Submitted by oceansofmyancestors t3_yopgpy in massachusetts
According to the American Public Power Association, traditional power sources are expected to soar this winter:
Home heating oil up 19% Natural gas up 21%
If Natural gas is up 21%, and National Grid is blaming their price hike on Natural gas increases…how does this somehow equal a 64% price increase to the consumer?
ISO-NE says 53% of our electricity comes from nat gas
I'm for more nuclear
It’s pretty obvious we need some kind of stable, low-carbon energy source for the 40-50% of capacity that’s just always on. And I’m talking for the whole country, not just here. Nuclear is the only option. Sorry but it just is. The sooner we come to grips with that fact the better.
It's not the only option but we should certainly start looking at it again.
The problem with nuclear is that it takes decades and billions to build a nuclear power plant and there is a lot of risk because even with that investment there is the real chance that you could end up with a power plant that never goes online.
Most people agree that nuclear would solve a lot of our energy problems but there is a lot of not in my backyard for both the power plants and the wast which just compounds the problems I described above. The reality is unless there is a fundamental change in the way we build and operate nuclear power plants that both makes them safer and significantly less expensive to build then we are unlikely to see any new plants come online any time soon. We would be better off investing that time and money into wind, and solar along with grid level energy storage.
The best system that’s been proposed is many smaller (and less expensive) nuclear power plants with some online constantly and others that can spool up in a few days (not over a week like big plants) to meet demand, say before a heat wave or cold spell.
I pulled that 35% from the last energy label Eversource distributed showing the fuel mix and other info for the supply they're providing their customers.
Either way, the number one source of our electricity in New England is natural gas, which puts more pressure on gas supply in the region and pushes pricing up even more than just winter heating.
Sadly nuclear is just under 4% of the mix. I believe at one point it was between 15 and 20% of electricity generation in New England, but now only Seabrook (NH) and Millstone (CT) are operational.
There used to be several. Pilgrim in MA. Then the three Yankee plants in Vermont, Connecticut and Maine.
Renewables are getting cheaper than nuclear and won’t get the NIMBY push back. States should keep on incentivizing solar, wind and hydro.
Renewable themselves are cheap when they are funtional (sun shining, wind blowing). Storage is expensive to build, and can have losses of 40%, making renewables cost more than stable sources like natural gas or nuclear.
Ocean currents and rivers don’t stop.
Funny you mention it, because i had put that in my post, then deleted it. From what I have seen, we have tapped out our hydro capability in MA.
Rivers maybe, offshore will be king.
Me too! It seems like the most reliable cleanest source of power imo. We should be using the keystone pipeline to invest in nuclear plants
So tldr. Never privatize local control over utilities
Honestly, corporate greed gone unchecked by government.
People will give you political reasons, supply issue reasons, but ultimately it’s because we live in a capitalist economy and across the board executives are jacking up prices on everything that they know people have to pay to live.
They literally have to check with the government for rate increases. Stop with the lazy meme answers already.
Yep. Every utility has to submit cost increases to the DPU and they approve/deny them. There’s not much the govt can do when literally everything just costs more.
If it turns out that the utilities actually over collected this heating season then we will see price cuts next year.
If there’s and increase of bad debt (people who do not pay their utility bill) then that will also increase rates because the rest of the ratepayers have to pick up the tab.
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You can read the exact reasons here. https://www.mass.gov/info-details/cost-of-gas-adjustment-factor-rates-and-information
My town has a local power buy. Even they are going up a lot.
Oxford MA
EDIT: Exact numbers: Was: 10.316 / kWh Will be: 15.540 / kWh
53.3% increase.
For reference National Grid will be 33.891 / kWh so Oxford price is still crazy better. It just going up, too.
I live in Oxford and I didn't know this.
Is this automatic or do I need to opt-in?
It was years ago and I think I had to opt in.
Just signed up. Had no idea. You may have just saved me like $1000, lol.
Cool. We could’ve saved a few hundred a year going to a community trash pickup but “no government buttholes are going to run my life!!!” Loonies showed up at the town hall meeting and screamed it down.
