This idea of building outdoor malls with a parking area in the middle

Submitted by Sayoria t3_11ymex5 in massachusetts

I live in the south shore area so sorry for the examples exclusively south-of-Boston but Derby Street and the new Hanover locations specifically come to mind here.

I know malls are pretty much going 'out' and it seems like, for some whacked out reason, we are turning them into outdoor malls with a massive parking lot in the center of them. I don't get this direction.

We live in one of the northern states. For a place like Florida or California, sure. You are probably likely to be outside a lot..... but why are they doing so many of these kinds of places? South Bay Plaza takes a while to cross to get to a store on the other side. Like, who wants to cut across a parking lot to get to another store like that?

When I was in Chicago, I stayed near a place called Old Orchard. They did this outside thing but they had all the areas like a mall but outdoors. Or Oakbrook was another that did this. The parking lots were around the outer parimeters of the stores and everything was just, nicely clustered together. Could run from one store to another easy.

Inconvenience. Outdoor weather concerns. Dealing with drivers in the center just to cross over. I just don't know why we keep building places like this. It's the dumbest direction I've ever seen to take a plaza, especially in the north.

22

Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

wet_cupcake t1_jd8b6ap wrote

They’re starting to implement more successful master plans. Can’t say as much in the South Shore but Assembly Row is an incredible example of how proper phasing and master planning for retail/housing/parking can work on an urban scale.

Clustering retail with housing on top has been successful for centuries throughout the world. I’ve been to Derby Street and a few other strip malls and they unfortunately are often large wastelands of asphalt.

The approach of defining small neighborhoods or clusters with ample green space will always be more successful. MarketStreet Lynnfield is a great example of how to achieve this in a suburban setting. Developers should be taking notes. South shore doesn’t need more asphalt. It needs user friendly nodes where people can interact besides just having to shop.

32

zeratul98 t1_jd8ib1q wrote

Assembly Row is truly garbage. It's a suburban shopping mall masquerading as a pedestrian shopping center. Look at the actual buildings there: they're largely parking structures. Parking everywhere. And the only grocery store in that area sits in front of a massive parking lot. The streets there are awful to cross because they're four lanes wide.

1

oneMadRssn t1_jd9ieym wrote

>Assembly Row is truly garbage.

I think that's harsh. Parking is unfortunately a necessity, but the new buildings have dense multi-level parking or undergrounds parking instead of a giant lot. I agree it has a suburban shopping mall feel, but new neighborhoods always feel fake until enough time passes for them to develop their own character through the people that live there. It's still all very new and they haven't even finishing redeveloping that whole neighborhood.

I have my beef with Assembly Row, it's far from perfect. But look at they've done. They build a new T stop - the first new T stop in a long time. The car dependency is better managed and controlled there than pretty much any other Cambridge/Boston neighborhood. It's the exact kind of dense mixed-use development that study after study shows we need - light retail, commercial, and a mix of rental and owned residential apartments and condos. Within the new neighborhood, it is walkable and there is T access, there is a small grocery store, there is a variety of restaurants and bars and shops, a state-of-the-art movie theater, and kids activities.

If even a quarter of new development or redevelopment in the Boston area was as good as Assembly Row, I think we would all greatly benefit from it.

15

[deleted] t1_jdablvr wrote

I've walked it from union so I know it can be done but it feels very disjointed, not organically connected to the surrounding area. Think that's my biggest gripe. Bury that fucking highway

8

zeratul98 t1_jd9oqyf wrote

It's a step up from lots of other development for sure, but I think it's a disappointing show for a new development. I'm fairly new to the area, so i wont claim to know its history, but It feels like something that started as a great mixed use project and then got absolutely kneecapped by more car nonsense. The parking structures could have been more shops, offices, and/or more (maybe even affordable) apartments. Grand Union Blvd is just way too wide. Crossing such a wide stroad and then a giant parking lot to get to the Trader Joe's isn't appealing or inviting to pedestrians. The area very much feels like several disconnected sections, only one of which seems designed for pedestrians

2

oneMadRssn t1_jd9wnja wrote

I agree about that 4 lane street. If you can believe it, the newer denser side of that street used to basically be just empty space and flat single-level parking lots.

