What is your biggest reasoning for doing this? You're going to have to prioritize certain things and be willing to let go of some. Unless you have infinite money and land. 😎

Define what you mean by “get off the grid”

Is it 1 or 2?

1. Literally cut all ties to physical grid, and produce and store all energy on site independently?

2. install solar energy and use electric meter connected to grid to net-meter your total usage to 0.

Gas - 1 Electric - undecided

Anything is possible with enough $$ so figure out how much you can spend first I think.

Friends of mine run mini splits and they will beat down to 30 degrees outside, more soecualized units I’ve read will go down to 0.

For the money I’d install a pellet stove insert and have it tied into a battery back up somewhere else in the house that your future solar will run.

Pellet boilers are a thing - my high school was heated entirely on a massive pellet boiler system.

Your plan is unrealistic and you have a lousy plumber.

In VT many homes your size are switching to mini-splits. Usually a couple, maybe three would do it for your place depending on insulation. Which should be priority one: insulation and sealing.

Is your house even situated correctly for solar? Have you considered propane vs NG? Do you plan on having a clothes dryer?

You really need to think this thru.

MassSave has big new rebates for moving from gas heat to all minisplits. I’d start there and then add solar with batteries if your roof exposure works for it.

Completely uninformed guess is that an electric water heater paired with electric solar panels will be better than using roof space for solar water heating, but that’d be worth confirming too.

I saw a heat pump equipped electric water heater on a recent This Old House episode, adds a ton of efficiency and might be feasible?

Maybe leaving the gas water heater in place until you get solar electric would be a good compromise.

You didn’t mention insulation, but that should come first. Masssave will give you big subsidies for insulation work and zero interest for the rest.

Mini splits can do the job alone. If you already have vents for AC, you can use a central system instead of mini splits. Otherwise, you might as well shell out for mini splits rather than do vent work. You can keep the old system if you want, but I’d rather clear out those radiators for good.

It’s a big expensive job, but it’s the best you can get.

As for hot water, I just got on demand gas. If you have gas lines already, you can kick that down the road a few decades as heat pump hot water is possible, but expensive.

Just say no to pellets. Not environmentally friendly at all and a pain in the ass.

>Which should be priority one: insulation and sealing.

Already done. See above.

​

>Is your house even situated correctly for solar?

Yes, ideal actually.

​

>Have you considered propane vs NG?

No, but I'm willing to if there's a compelling reason.

​

>Do you plan on having a clothes dryer?

No, and we don't have one now anyway.

​

>You really need to think this thru.

Agreed, this post is part of the process. Thanks for playing.

Ok. Here’s a suggested approach. And your plumber isn’t up to speed on the latest low temp heat pumps.

1. Replace existing hot water heater with heat-pump hot water heater. See Mass Save for rebate

https://www.masssave.com/en/saving/residential-rebates/heat-pump-water-heaters?gclid=Cj0KCQiAj4ecBhD3ARIsAM4Q_jEcyxaqAFbMWXqOc4hTRE7SrWNRH0g__cVR7XyTV6jQ-F7j1awD1qEaApepEALw_wcB

2. Have a whole house free energy audit performed by mass save contractor, make sure you tell them you want to do a strategic electrification project. This should give you a list of upgrades that can be subsidized with (in some cases very rich) incentives, mainly for whole house insulation and infiltration sealing. And yes, you can apply annually to have these done, since you pay into the energy fund.

3. Invite at least 2, best if 3, mini split heat pump contractors to give estimates for multi head heat pump system. Tell them you want to have system designed for 100% heating and cooling, and that you’ve had insulation etc upgraded for this approach. Have them assist with applying for mass save heat pump rebates. They can be asked to provide pricing to demolish boiler and all baseboard etc, or you can leave the baseboard in place and just demolish the boiler.

4. Go thru rest of house and confirm things like fridge and any other high annual usage appliances are at least 5-8 years old. The energy audit should help identify any here too. Replace if older with efficient units. Again Mass save has rebates.

5. Once the house has been converted to electric, now you have an actual baseline energy use to invite solar installers to submit proposals. With a solid understanding of your homes electric use they will attempt to size a net-zero annual photovoltaic solar system for your home. Solicite at least three prices, and try to work with firms that primarily install systems that people purchase outright. Like: Cotuit Solar, Mass Renewables to name two.