I was pissed. Now we are still stuck with like 5 trash haulers and the rates are terrible and the friggin huge heavy trucks destroy our roads.
People can be so dumb sometimes. Sigh.
Anyway - rant done. Lol. Take care fellow Oxford resident.
Nat Gas is like 2x as expensive as a year ago. Price is up way more than that in Europe.
We are also at the end of the gas pipeline and any attempts to add pipeline capacity (ie new pipelines) have been fought and defeated by environmental groups and other states. Therefore the existing pipelines can’t properly supply New England and we must import gas (to the region) via ship.
However, due to the Jones Act (and corresponding lack of domestic ship capacity) we can’t import gas from terminals elsewhere in the US (ie the gulf). Therefore, the region must buy from the global market and compete with Europe, Asia, and other areas for that supply of gas. This drives up the price of natural gas in New England higher than other parts of the country.
To add to this, we have removed a significant amount of baseline production with the closure of nuclear plans in the region. Now we must make up that capacity now (solar/offshore wind aren’t available now) and the only way is via gas generating plants.
yeah because Europe imports from the US, but we can't ship from the US to the US and don't have enough gas capacity, so we get to import from Europe, except now that there's no Russia we get screwed
Why cant we ship US to US? We can't supply ourselves? or it's not cost-effective too as we need to sell?
The jones act prohibits foreign flagged vessels from transporting from a US port directly to a US port
There is insufficient pipeline capacity and there are no US merchant ships capable of carrying natural gas, therefore we have to import gas from other countries
Every time I hear about the Jones act it seems like it was a terrible idea. Why don’t we just repeal it? It seems to do nothing positive.
In 1920 during war time it made perfect sense to safeguard the US merchant fleet; in 2022 with globalization it makes less so. What they need to do is amend the act removing the requirement that the ships be built in the US to just be US flagged ships.
Every time I read stuff like that I just have to shake my head. Americans have a way of stating stuff like that like it’s a natural law or something. But I’m sure there’s some entrenched lobby preventing the amendment of the Jones act so that’s just the way it always was and always will be.
Can't we build ships? Shouldn't we be doing that now?
Building a ship in the US is several times more expensive than china or Korea
That’s why even though we spend more on the military than china, China is actually outpacing our naval ship production
Since trade is commercialized, there’s no incentive for these mostly foreign shipping companies to buy American ships and the only ships America really makes are naval ships which are local for national security
I feel like this is just an excuse. We can buy ships from Korea, can't we? We certainly buy oil rigs that are made there.
Then you have to pay American wages, and if wages are 50% of operating costs would you as an American company use the American shippper at 100 a crate or the Liberian one at 55?
American shipping is dead because it’s fundamentally uncompetitive internationally
But I mean just to ship natural gas from US ports to US ports. There is no international competition since foreign ships can't do it due to the Jones Act.
There are no U.S. flagged natural gas carriers they’ve all been out competed
None have been built since 1980
https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-16-104
Alaska has it even worse
https://maritime.law/legal-insights/us-cabotage-laws-and-alaska-lng-trade/
How can they be out-competed if foreign ships can't do domestic routes? There must be some solution here. Subsidies maybe? Seems more important than cattle farming, but I'm probably missing the scale of the oil industry.
No shipyards means no ships which means no ships eligible for US-US travel under the jones act
No one wants to buy us ships because they’re expensive, uneconomical against pipelines, and wouldn’t turn a profit.
Of course pipeline expansion or alternative sources get shut down by environmentalists so that’s not really an option either and we’re just left with high cost
The solution is repeal the jones act, which would never happen because supporters would go “but national defense and the jobs of sailors that remain” which has staved it off every attempt to repeal and nuclear power, which also gets shut down by environmentalists
>No shipyards means no ships which means no ships eligible for US-US travel under the jones act
This is the part that confuses me. Does a ship have to be built in the US to be US flagged? I would expect a ship built in Korea and owned by a US company could transport gas, notwithstanding the economics of it.
I guess you're probably right about the Jones Act though.
