sources or stop talking to me. I have real work to do.
BovaDesnuts t1_j9p7xz5 wrote
>How does improving the economy is a specific area NOT benefit the people living in it? Jobs? Food? Accessibility to services, medical care, businesses…
Oh, easy. When it doesn't come with improved conditions, it tends to lead to social cohesion and social capital loss while simultaneously displacing poor people and damaging their health.
The mistake you're making, and the one that the state documents refuse to address, is what happens to the people who are already there.
>You do know the gentrification is not the result solely of expanding public transport right? Have you seen the housing prices in the last three years WITHOUT the railway?
CDC indicates it's mostly driven by push factors, such as a lack of housing and massive job growth in nearby cities. Maybe we can think of a city with these issues nearby?
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9p8bxp wrote
That’s has nothing to do with Springfield and a railway. That’s the CDCs page on gentrification and there is NO tie in to the topic at hand.
Bye troll
BovaDesnuts t1_j9p8gf7 wrote
I only hope that in 20 years when you see what you've done to the poor people of WMA, you'll have the strength do the right thing.
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9p9ul1 wrote
Troll
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9p47yc wrote
By the way, where do you think Springfield gets his water from? It draws water from a variety of small hill towns in the valley. Springfield depends on the entire valley to function. Where do you think people who use the businesses in Springfield live? Elsewhere in the valley you’re being very shortsighted in offensive with your statements, and you can’t back any of it up with evidence.
BovaDesnuts t1_j9p5kh3 wrote
So maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, public transit in Springfield might, say, reduce congestion and car dependency in the area and make it a more attractive location to set up shop for people not working in labs in Boston?
I'm not opposed to regional transport, I'm very specifically opposed to the expansion of the Boston Metro. That's a concern I haven't seen addressed.
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9p6jwr wrote
The east west rail is NOT the MBTA. It can connect and work in conjunction with the MBTA. And you can’t just spitball with no evidence. Try reading the earth of documents that have been a published that I linked you too. And perhaps submit questions to the PVPC about the impacts of a trolley system in Springfield. Because it’s been rejected as a viable idea a bunch of firm. They’ll have peppers to back it up
BovaDesnuts t1_j9p6x1f wrote
>The east west rail is NOT the MBTA. It can connect and work in conjunction with the MBTA.
Metro area, not MBTA. You know. Metro West, but further west. The W towns, if you don't know where that is.
>And you can’t just spitball with no evidence. Try reading the earth of documents that have been a published that I linked you too.
I did. They're... not encouraging. It pretty much confirms my concerns that they're just looking to expand the Boston metro
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9p76uy wrote
Link to them then. You haven’t supported anything g you said. Provide sources or stop talking to me. I have real work to do benefiting the region.
BovaDesnuts t1_j9p82np wrote
Now now, you and me both know you can't prove a negative.
I have real work to do voting against you. No rail to Boston if I can help it
MOGicantbewitty t1_j9p87w9 wrote
Troll
novolog t1_j9obdz6 wrote
How long does it take you to get from Northampton to grand central on a train?
WaketheDeadDonuts t1_j9obx25 wrote
4.5 hours on a nice, comfy, wifi-equipped train
novolog t1_j9ocn2e wrote
Interesting. Do you use this amenity often?Wouldn’t it be much quicker to drive?
WaketheDeadDonuts t1_j9oi60r wrote
Ha, absolutely, but that's not the point.
Parking one's bike in sleepy Northampton, taking a nap, then waking up in Manhattan without having to find parking is a dream.
Still, driving and parking in Manhattan rarely takes less than 4 hours and can take significantly longer depending on traffic, so 4.5 hours on a train is nothing.
I can drive to Boston in under 2 hours, but between busing to Springfield and busing to Boston, it would be 6 hours...not even close.
PakkyT t1_j9ouc86 wrote
>Parking one's bike in sleepy Northampton, taking a nap, then waking up in Manhattan without having to find parking is a dream.
Or reading a book or playing a computer game or writing your own book or learning how to edit photo with Gimp or enjoying the scenery outside or ... ANYTHING other than clutching a steering wheel, staring straight ahead, and hoping you get there without an accident. 4+ hours of doing whatever you want always beats less than 4 hours driving.
billyrayvalentine1 t1_j9okq1x wrote
Welcome to Easthampton! It’s a great place 😎
novolog t1_j9oucxj wrote
Nice! And you don’t have to transfer, it’s just a straight shot in? How often do you do this?
WaketheDeadDonuts t1_j9p07er wrote
You can take the Vermonter direct to Penn Station. If you miss it or need more options, you can take one of a few trains to New Haven then switch to the Metro-North that goes to Grand Central.
I don't do it that often because I don't go to NYC that much anymore, but with Phish doing a 7 night residency this summer at Madison Square Garden...bet your bippy I'll be training it down to funk town!
PabloX68 t1_j9qgu2s wrote
People move to an area for a few reasons. One is the economy (i.e. jobs) is good, Two is that housing is affordable (which is partially a function of one), three is the area is nice (pleasant, low crime, etc) and four is family.
The rail line you describe doesn't help that much because nobody is commuting from Springfield to Boston (or even Worcester) on a daily basis. What the state needs to do is incentivize businesses to create good jobs in those cities like they did with the Seaport.
