Submitted by nofog2234 t3_xtdnbn in massachusetts
Do you believe there is any chance this city gentrifies like Worcester has begun to? I think that if you could get some sort of tech startup spillover from Amherst perhaps there is a chance. Portland Maine is far more remote and was a really rundown post industrial town for years and look at property values up there now. I just love to speculate on this sort of stuff.
Plus, Yarmouth, Falmouth, Cape Elizabeth, etc. are all a stones throw from Portland. You have young (30s) people with resources filling up the surrounding communities for access to the schools. Those people support the breweries, restaurants, stores and arts around Portland.
So right! People love being by the ocean. All Springfield has is Connecticut River which is not even close.
They should try to just be a bar and nightlife city. I’d definitely visit for that. Like providence.
No. Not enough good paying jobs and better living options elsewhere. A place like Holyoke is more likely because it’s already seeing the spillover from easthampton and Northampton.
and holyoke is starting to make those moves. i'm starting to see the potential for this city to take off, and i just hope people embrace that instead of grasping at negative perceptions.
It should. The older holyokers with those negative perceptions are slowly losing power. The younger holyokers are getting more involve and don’t necessarily have those negative perceptions.
Underlining this, they’re also about to lose their second biggest employer (Smith and Wesson) and many of their other job drivers aren’t exactly prime for growth (US Postal Service and the Springfield Republican, for example).
Their only real hope for growth is in logistics-they need an Amazon or a Walmart to build a supercenter there
And they have canals and that’s cool to me for some reason
The canals offer hydroelectricity to the businesses on them. The dam gives the city most of its power.
See! That’s a really cool fact about Holyoke.
By gentrifies, do you mean recovers?
Yes. Meaning a good jobs market, lowered crime rates, etc...
Springfield needs better economic opportunities and a clear set of goals of how to improve on the city and lessen its woes. Definitely good bones, but there is much more that needs to be done. Good community colleges and local universities that do want well for the community as well. I think those should be leveraged among other things to make it a regional powerhouse.
If Sarno and the entire springfield PD get yeeted off the face of the planet, MAYBE.
Springfield is bad, and they actively try to make it worse.
Was driving through there last week looking and wondering the same thing, some amazing architecture and landscape potential! Such a historic city #3 population
There are some weird assumptions here, the first being that gentrification is a desirable thing. The process involves driving out all the lower income and working class residents so a bunch of bougey pricks can get a latte without the risk of encountering poor people. Where are all the current residents supposed to go when the already unaffordable housing becomes literally impossible for them to pay for?
Second, Springfield and all the rest of the deindustrialized mill towns in western Mass are basically fine. Things looked (often literally) pretty grim in the last few decades of the 20th century when population numbers plummeted, but they have stabilized quite a bit since then. Most of the blight has been cleared. There are ongoing renovation and community development projects through the gateway cities program and other efforts. While controversial, the MGM alone made a pretty big change to the downtown streetscape. Sorry if downtown still isn't twee and sterile enough to be indistinguishable from a mall food court.
Third, Springfield does not need to exist as a satellite of Boston. It never has. Its insurance industry is more closely tied to Hartford. It functions as an important regional transport hub. Baystate Health provides advanced medical care for all of western Mass. It doesn't need to be closer to any airports. BDL is right down the road. Boston is only the center of the universe for people who live inside the 495.
> and all the rest of the deindustrialized mill towns in western Mass are basically fine.
They are not.
Here, have a fake award 🥇 gentrification is a dirty word, especially to those living in towns in danger of said gentrification.
I see Springfield's future in warehousing and logistics, it along with Hartford CT. Are the inland gateways to New England. Manufacturing as well will still be strong .
Nothing wrong with that. Nice to be a good blue collar hub.
Nope it's actually a very dependable source of employment so whatever else they can get is just frosting.
Gentrification is a dirty word, especially in places like Springfield. I’m out in Pittsfield and it’s starting here, which is terrifying to anyone making under $30/hour. Like Springfield, it’s the only affordable town to live in, in an area surrounded by affluent towns who rely on “middle class” folks hospitality community. They’re not going to have anyone to serve their coffee to them or run their ski lifts if they don’t keep Pittsfield affordable. Same goes for Springfield. Please leave it poor.
Yes. Eventually all cities will become more walkable, have better job opportunities, and gentrify.
As people move around they bring with them their experiences and are vocal about making positive changes. Springfield already has come a long way from the 80s and 90s.