The jones act requires ships to be US built
Sort of but it's complicated.
Support building a nuclear power plant(s) in this state
THANK YOU!!!!! Especially since we wont have a chernobyl happen since the soviets not only had horrible reactors(RBMKs were fucking jokes and pretty much all the post soviet states other than russia retired theirs) but did the usual soviet practices of bad maintenance+not telling people about problems cause quotas+political interference in fucking everything
Thorium plants
Not going to happen, everyone likes the idea of nuclear but no one wants it in their backyard. The fact is nuclear, especially modern day nuclear power plants, is extremely safe and extensively regulated. Coal actually produces more radiation than a nuclear power plant and if a nuclear power plant put into the environment even a fraction of the radiation that a coal plant does it would be shut down. The perception of nuclear is just too tainted and the investment is so much that we will never see another plant come online in this state. Off shore wind is out best bet, we just need to get grid level storage online to make it reliable.
Because the Jones Act (ancient piece of crap federal legislation) prevents us from importing gas from the Gulf or other domestic sources. And Russia is decimating Ukraine, which has disrupted the entire energy sector.
Until we get rid of the Jones Act, Ukraine defeats Russia, or we transition to natural energy sources, we will have high prices.
The Jones act prevents a foreign vessel from transporting goods between US ports. Kind of like modern day rules that protect US labor, like the recent change in the Build Back Better plan to eliminate EV credits on cars not made in North America. The passenger vessel services act, which was modeled after the Jones act was suspended last year so cruise ships not registered in the US could take tourists to Alaska without a midway stop in Canada, when Canada was shutdown to tourists. So, it's not a far reach to suspend that provision of the Jones Act as there is now precedence to do so. Just need Markey or Warren to propose it, like Murkowski did for Alaska - it received unanimous vote by the way.
Good to know! How do we get that to happen?
Markey or Warren have to step up. I certainly do not see Markey doing it because this is somewhat Pro fossil fuel, and Warren likes to talk more than she likes to provide action, so we're pretty much screwed.
It's not pro fossil fuels though. It's pro consumer. We need more renewable energy, but that takes time to build. In the meantime us buying gas from foreign countries makes no sense when the United States is one of the largest suppliers of natural gas, including liquid natural gas. There are no liquid natural gas tankers made in the United States, which is why the Jones act prevents us from getting natural gas from within our own country.
Because we allow our politicians to sell us like livestock.
Because oligarchs are gonna oligarch, fuck the every day man
TRUTH
Because the cost of electricity from the wholesale market has doubled in just a year and National Grid (who has to maintain thousands of miles of electrical infrastructure) can't do that while giving you electricity for free/at a loss.
I know corporations can be greedy, but there's seriously bigger issues at play in this case. Right now, utilities across New England are conducting exercises and drills in preparation for having to conduct rolling blackouts this winter due to energy supply shortfalls. Just to give some perspective..
Any profit-driven company would not be planning to resort to measures like that unless absolutely necessary. If you really want to point fingers at corporations, I'd start with the O&G industry first, not utilities.
> can't do that while giving you electricity for free/at a loss
All the other information, while relevant, not withstanding, would it count as free or at a loss if they only made 2 billion in profits instead of 4 billion, or are us customers the only ones who should suffer the burden?
Are you willing to work for half your salary?
Even if your hypothetical was true, profit is a critical part of the operation. Why would anyone bother to provide electricity otherwise?
Because it’s an essential resource? And I never said cut salaries. Maybe cut costs to customers instead of increasing dividend payouts. And I’m not even saying cut dividend payouts. Just don’t increase them.
Whatever you do (presumably you are asking for government action) will just make the economics of delivering natural gas and electricity to consumers less attractive. I don't really want any part of that.
Why not? UPS and FedEx are successful and they have the Post Office, right? People that want to send a letter for $0.50, they can, and the people that want to send that same letter for $13 can also.
If only we could ship large quantities of LNG to New England… oh wait, we could if not for the Jones Act.
(Of course this wouldn’t fix everything but it’d at least help…ugh).
If only we could pipe it from PA, except New York. And Massachusetts, for that matter.