I think long term the plan is to knock down that strip mall (Trader Joes, TJ Maxx, all of it) and build a similar-style development as on the other side. And at the same time, that street will be narrowed.

In terms of parking, as much as I would love to have less parking, look at the reality - those parking structures are almost always full despite the fact that the area has a subway stop and ample bus service. Evidence suggests that the amount of parking there is the minimum amount required, if not less than required. What more can they do? I suppose they could make it all tandem valet parking with car elevators instead of ramps to really maximize space, but that is clearly cost prohibitive. The multi-level and garage parking they build is pretty must as dense as we can go without drastic measures.

I think the biggest problem with Assembly is the fact that it's on a sort of accessibility island. There is water to the north and east. a very very wide almost freeway (Fellsway) to the west, and an elevated highway to the south (I93). So while I think they did about as much as anyone could ask by building a T stop, that whole section of town is not easy to get to quickly without a car unless you happen to coming from somewhere on the Orange Line or happen to be on one of the bus routes that goes to Assembly.

5

zeratul98 t1_jdanl5t wrote

I think it's a mistake to think that parking utilization is a strong indicator of parking need. (I'm also rather doubtful that parking gets anywhere close to 100% utilized, but that's a different topic)

The question really is, if we removed 25% of parking spaces in Assembly, what would happen? Would 25% of current drivers disappear entirely, or would some of that crowd just switch to buses, trains, or walking? Do they drive because they have to or because they want to? Would the decrease in cars encourage more foot and bike traffic in the area?

Maybe the bottleneck isn't the capacity of the parking lots, but the capacity of the businesses. After all, restaurants can only seat so many people, bowling alleys only have so many lanes, etc. In that case, fewer drivers just means a more attractive area for people to take the train to. Remember that lots of the parking in the area is for residents. They don't need cars to go to Assembly, they live there.

It's important to remember that cars aren't people. Just because we make an area less appealing to cars doesn't mean we've made the area less appealing.

And then there's the whole concept of what we would replace that parking with. If we're talking about the parking structures, that could be more ground floor retail creating demand and more upper floor housing giving the area plenty more people to frequent the shops and restaurants. Cars are big, like, really big. A typical parking space is around 130-150 sq ft., (plus garages have to have the lanes to drive in and out). So three or four parking spaces is the same size of a studio apartment

1

wet_cupcake t1_jd8iih6 wrote

Again. They’re phasing. The final master plan shows a much better product. It unfortunately just takes time.

Master Plan

11

zeratul98 t1_jd8ugw2 wrote

Thanks for this, i haven't seen it before. I'll take a more thorough look when I've got the time.

I think my main complaint with assembly is that they made a huge commitment to having an incredible amount of parking in the area which means 1) lots of wasted space 2) lots of cars ruining the space and 3) lots of political resistance to reducing car usage in the area

6

Tempest_1 t1_jd93f7r wrote

Gonna have to disagree. I’ve had plenty of day trips and nighttime excursions when i never had a car because of the T stop.

If you live on the orange line it’s hella convenient.

4

larrybird56 t1_jdb3yxb wrote

I worked at Market Street for 7 years and it really is pretty amazing. Truly serves as Lynnfield's downtown.

1

wet_cupcake t1_jdb45hz wrote

Agreed. Any time I visit family in Lynn we pop over to Market Street. Great development

0

AboyNamedBort t1_jd93npg wrote

Assembly Row isn't incredible. Its an outdoor shopping mall next to a a T station yet they dedicated 90% of the space to cars. The best part about indoor malls is no cars yet they fucked that up. It could have been incredible if they designed it for people instead of SUVs from the suburbs.

0

tsoplj t1_jd9h7wp wrote

Assembly Row is a true celebration of mediocrity. The other redditor was accurate in calling it garbage.

0

wet_cupcake t1_jd9htmb wrote

Again, it’s not done. Once complete it will be a great precedent for how to develop new retail mixed used open air projects.

1

gamingaway t1_jd8kqp8 wrote

Have you been to Legacy Place in Dedham? It's crazy busy year round, they did a pretty good job with the design for an outdoor mall.