In my experience it's all about walking and biking. If a city doesn't feel welcoming to people and only caters to cars it will not be successful. People in cars pass by quickly and don't interact with the city. Pedestrians walking and biking often stop to check storefronts out, get coffee and food. The more walkable a city is the faster it gentrifies and cleans up to be more modern.
Springfield is walkable and partly bikeable, but it's still cut off from the surrounding areas. It's hard to get to it on foot from other towns, often you have to walk on the side of a highway or a strode which makes a pedestrian feel like they're going to die.
The fact that the I91 cut the city off the waterfront also hurt it badly, but luckily they are starting to realize the importance of the waterfront and are slowly allowing more access to it like the new park, unfortunately walking to the new park is still sort of difficult.
>If a city doesn't feel welcoming to people and only caters to cars it will not be successful
Didn't seem to hinder the growth of Los Angeles 😅
Trendy armchair urbanist metrics are not equivalent to actual economic metrics.
Bold of you to assume gentrification is a positive change.
Worcester is the 2nd largest city in New England and has a commuter rail to Boston...it's really not a fair comparison. Springfield has potential but it would require a lot of people to act together.
A commuter rail that takes an hour 30 each way...
Perhaps more important than the Commuter Rail, is Route 9 and the highway. You can commute in all directions, and Worcester is in the biotech space similar to Boston and Metrowest.
Springfield has no prolific industries, and is too far away for commuters to Boston to consider. Worcester is closer, but anyone who wants to work in Worcester can, presently live in Worcester cheaply (this may change).
Commuting on the turnpike is godawful in rush hour. My uncle used to travel Worcester-Boston to do overnight EMT dispatch. That took an hour with virtually no traffic. But yeah In a general sense I agree that Springfield would need to cultivate its own unique idenity. Maybe it becomes a starving artists city and cultivates a gritty cultural center.
It does from Plymouth as well, or to ferry from Salem, but it has had a huge impact there as well.
2nd largest city in New England and no one knows how to say it lol
Maybe some day they'll get that east-west rail link. I still believe a high speed rail across the state would be transformative for the entire Commonwealth, but it doesn't look we plan on spending our infrastructure money on anything so ambitious.
The state setup a committee this year that is gearing up to put in a request to get a piece of the federal infrastructure bill money. It’s going to happen.
Can you please link some readings?
I am a big believer in the future of Springfield. It is due for an economic and a cultural renaissance, so to speak. I think a combination of “traditional” suburbs becoming too expensive for young families who will need to start looking for more affordable places. Plenty of homes in Springfield and the surrounding area that are either just affordable or cheap enough and in need of some TLC. Already, plenty of the old mills in places like Holyoke are being repurposed, and Western Mass is THE Heart of the East Coast cannabis industry which has tremendous growth potential. I lived in Enfield my whole life and always had a negative view of a Springfield I only heard classist and racist opinions of. Since I’ve met my partner from Springfield, I have spent much more time in the city and area; we just put an offer down on a house in Springfield in fact. Like everywhere, there are plenty of problems (teenagers on illegal dirt bikes driving like it’s the streets of Bogota), but all I can see is potential for the type of growth that the Carolinas have been seeing.
I’m a big believer in Springfield but it definitely has challenges facing it. I think the overlooked advantage that Worcester has over Springfield is the colleges in Worcester. It has a lot of colleges and some of those students stay there. Not sure that happens as much in Springfield. Other than healthcare, banking and some lawyer jobs, there’s not a ton for young people in Springfield.
There are colleges in Springfield, AIC , WNEU , Springfield College , BayPath , UMass has a campus downtown. I feel like a lot of these people commenting have never actually been to Springfield.
I work in Springfield. The colleges in Springfield don’t jump out like Worcester’s.
The Mass School of Pharmacy has been HUGE for Worcester.
Springfield is part of the so called Knowledge Corridor. There are 4 colleges within Springfield alone, and over a dozen in the greater Springfield area.
Are there tech startups in Amherst? Pretty sure it’s just asparagus fields and the colleges.
There’s Internet on the Cape. I thought it was all cranberry bogs and rednecks.
It still is mostly.
I think you're chasing for an alternative when the answer isn't Springfield. Your other thread captures the feeling of this post:
"It's not that Bostonians hate Springfield, it's that Bostonians don't think about Springfield."