In the name of being green.
Also that
Idk, but because gas companies are a utility they must file reports twice a year detailing exactly what they are charging and why.
You can look into what the government approved and why they did here.
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/cost-of-gas-adjustment-factor-rates-and-information
Yep yep
We have to import our nat gas in the form of LNG (liquefied) unlike other parts of the country. That’s why the cost per kWh is so different from state to state. In many parts of the country, the price of electric is 1/3 of ours pre-price hike. Our local govts decisions to get rid of nuclear production and scuttle pipelines years and years ago are biting us now.
>scuttle pipelines years and years ago are biting us now.
7 year ago I believe
Heating oil up 19%?
Last year I locked in my price at $2.89 a gallon, this year I locked in at $5.49.
I'm in nh, last year was similar, I got lucky at 4.84 prebuy. Price today is 5.69
I'm not sure where you found the rates for Oil and NG. Oil is up way more than that from personal experience and looking the data from the Energy Information Administration, gas from December 2021 to now is up 44%, and with the availability of diesel low, that will only shoot up more since so much of our Natural Gas is shipped in by truck and boat.
I found it in a Globe article from today, and it looks like they quoted it from American Public Power Assoc.
Still, your figures or mine, neither is close to 64%. I understand the need to raise the price. Its the amount of the increase that I have a problem with.
Well, to be honest the 64% is also wrong. The supply increase is 195% and the total cost is 87%. I think one person in the media didn't have a calculator and the rest followed along. If you look at the monthly rate, most of us pay a seasonal average, but the monthly power rate, increases from November to January by 12¢, which is 100% increase over the summer rates on its own, just the additional increase from November to January, so I'm thinking they are really prepping for much higher natural gas supply rates later in the winter.
New England’s natural gas is more expensive than pipeline gas because it has to be shipped by sea.
Jones Act does not help.
Home heating oil is up 19%!? From what date? 3 months ago? It’s currently 6$ a gallon. Natural gas is over double the price it was, along with heating oil. Idk where you’re getting your information from. This state needs more NAG pipelines, desperately. The way we have to import our fuel here is actual insanity. If you want to blame anyone for the sky high rate hikes blame the people who are sitting in Boston that the majority voted for.
Because they have to capitalize on an already strained customer base and make sure their profits thrive.
Because they are Monopoly and you have no choice.
Oil is up 19% from when? 5 minutes ago?
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-home-heating-fuels-prices#retail-heating-oil-prices-
I would bet it drops in a week.
Maybe on Wednesday.
Depends on when the oil distributors run out of oil at the current price really.
So they can wring more money out of you, the same reason everything else has gone up in price
Natural gas prices have exploded recently, especially because the fine people of Central and Eastern Massachusetts refuse to authorize transmission pipelines. That means you're fighting with Europe for LNG tankers at the moment.
It's also partly corporate greed and inefficient expansion practices they use to artificially inflate costs to justify price raises.
Always keep your municipal power companies. Never privitize. Our rates went up but not by this much
TWO WORDS
BUILD BACK BETTER
😂
If I run as a single issue candidate in 2024 to repeal the Jones Act, will you support me?
Ask Maura Healy,she proudly states"I stopped 2 gas pipelines coming through Massachusetts"
Only the beginning. 🤣
Capitalism
Because there’s nothing we can do about it
I opted in to Constable through nat grid, hope that helps
Because they can.
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THREE WORDS
MORE NUCLEAR NEEDED
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I meant nuclear power lol(please dont report me like seriously I judt want people to like nuclear power more not blow up each others cities)
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I get it lol.
Capitalism
I don’t think this is complicated. Nat grid is using the war in Ukraine to justify speculative price increases for the power. If it does not turn out to be a 64% increase they will pocket the money and barely readjust keeping the rate artificially high, just like the mega corps cashing in on “rampant inflation”. Just wait until next year when profit margin increases 70% for huge corporations who are making food, ect…. They will all say “what??? “ not us, it’s higher demand not increased prices. We are fucked because the government has become non-functional due to partisan hackery. Bring in the moderates already, make a centerist party and book these pos extremists on both sides… Power rates fixed
This is simply false. If national grid over collects this year then they will have to cut prices price next year by the amount they over collected. They simply DO NOT get to keep the extra profits if it turns out they over estimated the cost of gas one year.