11

soraya-sayu t1_jd97avy wrote

Gotta disagree there. Parking is always a pain and pedestrians are not safe trying to cross the parking area b/c of everyone hustling for an open space. The only calm way to traverse it is by walking the perimeter…

5

Victor_Korchnoi t1_jd9ggcp wrote

Parking is not a pain. There is a huge garage—just go in the garage.

But yeah, the fact that you need to walk through a huge parking lot kinda kills the vibe.

4

soraya-sayu t1_jd9tx7j wrote

The garage (and sometimes over by the whole foods) is easier, but as you say defeats the point of the quick errand trip.

1

gamingaway t1_jd9fcmy wrote

Walking the perimeter isn't that bad. If you park in the garage it's always easy to find a spot. I'm not saying it's perfect because I don't think that's possible in any mall, but it's definitely popular.

1

soraya-sayu t1_jd9u4zg wrote

I agree the garage is easier, but it defeats the purpose if the quick errand trip, which was ostensibly the whole point of the central parking design.

1

SLEEyawnPY t1_jdad953 wrote

>Have you been to Legacy Place in Dedham? It's crazy busy year round

Yeah that's why I try to avoid going, traffic-wise that area is a mess most of the time.

1

phonesmahones t1_jd8xcml wrote

Lately I have been thinking about how it’s kind of funny that we went from strip malls, to indoor malls, and back to glorified strip malls.

I think a lot of people avoid malls because they just want to go to the one store they want to visit, and not necessarily to walk around and browse. The new outdoor malls give the feel of them being more convenient because you don’t have to park in a garage and then walk the length of the mall to get to the store you want to go to - but yeah, parking is usually kind of rough at them and if you are going to more than one store, there’s a good chance the walk is longer.

I like the outdoor malls better, but I also decided I hate malls in general a few years back, so I’m a little biased.

10

[deleted] t1_jdacezh wrote

People avoid malls because they were all built an hour drive from the houses and then traffic has only been getting worse and worse. The point of places like assembly is that they're meant to weave into the urban fabric (bit of a cliche phrase at this point I know) and replicate what makes more natural places possible while turning it up to eleven even to the point it's almost like a charicature of it's own idea. But also keep mind assembly is still an unfinished project

1

FIFAFanboy2023 t1_jd8za5v wrote

Trust me, you don't want to be outside in Florida outside of the winter months.

9

hairshirtofpurpose t1_jdci3r7 wrote

Trust me, you don't want to be in Florida ever.

2

FIFAFanboy2023 t1_jdcn3cx wrote

I grew up in Florida. I know all about it. It's lovely in the fall and spring if you avoid most of the people.

1

majoroutage t1_jd8oqq1 wrote

The "parking lot in the middle" is because certain types of shoppers like having direct access to the stores they want to visit (or to feel like they do). Find where you want to go, park in front of it, and walk inside. Which is fair, to a certain extent.

But then you have the developers that just go too far and completely ignore the walkability aspects that other shoppers may enjoy.

There's a happy medium in there somewhere, it's just going to take someone willing to find it.

8

Prolapsia t1_jdaew6s wrote

They did this to the shoppers world mall in Framingham years ago. They took that nice open air mall and just ruined it.

5

kwk1231 t1_jdagdbl wrote

I was hoping to find a reference to Shoppers World in this thread! That was a place that was actually enjoyable to shop in. And they had the live reindeer in the middle at Christmas time.

3

wintersicyblast t1_jdajfyv wrote

Yes, the reindeer! And Jordan Marsh bb muffins and the fountain :)

2

shrinktb t1_jdahcoc wrote

Shoppers world went from a pleasantly nostalgic place to a circle of hell. The traffic patterns are just…oof.

3

kissmekate48 t1_jd9a654 wrote

I’ve heard these called power centers and they’re car-centric and IMO, suck. People will drive and re-park rather than walk. And walking means crossing traffic sometimes multiple times in front of distracted drivers looking for parking.

4

Sayoria OP t1_jd9dulo wrote

See, this is one of those things that just make me wonder why. I have been reading everyone else's opinions in here and yeah, I get some points, but this is just how I see it. Like, needless traffic just to get to the store across the way, and yeah, I have definitely seen (and done so myself) people getting into cars on one end and driving to the other.