SuperSpartacus t1_j9rxjuz wrote
Such a terrible investment lmao.
A train from the PV to Boston would be WAYYYYY too long for a daily commute, so then what is the point?
WaketheDeadDonuts t1_j9ti73p wrote
Hard disagree.
East/West Rail would be around 1.75 hours from Springfield to Boston, pretty much the same length of Metro-North from New Haven to Grand Central.
Have you ever boarded the 6am train in New Haven on a weekday? It's often standing room only by Milford. Ditto the 5-6pm trains (aka the drinking trains) back to CT.
Mission_Albatross916 t1_j9rlq92 wrote
Absolutely. And loop in the Berkshires
SuperSpartacus t1_j9rxz53 wrote
Lmao are you being serious? Yeah let’s spend hundreds of millions of dollars to connect a rail line from Boston to one of the least populous regions in the state….uhhhh ok makes sense
Mission_Albatross916 t1_j9ry3kk wrote
😢 but it’s so lonely up here
NewspaperEconomy5473 t1_j9sgga7 wrote
Arguing against public transportation in a traffic-choked state like Massachusetts is ass-backwards. Telling people to "just drive" when we're not and never will be building new roads and highways to facilitate this traffic is dumb as hell.
Mission_Albatross916 t1_j9uqfo9 wrote
That’s great news!
BovaDesnuts t1_j9op7c8 wrote
Springfield doesn't want East-West rail. Boston doesn't need any more power.
homeostasis3434 t1_j9n6xuq wrote
I left Mass for southern Maine recently.
It was driven almost exclusively by the cost of housing.
Other costs (groceries, utilities, insurance etc), are pretty similar, so thats not breaking the bank. I pay higher state taxes here in Maine (also when I lived in virginia) so that's not it either.
The real difference in cost of living is rent and the price to purchase a home. In greater Boston, rent is tens of thousands more per year. And when you can't save because you're spending your money on rent, it's much harder to purchase a property that costs 4 times what you can find elsewhere.
It's really shitty actually, the locals up here blame the rise in housing prices mostly on massholes who move up here and can afford more expensive housing. This issue is pricing people out of their own communities, hours away.
Who knows, maybe I'll move back eventually, but it won't be anywhere within an hour of Boston if prices don't become more reasonable.
Technical_Hair_4383 t1_j9qc541 wrote
Your motivation to leave is pretty common. So when people point to states like Massachusetts and draw the wrong conclusions ("it's high taxes! etc) it's wise to consider that housing costs are the real driver. It's why a higher minimum wage can be a game-changer for so many people -- they can stay at their jobs and in their homes.
[deleted] t1_j9qh7ix wrote
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Excellent_Fee2252 t1_j9qy78f wrote
This is true. There is a supply shortage here.
Technical_Hair_4383 t1_j9r183c wrote
I agree that a rise in the minimum wage would not solve the housing shortage in MA, and I agree that much of the shortage is due to zoning restrictions that make more affordable housing difficult to develop in most parts of the state. Lots of NIMBYism.
elysium311 t1_j9rrmog wrote
But then this means knocking down forests and trees to built more housing. Some people enjoy nature. I've noticed that every time a woodsy area is knocked down (and it's been happening a lot lately) no trees are planted. It's so ugly !! Do we want to be a treeless state ? There are plenty of other places people can move to.
[deleted] t1_j9tifqk wrote
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elysium311 t1_j9uovbh wrote
Yes I'm actually in Florida now and am shocked by how close together the homes are. I like space
moxie-maniac t1_j9o778r wrote
People have been moving to New Hampshire and Florida, the top two states, from Mass, since the end of WWII. NH because housing is cheaper, making the southern part of the state a far suburb of greater Boston. Half the population of NH lives in greater Manchester and south, so within about a half hour drive to Mass. And people have been retiring to Florida, escaping the snow, and for many people, there are tax advantages moving to FLA.
ETA: no state income tax in FLA.
somegridplayer t1_j9o93vq wrote
>there are tax advantages moving to FLA
No there aren't.
moxie-maniac t1_j9obdrm wrote
No state income tax in FLA.
somegridplayer t1_j9obn9r wrote
Already drank the water didn't you?
Notmystationbro t1_j9om4xw wrote
somegridplayer t1_j9onthw wrote
A dying boomer site is your source? Boy you're not good at this.
Notmystationbro t1_j9ooxj7 wrote
Here ya go you young moron https://www.stateofflorida.com/taxes/
It’s ok that you hate lots of taxes for your lack of motivation and life choices
somegridplayer t1_j9oqmpz wrote
Florida has no infrastructure, quality of life is shit and services is complete shit and you children are being taught to be fucking stupid. You pay whether its taxes or otherwise.
NH has less of a tax burden and better services and QOL than Florida you stuffingless muppet. You and many like you have this obsession with tax burden being a gauge of how good a state is, with the lower being better. You do realize this is a coping mechanism for the fact that you're hoping warm weather can offset living in a shitty state that's probably marching its way towards insolvency right?
You're literally praying you die before the state collapses into a heap of failed policy hell.
>It’s ok that you hate lots of taxes
Better call 911, it's clear you had a stroke when you typed that.