I almost forgot step 6. Celebrate b/c you have removed all on site fossil fuel burning equipment.

If it's an option for your area, my first uneducated guess would be to use geothermal. I believe there's a way to use it to heat water alongside providing power

Do I need a reason? Obviously I don't have infinite money and land, but I'm asking about what's possible, not what's logical.

I need information before I can figure out what makes sense for me and my house/financial situation, which is why I'm asking in the first place.

Unfortunately my property is too small to do geothermal in a way that would make it worthwhile. Which is too bad because it seems like the most reliable/efficient option.

Get an energy audit first. Dollar for dollar you can’t beat insulation and sealing air gaps.

Low temp mini-splits would probably be enough on all but the coldest nights, where you might need a backup. The most efficient would be a ground source heat pump but if you have a small lot that’s going to be hard. The well and recharge need to be (I think) 10’ from property lines and buildings, and (20’?) from each other.

Are you getting an induction oven?

>You didn’t mention insulation, but that should come first. Masssave will
give you big subsidies for insulation work and zero interest for the
rest.

Done.

​

>Mini splits can do the job alone. If you already have vents for AC, you
can use a central system instead of mini splits. Otherwise, you might as
well shell out for mini splits rather than do vent work. You can keep
the old system if you want, but I’d rather clear out those radiators for
good.

Unfortunately I don't have AC ducting so it would have to be all mini splits. Good to know they're probably robust enough. I need to find a specialist and not someone who's trying to sell me a new gas boiler lol.

Whoa… it was just a question.. no need for immediate attitude. Finding good advice usually does require answering a few simple questions.

THANK YOU.

I am very much looking forward to steps 5 and 6, but the prior steps were a bit fuzzy to me. This is the kind of information I was looking for.

Cheers.

Already did the insulation and air sealing. Cut our gas bill in half, which was sweet.

Good to know about the mini splits. My property is too small for ground source unfortunately.

Yes, to the induction oven.

Fair. I read this in quick succession with a comments that were not so neutral/nice so I guess I transferred the tone in my head when I read it.

In any case, I think I included the necessary information to get the kind of answers I'm looking for. I'm less keen on sharing financial and detailed geographic and house info.

I get it. Good luck though and keep us updated on your journey! I’m very curious how it goes because we also have a colonial on a small plot and may decide to go a similar route soon.

I will say this about mini splits.

We got them (1200sq ft older house) primarily for air conditioning.

But we tried to use them exclusively for heating 1 room ( to be fair, it’s a poorly insulated sunroom, but during the day it heats up without using any heat, ) so we used the heat pump at night set to lowest 66 degrees.

We do use a pellet stove for heat , but have an oil furnace that holds hot water ( but we rarely use oil for heat. )

OUR ELECTRIC BILL DOUBLED DURING THAT WINTER! The KWH usage was off the charts!

It was worse than using 4 units all summer for AC! And that was 3 years ago. It added about $ $200 to our bill.

So using electricity might be cleaner, but these mini splits should be installed by someone that can make sure you are getting the most cost efficient system for your house.

Plus… something we did not know until after the fact, When even one unit is in use for heat, the rest of the units throw a bit of heat off the top of them.

That might be ok for some people, but we like our bedrooms very cool at night , and it also warms up the room even if it’s off in that room, but on in another.

It’s normal according to installers.

Splits and solar.

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>Just say no to pellets. Not environmentally friendly at all and a pain in the ass

I'm curious why you say pellets aren't environmentally friendly. They're nearly carbon-neutral, and otherwise would be a waste product. Many wood-burning appliances are highly efficient.

Solar first. That will give you the load you can install to for mini splits and other systems. Then furnace and water heater to mini splits (ones rated to 0 degrees F). with electric baseboard for backup on very cold days. Battery back up isn’t optional if you genuinely want to disconnect from the grid.

> read this in quick succession with a comments that were not so neutral/nice

No one was rude to you, you're just a combative asshole.

>mini splits are not good enough for MA

That is just flat out false. Norway, Sweden and Finland have been using them for over 20 years... The newer units function just fine down to -22F....