Worcester gentrified because it was largely a commuter city that eventually attracted an industry (biotech), those employers that helped redevelop the city or the surrounding area, more people who came to live in proximity to their commute, and supporting services for those people (food, breweries). Employers will go where there's the most likelihood of the people they want to hire.
However, let's take a hypothetical. If Springfield follows a similar development path and grows proportionally in jobs, then the housing market will also increase to follow suit. You become priced out and will have to live somewhere to commute. You may find yourself back in a situation where "3 days a week would be too much".
If the commute is the issue, you can either move closer (more expensive), live further while having a job with an earning rate that is considered above market for your area (punching above your weight), or find a job closer to you that has in-market rates based on cost of living (par). I don't believe trying to change the character of Springfield or the Pioneer Valley will help with the commute issue. Bostonians don't think about Springfield because they don't live, much less visit there. Maybe if the East-West commute rail line project finally happens there's a possibility for better regional connections, but that's still a very long rail ride.
Their super-corrupt police department entices absolutely no one to move into that area.
How is it corrupt?
Worcester's 8 colleges and proximity to Boston/Providence give it an advantage. People graduating from Worcester colleges are more likely to stick around now that there are biotech & other white-collar jobs in the Worcester area (plus increase in remote work) rather than paying Boston rent prices.
Help me understand the "tech startup spillover" bit about Amherst. Am I missing something?
Nope, nobody from Boston is moving 2 hours out to Springfield
Good thing Springfield is under two hours to Boston.
Um. This is tricky. There are nice parts of Worcester if you look at them in an vacuum but, overall it’s still an overpopulated area with a ton of grime, crime, and traffic. Springfield could improve sure, but there will always be issues.
Springfield is a major city in Massachussets, like Worcester. And like Worcester it also has a few colleges. But unlike Worcester, it’s far from Boston/Metrowest. And it has no good industries…yet.
This may change. It may not. Anyone moving to Springfield is likely staying in Springfield, the tech jobs further east are not in range and this will limit Springfield’s popularity.
Not if Springfield prides itself on being a hell of a town!
That will only ensure they get a monorail
I think revitalization and gentrification are almost inevitable in Springfield. I work in several different fields of real estate, and I travel a lot within New England. I observe how other cities have evolved. Springfield has every part of the foundation of a top tier city.
I think what’s kept Springfield back is lack of progressive leaders for decades. The casino did a little bit to spur some activity downtown, but then COVID hit.
COVID and work from home, along with the astronomic cost of living in other larger cities in New England, has slowly boosted the economy in Springfield. People who make Boston or New York salaries but who are now remote are moving here for a fraction of the price of those cities. On top of that, people are being priced out of anything east of Worcester and south of Hartford, both residentially and commercially. There are so many pockets of Springfield and surrounding areas like Chicopee, Ludlow, Holyoke, and Enfield that have the “bones” for gentrification. You’re already seeing it to an extent in certain areas of Holyoke, Manchester, and Hartford. Even Easthampton, which has almost become Northampton extension, was a quiet working class mill town 15 years ago.
All indications are that it’s ripe for continued growth. It is the “city of homes,” after all.
And, if the East West rail ever materializes, it’ll completely change the area.
How many decades away do you think it is? Even Worcester still has a ways to go I believe.
I’m not sure what the benchmark for success is. And gentrification isn’t necessarily a good thing. But I think we could start to see a more vibrant and walkable downtown with interconnection to upper State Street and Forest Park in the coming few years.
No, all Springfield has is a great chance of being murdered. They don't have existing rail service to boston. If you want to speculate, yeah... maybe eventually they'll connect rail. Otherwise it will always be the bastard son of massachusetts.
Nope. Too far out to attract outside $ that could be invested in less risky cities.
I put forth that Springfield's issue is that Boston controls how the state spends money. And Boston doesn't care about anything past 495.
No. Holyoke has a better shot but you’d have to purge the drugs and riff raff out. Springfield is set up horribly, Holyoke is set up perfect. Holyoke generates its own power, the canals are fully functional for buildings and factories to generate their own power off of them. The grid system works well once you know it etc. real shame it’s a shit hole because it’s probably the most capable city within 4 hours of it.
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There just is too much real estate between Springfield and the major hub (Boston). Anywhere south of 128 is closer to the hub and similar cost to Springfield.
Why would any company have manufacturing/warehousing in Springfield when they can do the same in Taunton for the same price?
You do have a point. You can also get starter homes in providence or woonsocket for like 250k and that is an actual full blown metro. Attleboro, taunton, little more expensive but still.