I dunno. I really wish it was all inverted with the cars on the parimeter..... or atleast put a skybridge or two across the lot. I'd love to see how the world would be laid out of cars were never the ideal when these things were built. More rapid transit would be amazing. More catering to your average walker.

2

KitchenBreadfruit816 t1_jda90hs wrote

Can I just add what a horrible vision they had for the new Woburn village…you are ASKING for an accident in that clusterfuck. Here’s an idea , how about a god damn multi story parking structure if you gonna do that shit

3

Nayzo t1_jdb3vgt wrote

Came here looking for this dumpster fire being called out. I hate that lot, it gives me such anxiety. Too much going on in there, without enough exit points to the surrounding roads. That said, I do love that little right turn only exit they put in on the market basket side. I have to try going in by the Chinese restaurant, I hear that way sucks a bit less.

1

KitchenBreadfruit816 t1_jdb8iqb wrote

If I was a Woburn city planner, here is the proper way I would have done it, vertical ramps in and out of commerce way and Washington street into a 5-6 story parking structure

2

LoanWolf888 t1_jdb2cym wrote

These outdoor malls are also missing food courts. Sometimes I want to grab something quick to eat or eat from a combination of restaurants.

2

BobQuasit t1_jd8eavf wrote

Wrentham Outlets never made any sense to me. Why make people walk outside when the weather is bad so often? Although with climate change (who would have believed we'd have a winter with no snow?) that might actually become a little more practical.

At least until the heat gets so bad that people start dropping dead of heatstroke when they're walking outside!

1

throwsplasticattrees t1_jd8huko wrote

>Why make people walk outside when the weather is bad so often?

Because people will do it and they don't have to heat and cool the space.

13

jp_jellyroll t1_jd8ygjy wrote

They'll do it for the discount prices on designer goods. People will stab you in the chest to get 50% off last year's Gucci sunglasses. By comparison, a little cold & rain is nothing.

1

LowkeyPony t1_jd938cq wrote

Merrimack Outlets. No tax. Was there last weekend and there were buses pulling in.

2

wet_cupcake t1_jd95x8g wrote

My first job when I was a kid was at the Wrentham Outlets. Every day, rain or shine, busses lined up to drop off tourists. Insane because they would try to barter with you. Nothing like a 15 year old kid having to explain that the price is the price and we don’t trade goods.

2

BobQuasit t1_jd8sq40 wrote

And yet the Wrentham outlets are an upscale place for foreign tourists.

−4

majoroutage t1_jd92aiz wrote

The dark arts of logistics sometimes dictate that it's cheaper and more sensible for them to fill an extra suitcase with quality products that will last than to ever buy the Walmart grade shit back home.

EDIT. And it's not just manufactured clothing either. Some of these people know how to clear out textile outlets too.

5

Jew-betcha t1_jd95j0a wrote

Eh it's just a return to 50s style architecture, and I like open air malls, when they're not built on land that could be easily used for more useful or beneficial things like affordable housing. They remind me a bit of where I lived for a couple years in WA, where the only real indoor mall was tiny & everyone went to the outdoor mall that hasn't significantly changed since the 1950s instead bc they just had more. It's near the Hanford site & the whole place sort of advertises itself as a "nuke town" so the whole thing felt very atompunk/retrofuturist.

1

Proof-Variation7005 t1_jd9y8ly wrote

I get why these are becoming chic but I think we should go retro and just make everything like the old shopper's world and do open area stadiums surrounded by stores.

1

[deleted] t1_jdaaywy wrote

Car centric infrastructure is bad for everyone

1

HebrewHammer14 t1_jdau4gf wrote

All that asphalt and I still can’t find parking at market basket

1

[deleted] t1_jdc9xw1 wrote

[deleted]

1

northursalia t1_jdciux6 wrote

There were no parking lots in the middle of Shopper's World in the 50s and 60s, nor the 70s through the teardown/rebuild in the early 90s. It used to be basically a rectangle of stores on two levels, anchor stores on the ends, open air to a large courtyard inside, with a sea of parking lot around it. It had grass, pathways, bushes, trees, fountains, and had seasonal items like Christmas decorations and a petting zoo in the courtyard.

1

Louie-XVI t1_jdcxtav wrote

Oh that's cool! I assumed it was always a parking lot

2