Totally off grid will be ridiculously expensive... better solution would be go all electric mini splits + heat pump water heater... then add grid tie solar to get net negative on annual consumption. You will end up with a minimal connection fee.. not sure in MA but in WA it's about $7 a month...

[deleted]

We did solar that covers 100% of our use and dumped our oil furnace for geothermal this summer. I don't know how much space you have, but vertical loops don't require much room at all.

If you do solar first, be very careful about them sizing to load. That’s their default but don’t do that, because in future, your load will increase.

I recommend talking to all in energy - they’ll help with comprehensive services!!

https://allinenergy.org/index.html

My background is in renewable energy. I do not advise going off-grid as this is a drastic lifestyle change and not the least practical. The transition can be done, but with any drastic swings, short term changes are never everlasting. The reason I asked you for priorities is so that you list what are the most important goals in the short term and what are long term goals.

The self defeating fact is that a colonial home is never built to be "off-grid". That's like saying that our cars are made to be retrofit for space travel. Can you benefit from some of the functions? Sure.

The biggest transition facing mankind right now is energy. We should focus on using less rather than how to generate more or from different source. It's pretty depressing for folks in our fields going to work everyday when it feel like we're barely making a dent with increasing energy demand. Rather than trying to go off-grid, for environmental purposes, try focusing on what can be reduced. This would be the best segway to a transition to your ultimate goal.

Just my suggestion. 😊

That’s right. You want to max your roof’s generating capacity to run future equip and charge batteries.

I've heard over and over that solar hot water tends not to pencil out as good as solar electric + electric hot water due to near-inevitable maintenance costs associated with solar hot water - if you can even get a system installed, they tend to break a lot more over time.

Don't forget to give your old appliances away to broke people! The longer they stay out of the landfill the better in many cases even if they are less efficient.

People will deny that in this sub. Now this year, it’ll be another $500/mo. Just pay more! You’re saving the planet!

For electric I'd recommend staying connected even if you don't consume. You can sell some power to the grid to offset the connection fee, and it'll make it a lot easier to sell the house in the future

If you truly want to not be connected to the power grid a 1000 gallon propane tank with propane furnace/boiler/hot water heater. That will be the most reliable heat and hot water.

Next for electricity estimate your power usage and get a significantly oversized solar system. Then install enough batteries to run everything for a few days without much solar.

From what I understand there are whole forests being razed in eastern Europe and the SE US. I was under the impression that it's possible to buy sustainably produced pellets but that's not across the board.

I appreciate your perspective. I'm not a professional but in the past I lived totally off the grid in a very rural area so I know what that lifestyle is like.

I live in a city now so we're not going to disconnect our sewer and water in favor of a well and composting system but if I had the space I'd consider it.

In any case, my partner and I have worked pretty hard to reduce our energy consumption and adjust our lifestyles accordingly. We walk to work. Don't have a clothes dryer. Spent a lot of money making our house as passively energy efficient as possible. Reduced waste and compost, and grow what food we can.

Now we're at a point where the only thing left to do is convert our energy sources.

Our colonial will never be as efficient as a well built straw bale house, but life is a series of compromises and we're doing the best we can with what we've got.

Doing most of this now (swithing from gas to electric heat pumps, installing solar).

Energy Monster and other solar installers can look at both your historical electricity use, plus do estimates based on the heat pump system you are considering and size the panels accordingly. We're doing solar first, then heat pumps. Another thing you'll want the estimate to factor in, that the panels will degrade over time and the system should be sized accordingly over their likely life (20 years).

I can see that happening…

it’s 3am on a Friday night. Do you go to big box in the morning for a replacement or spend $$$ and living the cold water life waiting for the solar replacement.

Thanks for this honest feedback.

Was looking at mini splits 10 years ago after MassSave audit and with one of their “approved” vendors.

It felt like an Anderson Renewal window scam. For 1200sqft condo was quoted $14 and change discounted from $18k.

I can’t see in any scenario how I would’ve made out from this.

Don’t do air to water heat pump. Do air source heat pump so you can get AC as well. Air to water also won’t do a good job of heating your radiators, air to water heat pumps run at a much lower temp than gas boilers. You can’t use radiators for cooling due to condensation.

I’d recommend #2 for electric. I had a coworker go off grid and then he reconnected later because he wanted to sell power back and help support the grid when needed. Plus it helps reduce your risk.