Notmystationbro t1_j9owl6t wrote
Well I guess a lot of Americans are stupid for moving to Florida just for the weather. You do realize that Florida is the most moved to state in the country right? Weather is just a bonus. Read it and weep. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/states-where-americans-are-moving-florida-texas-north-carolina-south-carolina/
Simple google search my guy
giddy-girly-banana t1_j9ozfg7 wrote
Yes moving to an area that will be underwater in a half century is stupid.
Notmystationbro t1_j9ozqj9 wrote
Yeah because if that’s truly the case no bank would ever give out a home loan in those areas. 🙄
Is that all you have for a rebuttal?
Ah yes, the unmasked elites and their masked servants. Weird how the guys that keep telling you the seas are rising due to climate change and oceanfront property is going to be underwater seem completely unconcerned about it. Take Barry for instance, he told us that climate change was gong to have coastal city's underwater and yet he bought three properties, two of which are directly on the waterfront. Weird...almost as if climate change is a complete hoax and a grift.
Obamas has a multi million dollar house in Hawaii on the beach
nixiedust t1_j9peg7f wrote
>no bank would ever give out a home loan in those areas
omg....laughing so hard I can't even breathe....yes, of course, so no bank wants to give out grossly inflated loans they know you'll have to default on due to damage and lack of funds....
EXCEPT THAT IS LITERALLY HOW REAL ESTATE WORKS IN THE U.S.
You took the bait, buddy. Florida is queen of foreclosed homes bought by people with no money through predatory loans. Rich people can write off their losses, so they can afford to trash a vacation home and to enjoy the property while they can.
I'm betting you can't. So you jumped on a chance for a cheap home in a highly unregulated market at a price it will never be worth. That makes you the prey. I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't so ignorantly proud of the mistake you've made. You think like a poor person, assuming a billionaire values a home the way you have to. You made your decision as if you have millions to toss around, so here's both hoping you do and wondering why the fuck you didnt get an education if you could afford one instead of investing in floodlands. Now pardon me while I enjoy watching this leopard eat your face.
giddy-girly-banana t1_j9pb8jo wrote
Whoa! There’s a lot of crazy to unpack here.
You’re still worrying about masks? That’s so sad and pathetic.
The climate is warming, that’s obvious. If you think otherwise at this point, I’m not going to be able to convince you. Consider this though the oil companies themselves knew about it 30 years ago, and they’ve admitted as much. They’ve also engaged in a relentless propaganda campaign to hide that fact because it would destroy their business. Most of the outspoken climate deniers are funded by oil money. Except of course the losers who do it for free.
Good luck out there.
Notmystationbro t1_j9pbo5n wrote
No mention of elites buying shoreline property I see? Can’t question Obamas decision to do so right? I guess Democrats get a pass in your eyes
giddy-girly-banana t1_j9pdlml wrote
You are very confused. You think I care what Obama does, but you would be wrong.
nixiedust t1_j9pf3c6 wrote
Obama is fucking rich can can afford vacation properties he can lose. Do you not understand the simple fact that he's loaded and you aren't? You're such a dumb shit it's nuts....this is some basic financial shit, dude. You aren't Obama, or Trump, and will therefore be fucked and paying for a worthless property because you believed the bank man...jesus. It hurts to write it's so stupid.
Notmystationbro t1_j9pgh9z wrote
Oh I’m stupid for calling out the elites who purchase expensive waterfront properties, who buy luxury yachts, use private planes etc while preaching to us how climate change is a threat and we should not be dependent on fossil fuels etc? Im sorry but I don’t give a fuck what these people say who don’t practice what they preach but some people like yourself take their words as gospel. Rules for thee but not for me is their motto.
Edit- FYI people don’t purchase real estate to lose money, especially ocean front property. It’s called an investment. Also he tells the public that the coastlines will be under water in x amount of years while purchasing waterfront property. You can’t make this shit up! 🤣
nixiedust t1_j9piebb wrote
Yup, you're stupid as all fuck. And don't spew bullshit...you are only taking someone else's word as gospel, not thinking freely. By all means, call out the elite, most of them are completely disingenuous. But you are only calling out half of them, sucking down rich GOP talking points and acting like they apply to poor lil' you. You're a partisan lackey when you should be fighting capitalism, therefore you are only helping the elite get richer. Neither dem or gop gives a shit if you drown, so why are you shilling for the very elites that would bury you and your family? You've been had so hard it's ridiculous. And now you are saddled with a property you'll still be paying for when it's gone.
Notmystationbro t1_j9piyq3 wrote
Why would I fight capitalism? I worked all my life to get an excellent job and have an awesome family. I have a great 401k and benefits. How has capitalism treated me unfairly?
nixiedust t1_j9plv0g wrote
wait, is this "excellent job" the one you mention working with dishwashers at? wtf excellent job would that be? jesus fucking christ low standards abound....floridian restaurant worker goblin line cook....dude.
just know someone out there is laughing at ya. Nice chat.
Notmystationbro t1_j9pmsol wrote
I work as a manager at a corporate restaurant but points for trying to project me as a low paid employee
nixiedust t1_j9pkld6 wrote
lol
Okay, then, what's your fucking problem? Are you just pissy because some internet people said you made a stupid real estate move to live in one of the lowest rated states? Or because you don't agree with commonly accepted science? That's all it takes to rile you up?
