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UniWheel t1_izplxxs wrote

Bill complaints that don't distinguish between usage and rates are meaningless.

We just entered heating season

And rates just went up because of the global market and geopolitical situation

Sitting here in four layers, a hat, and three pairs of socks.

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SkipAd54321 t1_izqez65 wrote

Did you… use more gas? November was colder than October.

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modernhomeowner t1_izpkag4 wrote

What is the rate? Most of that increase is because you used more.

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THINKFR33LY t1_izq6yrr wrote

Heat pump probably won't help.... in MA, electrical rates were high enough to make even thr most efficient heat pumps more expensive than natural gas.

Now, both energy costs have soared... but I'd bet it's even worse now. I have heat pumps and oil furnaces and currently it's cheaper to use oil (@4.25/gallon) than the heat pumps at over 40c/kwh!

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SynbiosVyse t1_izrzbsk wrote

I'm so tired about hearing about how wonderful heat pumps are. I have both a brand new ducted central heat pump from Bosch and a gas steam boiler, each for different areas of the house. The area that the heat pump serves is half the size and the bill last month was $150 (on top of normal electric usage). Gas bill was $100 and that includes domestic hot water too which is served by the boiler via indirect.

Here's the icing on the cake: the gas boiler cycles between 68 and 64 (night) and the heat pump is set to 64 all the time. It just can't keep up. I'm really regretting my heat pump now. It's only going to get worse in the colder months coming up.

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mp246 t1_izxilpk wrote

there are so many variables that go into your situation, never mind anybody else's, it's completely useless to look at a $150 electric bill and $100 gas bill and draw any kind of conclusions, other than you have no idea what you're talking about. hur dur heat pump bad is basically all you're saying.

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SynbiosVyse t1_izxkno8 wrote

They are bad in cold weather. You can't argue the physics of it. If you look at the efficiency curves the top of the line Bosch drops to 50% efficiency below freezing. I'm not sure what variables you speak about, this is a fairly controlled experiment. Mini splits are about 30% more efficient than central heat pumps so I could see those being more desirable. I think the longstanding conception that heat pumps suck below freezing is true. It's blowing cold air for first 15-20 minutes of the cycle and never really gets up to the temp that the furnace did. It needs to run for a long time just to raise one degree. I understand they're designed to run more frequently than a furnace for more air circulation but it's using more electricity as a result with the condenser and fan running. It's just a stupid appliance unless you have solar or cheap electricity. I don't see how anyone is expected to save money with this thing.

For clarification it was $150 on top of average electricity bill so approximate cost just to run heat pump.

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mp246 t1_izxm2ql wrote

>They are bad in cold weather. You can't argue the physics of it. If you look at the efficiency curves the top of the line Bosch drops to 50% efficiency below freezing.

you really don't know what you're talking about. i can't find a bosh specific chart, but modern heat pumps can be ~200% efficient at 0F. and i'm talking about efficiency in the sense of units of energy in = units of energy out, not in a sense of dollars per BTU or whatever

>I'm not sure what variables you speak about, this is a fairly controlled experiment.

you really, really don't know what you're talking about.

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SynbiosVyse t1_izxscp8 wrote

The marketing of COP (coefficient of performance) being greater than 1 for heat pumps is exactly the kind of marketing they want you to believe as being important. COP is a good way to compare heat pumps to other heat pumps, since standard energy-in/energy-out doesn't make sense. If you're talking about relative efficiency, central heat pumps are going to drop to about 50% in terms of the amount of electrical power they use for the amount of heat they produce. For example, if it uses 2 KWh to raise 1 degree from 54 to 55 F, it will use 4 KWh to raise 1 degree from 10 to 11. Because of this sharp decrease in efficiency you're going to be paying up the nose in electricty compared to a furnace or boiler which efficiency curve is completely agnostic to the temperature outside.