Not to mention, Providence has its own port and airport. Same for say New Bedford. Providence also is on the rail line and New Bedford is getting a rail line soon.
Yeah again this was just a speculative brainstorming session. I don't think the city is 100% a lost cause.
I am not saying the city is a lost cause. It used to be a huge manufacturing hub when Boston was under threat of being overrun by the Red Coats or when Russian nukes were aimed at it.
The company I work for does lots of business with overseas partners. We pay over 25K a month for a postage stamp sized space near the airport. We could get a much larger space in Springfield for 2500 but then we would be paying over 30K in trucking fees.
Do you think it could become an artists hub? Manchester England was a post industrial shithole look at how much good music came out of there.
>providence has its own airport
KBAF+KCEF: “Am I a joke to you?”
Springfield is closer to Hartford, then past that, New York. There have already been changes in the train lines to make that commute easier. International airport in Hartford already, plus Westover in chicopee looking for Airline partners.
Because believe it or not, Springfield is more accessible to more places than Taunton. You are showing your Boston bias here. For distribution sake , Springfield is a much more strategic location than Taunton.
No.
Going there today. Hope I don’t get shot.
Screw springfield it’s all about Holyoke
Holyoker here. Good comment. The two cities are really one urban area though. Holyoke has a much better chance with a successful Springfield. And the area seems more oriented toward Hartford & NYC metro than Boston in many aspects.
Increased rail offerings are a good start. Notable that I could jump on a train from Holyoke to Grand Central easier than getting into South Station.
Holyoke has awesome highway access without having a highway plow through it, and has an infinitely better city design then springfield does. It’s closer to the five colleges and has has a freaking mountain and canals. It’s not even close. It’s always been the better city
Forest park is the only part of springfield that has a good vibe imo. Maybe some parts of the south end but it’s nothing you’d want to live in.
Bro holyoke used to be nice 50 60 years ago. It's a hell hole now. Holyoke literally supplied all of western ma and the surrounding states with heroin for the past 10 years. I'd move out of state before I'd put my kids in holyoke schools.
Well thank all the gods I don’t have kids then because I’d hate to make decisions based on shit like that
Holyoke is the cesspool of Western Mass. I don’t know of anyone who actively looks to buy a house there. The schools are ranked at the bottom of the state rankings. A drive down Main Street tells you all you need to know about Holyoke.
Wrong.
Absolutely not wrong. Hell I’d even say Holyoke isn’t even top ten in Hampden County of desirable places to live.
Longmeadow East Longmeadow Wilbraham Ludlow West Springfield Agawam Westfield Southwick Hampden Chicopee Springfield And Holyoke would fall somewhere down below all of these places.
You just listed a bunch of suburban hellholes nobody outside of boomers and people with young families want to live. I lived in East longmeadow. Absolutely hated it. Rolling blackouts everytime it sprinkles. And longmeadow infrastructure is equally crap. Holyoke has hydroelectric and a water reservoir on mt tom. You want to cling to some capitalistic scam where everyone in your neighborhood has an Audi, have a blast.
Better than living in a rundown semi urban hellhole. 90% of Holyoke is a burnt up ghetto. I used to own a building on South Canal street. Sold it for Pennie’s on the dollar after the 3rd fire and 2nd dead body found. There’s nothing redeeming about Holyoke. Keep telling yourself you love it there , but we all know in reality it’s the only place you can afford.
Cute. Don’t you have a landscaper to pay or some golf balls to drive? Gag
Goes to show youve only "gone down main St"
Really? Because Holyoke houses are selling at a quicker rate than Northampton or Easthampton. Plenty of people moving into Holyoke and starting to send their kids to HPS because of the dual language schools.
More and Cheaper inventory in Holyoke. People who can afford to get out do. Those who can only afford Holyoke make that sacrifice for home ownership. No one who values their child’s education is willfully sending them to HPS.
Except people are willingly sending their kids to HPS. I know families that have chosen HPS who would have decided to school choice out but because of the dual language programs are now staying.
You can believe what fallacy you want. But the reality is that the only people moving to Holyoke are doing so because that’s all they could afford. Same as the schools, they are sending them there because that’s where they could afford to live.
nonitalic t1_iqpi0ri wrote
Portland, Maine is not really a model Springfield can follow. Portland's revival was all based on its proximity to the ocean, which allowed it to develop into a tourist destination with one of the best restaurant scenes in the country.