A good wood stove is always a nice place to start. Been heating with only wood my entire life. It's a special kinda heat that just makes everything warm.

And since you have issues with losing power, you won't ever be cold if the power goes out (although as I said.. I know nothing about any other kind of heat so maybe it's true for gas).

Getting off grid with heat pump will be expensive if at all possible for a 2000 sw ft home. While heat pumps are efficient, they consume too much energy for ordinary residential solar system. Idk how much roof space you have but probably not enough, you'd have to build a ground array too. My friend has a 25kw system which covered every inch of his roof + a ground array and a wind turbine to power his geothermal system, even then he has a wood stove to assist the system.

Hot water is easy, a hybrid water heater is the way to go. Not only does it use very little energy, it will also keep your basement dry and cool. A normal solar system can easily deal with it.

Getting minisplits are expensive because every fucking contractor wants your rebate and give you fuck you quotes. My neighbor was given a 26k quote for 8 minisplits and he ended up doing it himself for 10k + hiring an electrician. You can buy DIY Mrcool from home Depot or Lowe's for cheap and doing it yourself is easy if you don't mind drilling a hole through your exterior wall. I have a 3 ton unit for 2 years now and it works fine but fuck, I got a fireplace insert because it's on for like 12 hours a day.

One thing I wished I knew before getting a solar system is that MASS SAVE provide Interest Free loan for the batteries!! Use it!!

Here's what I have so far: fireplace insert, 3 ton Mr cool universal heat pump, 7.6kw Tesla solar with 1 powerwall, electric water heater (planning to upgrade to hybrid eventually). In the summer, my solar system generate 150-200% of my power usage but only 10-15% in the winter due to my house being surrounded by trees. The only way I'll go off grid is a huge solar array + wind turbine.

It really depends on your situation. My heat pump is actually much cheaper than the oil furnace I replaced. My highest bill last year was $450 but I have no gas or oil bill while my neighbor was paying close to 1k to fill up his tank every 1 and a half month, I would say I made it out like bandits compared to him.

Gas on the other hands cost pretty close. Gas might be a little bit cheaper but it is more comfortable than heat pump heat. On the other hand though, if you use window AC then getting a heat pump is a no brainer.

YES!! We did the Anderson Renewal “presentation “ too!! After 2 hours, was told 32k for 9 windows!!! Cheapest option. What a waste of time!!

And the mini split racket is the same. Our first quote was 25k but we wound up knowing someone and they did it for 10k.

We were running window or portable ac units very noisy and costly so just the quiet was worth it!!

I guess if you can get all this from solar it, you will see returns in your lifetime

But our small house didn’t have enough roof space ( as per a solar company’s inspection) to make enough for all our needs. Maybe that’s changed from 10 yrs ago.

Most of the pellets produced in NE USA is sawmill waste, ie byproduct of hardwood flooring production.

I have a pellet stove and it works great no matter how cold it gets. Your only problem would be storing the pellets.

Remember to get all those appliances first before sizing solar. I did exactly we was suggested above all at once, and was short solar output by 30-40%

I used to live on an island, everything was LP. Even the refrigerators ran on propane. Technically off the grid because nothing was wired or connected to any outside systems, but still fossil fuel.

One thing I don’t see mentioned is sizing your solar for the addition of an PEV if you don’t already have one. Nothing is better than free fuel, especially with prices as they currently are and you don’t want to find yourself upside down because you forgot to future proof. Also something to consider when you’re sizing your batteries and such is true off grid is the goal.

That said, take full advantage of MA net metering because storage isn’t at a place yet where it’s cost effective and you’re net impact will still be 0 if you achieve your goals.

The key is to make sure you get the most efficient mini splits. 2 years ago I got the cheapest Mitsubishi that also did heat (because I didn't want to spend the extra 1k for the more efficient model). I have been happy with it but I do wish I went with the more efficient one. My electric usage went down in the summer vs the old window ac units. For heat I run them until December 31st then use my oil furnace until March. I average about 900 kwh in November and December. Last month I used 598 kwh. I also have solar! I think a great setup would be a well insulated home, solar, battery backup and efficient mini splits.

Four years ago in Mass the maximum size solar system I could put in was 10 KW, 33 panels.