I mean, I own a home in a much more desirable state and have saved well for retirement. Still concerned for the planet because I'm not an asshole and still think it's lousy you got suckered by a bank into a poor investment. But if you are happy with florida there's not much I can say...some just want less for themselves and the world.
p.s. just took a look at your post history and, unsurprisingly, you are a shitty racist as well. There's always a dogwhistle with you idiots. Hurry up and fall into the sea, already.
Notmystationbro t1_j9pn52w wrote
Says the crazy cat lady
FYI Florida is the top state people have moved to in 2022. 😉
nixiedust t1_j9pcv1t wrote
like they've got 50 years! Florida is doomed and its voters are just letting it sink. The latest studies I've seen predict coastal areas in FL underwater by 2040. Most Floridians don't realize their government has plans for this...it's not a "might happen" but a "how soon."
Hopefully some of the wildlife will outlive the human population. There's a ton of biodiversity down there when you remove the icky humans.
giddy-girly-banana t1_j9pfe35 wrote
I was being too generous I guess. I’m not worried about nature. It will survive. I am worried about all the Florida climate refugees moving and bringing their stupidity and hate along with them.
nixiedust t1_j9pjlrg wrote
I doubt they can afford it, and really feel for the non-stupid who are trapped. I really think most folks aren't bright to understand what will likely happen, but that's always been an unfortunate thing. All we can do is help those who are willing to be helped and willing to behave decently enough to be helped.
In short: gators and cool people come north, everyone else stay down with the mosquitos and bigotry.
somegridplayer t1_j9oxkxh wrote
Nearly 300,000 people per year die in Florida my guy. You're barely keeping up with killing yourselves off.
Look! I can pull out useless facts too!
[deleted] t1_j9oavwt wrote
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somegridplayer t1_j9obvv2 wrote
>slightly higher home insurance rates
Slightly higher? Either you were being grifted up here, or you're just making this up to justify moving to that hell hole.
Just so you're aware, the insurance market in FL is completely fucked and you'll end up paying for it. Likely it'll be excess lines only soon as everyone is GTFO due to the shitshow.
[deleted] t1_j9oc8zq wrote
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somegridplayer t1_j9ocdc0 wrote
Since when is almost double "slightly more"?
Don't worry, it's only going to keep going up.
WedSpassky t1_j9pexko wrote
Have fun living in a state THAT BANS BOOKS.
Cheap_Coffee t1_j9nzkml wrote
Thoughts? Much ado about very little.
- The article is reporting exits during 2021 NOT net changes in population.
- The change from '21-'22 for MA is a drop of 0.11%. That's one-tenth of one percent.
It would be interesting to compare year over year changes for other periods... but that might undermine the Globe article.
The article is a human interest piece not a news story.
OptimalConcept t1_j9obspg wrote
I actually dug around other sources to do the sort of comparisons you're talking about, and the Globe's overall conclusions look reasonable in the larger context to me too:
- Here's a graph of MA overall resident population changes over time. It pretty clearly shows that historically MA has tended towards steady overall population growth, and that the last two years have bucked this trend.
- Here's a graph of overall US population growth, showing that the decline is MA-specific and not an overall reflection of slowing population growth or an overall US exodus.
- Here's a graph of Maine's overall resident population changes over time. Note their recent trend looks like the inverse of Massachusetts: a sudden surge in population growth relative to historical trends that starts about the same time that the MA population growth stalls and reverses.
To me that data looks pretty consistent with the anecdotal comments we're seeing in this thread, too. (The top comment at the time I'm writing this is from /u/homeostasis3434 talking about how they recently moved from MA to ME.)
Cheap_Coffee t1_j9oc4k1 wrote
You should send this post to the article's author. Better yet, get a job with the Glob.
cyoobvertex t1_j9owqk4 wrote
"bucked the trend" is kinda strong language for a slight dip. If it starts increasing again by next year the trend would be the same.
UncleCustard t1_j9n1q2l wrote
While MA has a lot to offer, it is very expensive. I once had a conversation with friends who work in tech about the mass tax. We compared it to the "Apple tax" when buying apple products. The taxes of MA aren't necessarily too high, but the state itself has a high cost of living that feels like a tax. You get a lot for your money, but it may not be worth it to everyone. Definitely to some. With Covid changing the landscape of where and "how" people work everyday, those who were in MA because of the quality of jobs and potential opportunities, no longer have to stay. I grew up in western MA and always worked out east. Now, I could apply to a job in almost any state and live wherever I want to (within reason).
J0E_Blow t1_j9n4ryx wrote
That's nice champ.
Not to sound flippant or rude but at a certain point the state will be economically forced to confront the reality that to function it needs a normal income bell-curve. You "need" full-stack coders, but you also need maids, restaurant workers, state and town employees like teachers, etc... It's a problem if a majority of people can't afford to live here.
UncleCustard t1_j9n8xcf wrote
I don't disagree, I was just commenting on why people are likely leaving.