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mp246 t1_izxu5y8 wrote

everybody already knows it takes more energy to heat something as it gets colder and colder outside dude. and you still don't understand the difference between relative efficiency and absolute efficiency, you keep mixing them up, and then on top you that you mention absolute costs when i specifically called out the difference in the previous post.

when you talk about your gas boiler vs your heat pump, what does it cost you, in terms of dollars, to get 1 degree of rise out of each? post that, along with the manual j for the respective heating zones, and then we can start to get a rough idea of what is more efficient in terms of absolute costs. until then, you're just talking out of your ass

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Xaphas OP t1_izpp750 wrote

1.049 therm @ 154 therm but we only turned the furnace on after Thanksgiving and then it was out for a week due to a maintenance issue. 30 therms the month before, no way we used that much more in a single week. Planning on checking the meter in the morning to see if there's a discrepancy with the bills reading.

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ZaphodG t1_izrm1j1 wrote

I got a rate change email from Eversource last week so I went online to see what rate I had been paying. It actually went down slightly. I have been paying $1.07134 per therm. $1.049 is an improvement and way better than I was expecting. I was paying $0.83090 a year ago. It’s gone up by ~ 20% since last year.

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fcoibFarmer t1_izqk7u6 wrote

in fitchburg, 3 bedroom apartment, last february was $650 in gas from unitil with it set at 62. not looking forward to this year. currently set at 45 degrees

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SynbiosVyse t1_izrznlg wrote

Your heating system and insulation suck. You shouldn't really set it below 50.

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fcoibFarmer t1_izsamye wrote

oh i know. nothing the landlord will do though. mass save won’t work either because not all floors want mass save to come, so we can’t get it. landlord doesn’t care at all. he’ll get frozen pipes if he does and maybe he’ll learn

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SynbiosVyse t1_izsg3an wrote

If your windows are a problem you can try putting cling wrap over them. It looks awful but it might help. Also get door sweeps. Just a little bit you can do within your control as a tenant.

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Puzzled_Transition48 t1_izslp6g wrote

If he gets frozen pipes his insurance will bail Him out and you’ll be stuck in an ice box for a few weeks

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fcoibFarmer t1_izslt2i wrote

i’ll just move out, rent by the month. no lease or anything.

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fcoibFarmer t1_izslum2 wrote

my landlord is also my roommate so he’d be dealing with it

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Thisbymaster t1_izpnp1d wrote

A fellow gas furnace owner. I so desperately wanted to get heat pumps installed instead but there just isn't any cash.

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z0olander t1_izq15tt wrote

If you go through mass save, there is a program for a 7 year zero interest loan for heat pumps. There's also a rebate, ~3K or 10K, depending on whether you convert partially or fully off of oil.

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modernhomeowner t1_izqijng wrote

You have to have a good electric rate. Right now, gas is cheaper than a heat pump to operate. You'd need electric at under 17¢, and that's just the utility difference, it doesn't even pay you back for the cost of the heat pump, which for me was $18,000, after the $10,000 rebate. $28k without the rebate.

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Thisbymaster t1_izqdwty wrote

I have an appointment in January. I have been waiting two months.

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SynbiosVyse t1_izrzi1g wrote

Heat pumps are worse in my experience. Regretting it bad now.

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LadyGreyIcedTea t1_izqthyb wrote

Well this month is the first month that you've really had the heat on most likely. It was 80 degrees out in early November. I didn't turn my heat on until Nov 14. My gas bill with Eversource last month was $33. This month was $165 but that's because of increased usage, not higher cost.

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tkshow t1_j0imdif wrote

I just got mine. Last month $125, this month $420. January and February are going to be a bitch.

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SynbiosVyse t1_izsxl3z wrote

> Holy $h!^ Eversource Maura Healy

Fixed it for you

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tkshow t1_j0imppl wrote

She's not governor yet, is she?

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SynbiosVyse t1_j0in3px wrote

Nope but didn't need to be to already make major effects on Natural Gas cost.

https://www.mass.gov/news/ag-healey-leads-coalition-supporting-federal-court-order-shutting-down-dakota-access-pipeline

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tkshow t1_j0ioq1h wrote

Yeah. OK if you say so. The pipeline that lead directly to..... Illinois?

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SynbiosVyse t1_j0it0ol wrote

A large portion of natural gas used in Massachusetts comes from Western Canada, so it would have helped. How many people against additional pipelines are making use of the existing ones right now?

Massachusetts is highly, highly dependent on natural gas, and has no reserves or production of its own. It's one of the least energy independent states in the country.

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