I switched the gas dryer, gas stove, and gas hot water heater to electric. I bought electric space heaters to lessen the load on heating with wood.

I still make more electricity than I use. In the shop I run three phase woodworking equipment off a 20 horse power phase converter, that has a 70 amp breaker. The good thing about being hooked to the grid is that I can start up things like that.

I think I produce less carbon pollution by being hooked to the grid. I don't carry excess capacity to support peak loads. At the same time, I don't waste electricity by storing it. The back up is several generators, remotely wired into the buildings, with interlock cut outs to prevent back feeding. We regularly lose power for days at a time.

Yes, I would hate to just have heating fuel as the only option. We spend about $300/yr in pellets fuel for primary heat from October thru June on cool days. and only run the furnace for 45 mins in the AM when temps go into the 30’s.

The pellet stove is a pain in the ass, dust, cleaning and lifting 40lb bags to fill stove, but it does heat well, and I guess we are saving a few bucks vs fuel alone.

We considered a propane wall heater , but glad we didn’t as LG prices have skyrocketed this year too. I just wish we could have solar, but not enough space 😞🫤

You might want to check with your local code office first. Some towns have laws regarding being “connected” in order to be considered a domicile.

No option for pellets :)

The Green Energy Consumers Alliance has webinars on the newer heat pumps. I know technology has improved, but it’s good to hear from someone who actually had it done and doesn’t have skin in the game.

Are you in MA? Whereabouts did you do this and what was the price like? I’m on oil boiler now and looking into geo vs solar.

There’s only so much waste wood and it can also go to particle board. Burning pellets will always pull from a market that also makes pellets out of forests. It’s only carbon neutral on long time frames, if you cut down a tree and plant a new one in its place, it takes a century to catch up.

Green Energy Consumer Alliance is a great resource.

https://www.greenenergyconsumers.org

I always visit their site first when I’m trying to upgrade my utilities and home.

Ok, wood comes from trees that got cut down, but is it actually a worse energy source environmentally-speaking than photovoltaic? While growing, trees provide food and habitat for wildlife, and require little maintenance to produce. PV solar, besides the environmental costs of producing the panels themselves, also depends typically on lead or lithium-based batteries, and all of the equipment needs to be replaced on a regular basis (5-10 years for batteries, 25 years for panels). Large-scale solar farms often occupy space that trees could instead, and I wonder whether the trees would be more efficient at capturing solar energy.

I'm sure improvements could be made in the forestry industry, but wood burning seems to be less of an environmental concern than burning fossil fuels, and is an economical source of heat in areas where wood is abundant.

You can drill vertical well holes for geothermal. That works fine on a small lot.

Yeah, I’m in MA. We used Bill Wenzel Geothermal out of southern New Hampshire. The upfront cost was substantial (we have two four ton Waterfurnace 7 units), but there are 0% interest HEAT loans available from Mass Save, $15k back from the state, and a 30% federal tax credit as well as renewable energy credits that you can choose to sell. The same tax 30% credit applies to solar as well. We calculated our payoff at 10-12 years based on the oil rate last January/February. The solar covers 100% of our annual usage, including the geothermal heating. The geothermal subreddit (r/geothermal) is a great resource for information.

Here's a sneak peek of /r/geothermal using the top posts of the year!

#1: My Geothermal Setup At Home | 31 comments
#2: Ground Loop Going in Today | 25 comments
#3: Nebraska retiree uses earths's heat to grow oranges in snow | 4 comments

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You probably can't get off the grid. I have an efficient heat pump, and an $80,000 solar plus battery setup and that's not enough to be off grid in the winter when we don't get a lot of sunlight, but use the most electric due to heat. It would be possible with gas or oil heat, but not with a heat pump. If you want to be off grid, move south to Florida or Texas, it is possible there. Here, you'd need a windmill, probably 60 perfectly placed solar panels, and maybe 80+kwh of storage.

That also wouldn't be the most environmentally conscious because you will have way more solar and batteries than you need 8 or 9 months of the year, neither are environmentally friendly to build, and the excess is just waste if you aren't connected to the grid and selling your energy back to them.

The good news for your transformer, is if you are buying lots of solar and battery, and you remain connected to the grid (which I highly recommend), the grid may force you to buy a new transformer, so you will have fixed the issue for your neighbors.