[deleted] t1_j9nd7ol wrote
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BovaDesnuts t1_j9op3kl wrote
>You "need" full-stack coders, but you also need maids, restaurant workers, state and town employees like teachers, etc...
That's why God gave us robots. Don't worry, those people will be mostly irrelevant soon. Just kick back and enjoy the man made horrors beyond your comprehension.
elysium311 t1_j9rs6tz wrote
Yep. I hear a lot of people go on about how great our hospitals are. If you're young and healthy you may not care about that. I'm almost 45 and I guess I don't see what's so fabulous about the healthcare in Boston. We have all these great doctors but it takes forever to get an appt for many of them and going to a dr in Boston is never convenient with the traffic. Schools are another thing where people try and justify the price. I get that but many people use private as well so public schools might not be that important. And the towns where the public schools are very good are of course very expensive.
Overall I think MA is probably a great place if you're rich and enjoy some cold weather.
OmegaNomos t1_j9o9xin wrote
I moved to CT. I got married and simply couldn’t afford to live where I grew up. It kind of sucks here but the pizza is good. It’s too bad Mass has done so little to deal with this issue.
charons-voyage t1_j9ol9k7 wrote
I agree it is too bad that Mass refuses to supply good pizza (relative to CT).
papa_jahn t1_j9pooub wrote
I mean, we have Cumbies pizza.
BovaDesnuts t1_j9opm32 wrote
The 91 corridor has better pizza
charons-voyage t1_j9ot2mn wrote
Yeah 91 in southern CT 😂
Potato_Octopi t1_j9n8a8u wrote
The state is too Boston-centric. Everyone's piling in to Boston, complaining about cost, while other parts of the state are more affordable.
charons-voyage t1_j9olpe4 wrote
I think it depends what you do for work, too. If you’re a scientist, that needs to be in the lab, chances are you’re gonna need to be near Boston. That’s a huge part of our labor pool. All the high-paying industries are near Boston, which attracts talent in those industries. Obviously if you’re a SWE and can WFH then it opens up opportunities out in the boonies. But for many people Boston IS all MA has to offer for jobs.
Investing in infrastructure to open up Springfield-Worchester-Boston travel (high speed rail for example) will allow people to get to Boston and hopefully encourage companies to build along that corridor as well instead of jamming their labs into Kendall Sq.
Potato_Octopi t1_j9or9di wrote
I think Western mass itself needs a better job market. Commuting to Boston is still Boston.
Industries like to cluster, so w. Mass needs different industries.
charons-voyage t1_j9osvya wrote
Agree, which will also be possible with better infrastructure that allows travel among the corridor to Boston, since all those areas can draw from same talent pool, thereby creating opportunities anywhere. Right now, if a company opens up in Worcester, there’s no talent pool to draw from since everyone wants to be near Boston. With a high speed train however you can live in Boston and work in Worcester. Then over time Worcester will be cooler and more hip and draw people wanting to live closer to there. Idk just my thoughts on this.
BovaDesnuts t1_j9opfm2 wrote
Hush. We don't want them. Let me live with my trees in peace
elysium311 t1_j9rsum8 wrote
Seriously. I've noticed in my town so many forest and woodsy areas getting chopped down lately and these big ugly houses get built. It's sad. No one seems to replant the trees or anything. Just a big bare space. I could care less about people needing a place to live. No one needs to destroy a forest and build a 2 million McMansion.
somegridplayer t1_j9o92dp wrote
Stop telling them the truth.
fakecrimesleep t1_j9onco8 wrote
Central and western mass + the “almost Rhode Island” parts of the state are still relatively cheap and a lot of people I know who went WFH but wanted to stay in-state have actually been able to buy homes. Just gotta accept you need to drive more which is kind of a bummer.
nixiedust t1_j9p4usf wrote
Yeah for us it was just a decision between tiny condo in Boston or single fam with yard on the RI border. Since we both WFH it was an easy choice. That said, property values have gone way up in the last few years and even our area is pricey now. But it's still doable if you are willing to deal with the tradeoffs, and urban amenities (diversity of food, better entertainment, arts & culture opportunities) are growing.
Better mass transport would help us to connect in all directions.
fakecrimesleep t1_j9q368l wrote
proximity to providence is a pretty good thing, especially if you’re an arts/music person or foodie. I actually like going into PVD more than downtown Boston these days. No one can afford to go out anymore + Our venues suck. Even allston is a ghost town a lot of the times. I definitely get why people are moving out in droves especially if they were just here for school.
nixiedust t1_j9r2m50 wrote
Completely agree. I lived in Brighton for more than a decade and never thought I'd leave, but now that I'm here Providence is more accessible and has a ton of cool stuff. Plus with Mansfield and Foxboro close you have easy access to all the big summer shows.
SuperSpartacus t1_j9ryf9z wrote
Providence has always been a cooler city than Boston
elysium311 t1_j9rsjz5 wrote
Sure other parts of the state are affordable but have you noticed traffic? A long commute can be a major drain on someone's life. No one wants to spend hours in the car to and from work or on a train. People are basically forced to spend money on the greater Boston area if they have an office job in Boston
Potato_Octopi t1_j9ru5o4 wrote
Yes, the state is too Boston-centric. That's my point. You're not focusing less on Boston by keeping jobs in Boston and forcing longer commutes. There needs to be opportunities elsewhere.