You must work for grid… I’m sure you’re right.. but there is a reason literally everyone not building or collecting a pension from Nat grid Fkn hates them.
I do not nor have I ever work for a utility company, but I do pay the same utilities as everyone else in the commonwealth. Thanks for trying though.
Never forgets, inflation may be at a 40 year high, corporate profits are a 50 year high.
This.
Graft.
Because energy is up 64% globally.........Do you guys know about CNBC?
I know the solution. Just add millions of the world’s poorest people via the southern border. Let them eat up more resources while we foot the bill and get told to abort our unborn to help inflation and climate change.
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Yea for the price we’ve paid we ought to have putin and all his buddies heads served to us on a silver platter. We defend Europe’s border while they do nothing for us. And mush brain Joe allows 4.5 million more illegal immigrants to enter with no plans whatsoever. That’s 4.5 million more people he will give aid to over any one of us white hardworking taxpayers.
Joining the energy gouging monopolies.
National Grid : GREED 🐷
Keep voting for climate nutter democrats and the gas and oil will double and triple from here along with everything else. Attack gas and oil you all you want when we have enough renewables to meet our demands.
Go back to living in your old lady’s cellar. I’m conservative, just look at the country’s debt the last guy put us in alone all the folks I know dumped him. He couldn’t get himself or any conservative elected, folks on r/conservative are trashing him.
This should have been expected with the environmentalist shutting down the cheap coal power plants.
I swear conservatives have some sort of collective Stockholm syndrome. Blame the working class environmentalist instead instead of corporate greed. Suck up enough to those in power and surely they’ll save you.
> working class environmentalist
Most environmentalists aren’t working class. They’re generally bourgeois af.
Middle class and upper middle class, sure. They are definitely working class compared to the executives and shareholders at Exxon, Shell, etc.
This narrative that “liberal coastal elites” are where the wealth is concentrated is completely false. Both mainstream parties are deep into corporate lobbyists; but this idea the Republican Party is representing this downtrodden and oppressed group of white, working class voters and not the interests of wealthy business owners is a fantasy. Most of these Republicans went to the Ivy League institutions they are bashing.
Completely untrue
Which is totally why environmentalist group membership coincidentally looks far more like a cross-section of Newton than New Bedford.
They just get told what to think by corporate firms and think tanks.
It makes things easier for them.
But Ukraine will be warm. Energy Executive Hunter Biden must have a solution.
Fuck the planet Amirite?
The planet will survive no matter what we do.
Mnemon-TORreport t1_ivffcc0 wrote
A big part of the natural gas and electricity price increases this winter (and every winter) is how Massachusetts set up the utility sector after deregulating the supply side of customer bill back in 1999.
Those decisions have literally cost consumers in Massachusetts billions upon billions since the rules went into practice.
Before, the predecessors to National Grid and Eversource had their own power plants and long-term contracts with the gas pipelines. They were able to project and plan years or even decades in advance, so prices were much more stable than we've since.
Now, they manage competitive bids from electric and natural gas suppliers on the open market. For the most part, they enter into contracts with suppliers providing the lowest prices and pass the cost of those contracts onto consumers (they also have requirements to have X% of their contracted supply from green resources). Also, they make no profit on that portion of the bill.
Other states with similar deregulation - like New York - allow utilities to 'hedge' these contracts, buying some on the open market now but also locking into longer-term contracts to protect their customers from price volatility - so their price increases aren't as steep this winter. Massachusetts doesn't allow this, with utilities needing to buy the bulk of their gas/electricity every three to six months.
New England also has a couple of other challenges. First, we're at the end of the natural gas pipelines and there are some capacity issues (not enough room in the pipes), so both add to the costs. This is compounded by the fact 35% of the electricity in New England comes from power plants burning natural gas.