Sayoria t1_j9nuos2 wrote
No one really leaves because they hate it here. They leave because they are forced out. The red states are cheaper because no one wants to live in them. Massachusetts like others, offers opportunities for career development and growth. Self investment. Higher earnings. Etc.
The more free and beneficial the state, the more expensive it is because more people want to be there.
elysium311 t1_j9rsylr wrote
No one wants to live in the red states? Oh honey I'd be happy to live in a red state.
Sayoria t1_j9xo44r wrote
What's your demographic? You must not be at risk of anything major. I for one, would be killed in almost any red state. That's for sure.
elysium311 t1_ja33y3c wrote
White, female, married, 2 kids. If I was trans or lqbqt maybe I'd feel differently
Sayoria t1_ja37rq0 wrote
I myself, am trans. I'm more terrified to go anywhere in any red state than I would feel probably going to many other parts of the world that I should feel less safe in.
I guess at your point since the only level of minority status you have is being female, you'd just have to hope you don't get raped somewhere. Otherwise, you'd be forced to carry any child forced upon you.
elysium311 t1_ja3hvyu wrote
Well I'm 44 so the chances of me getting preggo from a one time encounter are pretty rare.
In any case I live in MA and will likely always live here due to family ties.
[deleted] t1_j9o90nv wrote
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Sayoria t1_j9o9nr1 wrote
I literally said in my first sentence that people don't move because they hate it. Then you just said after "I don't hate it".... and that it was comfortable.
That's my point. No one 'hates' living here.
tomphammer t1_j9pw48j wrote
it sounds like your quality of life is better because you’re wealthy enough to be insulated from the things that make life truly suck.
But thanks for the continued property taxes at least.
GWS2004 t1_j9ospks wrote
They are absolutely correct.
Ss360x t1_j9n1e6b wrote
Traffic begs to differ
Cheap_Coffee t1_j9nzms1 wrote
So do housing prices.
thoggin t1_j9npktl wrote
Growing up in one of the rougher towns in eastern mass it was always my back up plan to live in an apartment here if things didn’t work out. Then when I was commuting to college in Boston I saw advertising for condos that were recently built in my town and I knew it was game over. Can’t even afford to live in the town I once thought was a shit hole.
Snopes1 t1_j9pbord wrote
Massachusetts is running an experiment called:
"What happens if we gentrify an entire metro area of 2-4 million people."
Tune in to hear the results from Florida, Southern NH, Providence area, and Worcester.
bostonmacosx t1_j9r0tlz wrote
You forgot attack the suburbs......so even more people move out of mass.....instead of fixing problems.....just screw everyone else....it's the Massachusetts way.....look at the seaport...what a cluster of poor people get the hell out..for all the talk Wu and former democratic mayors talk..they are like all the other politicians....give me new shiny and expensive and screw everything else...we're going to push the lower incomes to the suburbs and maybe they can afford to commute into boston....
"The housing is high end and expensive, developers included little affordable housing, and public transportation access is limited. Public funds are behind Seaport, and the neighborhood should be available to all Boston residents, argues Walker."
Anthraxkix t1_j9rxfg5 wrote
Jesus Christ, you can write in sentences and use punctuation besides ...
BobQuasit t1_j9n76wt wrote
I'm not surprised. The state is too goddamned expensive, and inflation isn't making it any easier to survive here!
warlocc_ t1_j9oawl0 wrote
You mean if you do nothing to stop abuse of living costs, run high taxes, and put none of it into visible infrastructure (but waste it on limousine liberal vanity projects), people will get fed up and/or priced out?
Who could possibly have predicted that?
TKInstinct t1_j9p29v6 wrote
If I'm not mistaken, out taxes are actually median for the country.
warlocc_ t1_j9q2kjg wrote
Probably. They feel awful high when you look at the roads or infrastructure outside of Boston, though.
JaneFairfaxCult t1_j9og2uj wrote
What vanity projects?
[deleted] t1_j9ok8c9 wrote
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JaneFairfaxCult t1_j9ow98u wrote
That sounds misguided but I suspect the majority of the waste in this state is plain old corruption, not liberal or conservative. Just the same old BS as in most states.
warlocc_ t1_j9ouycr wrote
Virtually all of them?
An easy example is the MLK statue they just did.
JaneFairfaxCult t1_j9ovfb3 wrote
That was privately funded.
[deleted] t1_j9oj7w6 wrote
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Prestigious_Ad5677 t1_j9oidun wrote
You’re all overlooking one important aspect of this issue— you can blame politicians and colleges for making cities and towns unaffordable for renting and buying homes.
They have taken full control over real estate. Lots of shoddy development by unskilled labor building condos.
I grew up within a 4 mile radius of Cambridge/Somerville and have been sounding the alarms at town meetings for over a decade.
Nothing will change. Colleges are running things now and pols are only happy to reap the benefits to include their career ambitions.
There are good landlords and bad landlords — the bad don’t maintain rentals, however many who are fair, are caught in the same trap who do maintain their units and still charge below market rates.
However, that’s now changed due to steady increases in real estate tax and cost of the price gouging contractors who are also to blame for the unaffordability in this area. They assume every landlord is a millionaire due to high rents. That is an incorrect assumption. Many are single dwelling home owner occupied landlords trying to make ends meet. They do this intentionally to drive us out, but many of us can sail along until the next wave. If you paid attention to the past 20 years, you understand the cycles. It will eventually level off but remain a place that only the wealthy can afford. When WS decides to tank investments, maybe there will be a break in development but their goal date is 2030 in this region. The predicted date for completion of a four mile sprawling campus for 3 colleges who no longer will be concerned with babysitting dormitories- they took our properties so they won’t have to deal with liabilities.
There’s also clear evidence of elder discrimination and abandonment as more monied liberals like we saw take over San Francisco, causing this issue.
Some of the pols have lost sight of their responsibilities towards those they have sworn to protect and are guilty of conflict of interest due to taking advantage of family interests in development.
Thousands have been driven out to build wet labs and entrepreneurial businesses by colleges. Most of this is not shared with the media for distribution.
I left a 25 year career in academia and happy to say I’m out. It’s only going to get worse. Realtors are renting out apartments and condos throughout winter this year. It’s no longer a September 1st starting date.
There is a big surge in more monied seekers looking to live here and GLX, is also the catalyst that got us here.
I have family in NH who left 20 years ago. They retired from contracting businesses, who knew the incoming changes due to contacts early on. But they are 200 miles north near Franconia. It’s still too rural a place for those raised in urban communities. Every region has their advantages and downside. Do your research before you move.
Prestigious_Ad5677 t1_j9pt7th wrote
I also wanted to mention that many employees collectively of Cambridge/Somerville wanted the Grand Junction Project to move forward, but the NIMBY crowd of Cambridge-port stopped it. Those unfamiliar, the plan consisted of using the freight line in Kendall Square in order to provide services for those living beyond city limits. It would serve to encourage more commuters to use public transportation rather than their vehicles.
So for those who continually rant about cars, they should be asking the pols in Cambridge why they allowed the Brahmins of Cambridge to prevent a perfectly good remedy to the problems with the overcrowded roadway system we have in the 4 mile radius and highways that surround it and push the project through.
This article below is exactly the same problem that occurred which was about the Red Line Extension plan that was stopped as well. The NIMBY crowd in Arlington- Lexington- Bedford pushed back on the political establishment and they also got the church involved (Arlington), cited “undesirables would be moving in”, as their reasoning so Alewife became the last stop.
Here is the article that outlines more detail of the issues with NIMBYISM in this region as it based on unsubstantiated rumors to suggest home values would plummet.
https://tuftsobserver.org/red-tape-why-the-red-line-stopped-short/
Illustrious-Nose3100 t1_j9opuw5 wrote
Good
BigScoops96 t1_j9pelvd wrote
I have to drive to Boston/Cambridge everyday for work and I don’t want to drive 2-3 hours one way so I’m kinda forced to try and stay within like a 25 mile radius of Boston
[deleted] t1_j9o8pbt wrote
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Left-Star2240 t1_j9oagzo wrote
I’m hoping to relocate in the next year because rent is too expensive.
lostmindplzhelp t1_j9osy7h wrote
Gentrification, jobs concentrated into a few areas, towns refusing to allow higher density housing. If I were a young person starting out or a retiree I would probably leave too
koebelin t1_j9oezyf wrote
The people moving in are higher income and cause rent increases. Substitution based on income.
Notmystationbro t1_j9olwr1 wrote
Elections have consequences
Crimson-Forever t1_j9pfhgg wrote
I've thought about New Hampshire, I am paying 2100 rent for a small 2 bedroom in Lawrence, MA and that gets me slightly more than an hour morning commute into Boston. The problem is the closest places in New Hampshire (Salem / Nashua) pushes that up to to more than 3 hours a day commuting. Did that for 6 years, don't want to go back.
Waggmans t1_j9pi432 wrote
I would sell my place but I can't afford to move anywhere.
bostonmacosx t1_j9qz8f2 wrote
So that is about 22,800 units of housing which will be opening up....if this happens year after year....
Wise_Check6255 t1_j9r9439 wrote
Yup, it's too expensive to live in this state. Sure it gets cheaper as you get to the middle and western parts of the state, but I want to stay relatively close to the coast. I've been looking to buy some land in NH.
elysium311 t1_j9rr4hp wrote
I'm not surprised to hear that people are leaving MA. Covid and remote work made people realize that they didn't need a Boston office. I was already surprised by the amount of people moving here over the past decade and what they'd pay for a home. A million for a 3 bed 2 bath just to be close to an office? No thanks. Even with a high salary it doesn't seem like it's worth it. For what? I'm in FL right now and I could get used to this. Unfortunately I have to leave tomorrow.
somegridplayer t1_j9o90qc wrote
Don't let the door hit you in the ass.
sips medium iced regular
M_Shulman t1_j9odxru wrote
Get outta here with your medium
somegridplayer t1_j9oei1s wrote
But if I shotgun a large I'll be desperate for another dunks to take a piss at 45min later.
pillbinge t1_j9pt4cz wrote
States have been reduced to entities that cater to consumers. The speed at which things have changed isn't manageable. It's why so many nations haven't even figured it out, let alone states that have less power.
Boston is too important to the state and the region. That's not good. You see the same sorts of things with monopolies, and Boston is a monopoly. People are leaving MA for a lot of reasons, but an MA where people don't leave isn't necessarily one where people come to. The region is too crowded. Sorry, but it is. Housing is too spread out and car-dependent. The area has changed even since I was a kid and I was a kid not too long ago. There's no direction other than up for some people.
We need more housing, we need more people, we need more more more. That's not going to work even if everyone's onboard. MA is trying to manage a neoliberal society that's "post" production (really just moved abroad), but these kinds of jobs that follow are weak and ephemeral. How can you build up anywhere when a decade could spell disaster for a whole industry - and when other recessions loom?
MA is no different from so many other places. It's just trying to always play with big dogs, and it's tiresome.
I'm from here, so it's different. Why do people move here, though? Opportunity. They move elsewhere as a secondary option. That means we're constantly trying to keep up with other trends just to say attractive, but attractive to whom? Things were way different decades back, but the economy was totally different too. Are we supposed to want more people here? We can't handle them. Are we supposed to want fewer?
Ideally, the state would make sure that the region were condensed in some parts and that industry were spread out. People should be asking "Boston, Worcester, or Springfield" at a minimum. They don't. It sucks. This is why we have people scrambling for the same things, so that when they can't live in Boston, they often jump states - not even regions within MA.
Flatout_87 t1_j9pvmw5 wrote
Well, people with no strong ideologies will choose the places to live where they can get more from their dollars. It’s just the truth. If i can have a job in Dallas where i can make above 85k, i will live there without any hesitation. (And i’m not even white, also I’m gay.)
Technical_Hair_4383 t1_j9qcd7q wrote
Somebody get DeSantis and Abbott on the phone -- they can scout up some residents double-quick and have them on buses here inside of a week!
Try_Bofa t1_j9qzo4n wrote
You can legit move to Rhode Island and have pretty much the same experience but way cheaper rent and housing.
Mass is insanely expensive to live in
[deleted] t1_j9owpbh wrote
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March_Latter t1_j9qcz8t wrote
57000 is a bit more than expected. I would guess without interviewing those who have left its cost more than anything. Personal freedoms do come into play but I think only after you realize you do not have them.
Downrightregret t1_j9qdtsc wrote
Massachusetts is a terrible state and getting worse. The obscene cost of living just adds to the misery
[deleted] t1_j9qllij wrote
Summerholiday
xXGreco t1_j9qsxmn wrote
I would leave my state too if it was a liberal cesspool
magik779 t1_j9rqnjt wrote
Take me with you.
LetsPlayCanasta t1_j9y9pek wrote
Look at the graph in the linked article at states gaining population and states losing population.
It's not a mystery.
pgp02145 t1_ja13m63 wrote
Some are definitely leaving due to cost of living. Now that you can WFH in a lot of jobs, why not do so from NH where housing costs less and you get a 5% raise with no income tax.
Macasumba t1_j9o322r wrote
More for me (eveel laugh)
joeyrog88 t1_j9p97xf wrote
As my one year old says "BYE!"
NoJacket8798 t1_j9qic88 wrote
We’re too boss for them
elykl12 t1_j9p61vd wrote
Making 50K in Boston, seriously weighing leaving soon
JameelWallace t1_j9rcfzj wrote
Oh no, this white family who could afford to buy a home in a wealthy community had to go buy another home that they could also afford. They’re in my thoughts and prayers.
JockenShock72 t1_j9otq1o wrote
Because the Boston/Greater Boston is a rotting deplorable shithole.
t_11 t1_j9n5mcj wrote
Good riddance. The fuck out of here.The net change of the population didn’t show any significant reduction. Plus we’re crowded.
BOSBoatMan t1_j9nlqx7 wrote
California, NY, NJ, and MA.
What do they have in common?
Lost their minds during COVID, extremely high cost of living, ridiculous gun laws…and a defecting population.
JaneFairfaxCult t1_j9ofy5l wrote
I love our gun laws.
BOSBoatMan t1_j9ore3n wrote
No offense but you have an extremely false sense of security. Unlike those of you that wished the unvaxxed to die, I hope you never learn the lesson first hand.
ZaphodG t1_j9nyry1 wrote
Right. So the people leaving are the poorly educated Trumpers who lack the job skills to afford the housing.
Adorable_List3836 t1_j9o37a6 wrote
Jesus Christ dude, get over it, this division isn’t going to help anybody
-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_j9oblf1 wrote
>Right. So the people leaving are the poorly educated Trumpers who lack the job skills to afford the housing.
So you make a statement like that and think you are the educated one? Lmao
ZaphodG t1_j9ofhhk wrote
Sure. Good school. Hard major. Good grades. No “they’re gonna take mah gunz” here.
-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_j9tkczg wrote
I guess education isn't always a good measurement for intelligence.
[deleted] t1_j9ow7ml wrote
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AnteaterEastern2811 t1_j9o3pqh wrote
Too much of the state pop is centered around Boston. Lots of affordable housing in MA but everything requires driving. Build the infrastructure to make Boston-Worcester-Springfield a connected corridor and it will open up options for people besides leaving the state.