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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2i9jqi wrote

Reply to comment by Sufficient-Opposite3 in Homeless with a 3 year old by ItalianMama95

I am a British citizen, I wish I could stay, my family want me to. However, my sons abusive dad is refusing to let us. It’s either face living in my car and being homeless or potentially deal with kidnapping charges.

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misterforsa t1_j2ien63 wrote

Would the law call it kidnapping in this case? Perhaps not given your circumstances. Even if it was kidnapping and you stay in UK permanently, I doubt the state of MA is gonna extradite you for it

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2ifvgh wrote

Yea it would still class as kidnapping because it would be me refusing to bring his son back to him especially when we have notarized agreement.

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Golden_apple6492 t1_j2iib53 wrote

Hey OP, you might want to consider talking to Greater Boston Legal Services’ Relocation Project about the situation. They may be able to give you some advice about how to move towards permanently relocating back to the UK.

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LackingUtility t1_j2ih9vn wrote

That agreement may be unenforceable. Rather than coming back and being homeless, you may want to talk to a lawyer.

ETA: I'm starting to wonder if this is a creative writing exercise, given that OP hasn't responded to anyone pointing out that the "notarized agreement" is unenforceable and that kidnapping charges are highly unlikely if not impossible, while child endangerment charges and loss of custody are far more likely.

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dorkydancer t1_j2jj172 wrote

Not to mention their comment history looks sus af. The whole thing smells scammy to me. I’ve seen scammy people on Reddit use children as bait to get people to send them money. If this is legit, then my bad, but something seems off. Be careful friendly people.

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2jt2r3 wrote

Ive stated that I cannot just keep my child in the UK. My sons father was abusive and narcissistic. He has a lot of family in the US and contacts to the police and fire. He will definitely pursue kidnapping charges if I don’t bring my son back. No offense but you don’t know the person I’m dealing with or every detail about my situation. You say about scammy people trying to get money from people, I have had people reaching out to me offering to help me with money, clothes and general items for my child. I have said no, I’m not asking for money and my child is not in need of anything right now. I am simply asking for ideas to keep an active 3 year old entertained while living in a car while I pursue help with shelters because the chances of me getting a bed right away are very slim. Please do not make comments when you know nothing of the situation besides a few sentences. It can be very triggering for someone especially like myself when I’ve reached out to people before and they never want to help. I find it very hard to ask for help because everyone always wants my help but never want to help me. I don’t get as much help from the government because I am not a us citizen. So please be more thoughtful and kind with your words. Thank you and happy new year.

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LackingUtility t1_j2jtuuo wrote

I don’t know about your situation, but I am a Massachusetts lawyer. Everything you’ve said suggests that you’re wrong about the possibility of kidnapping charges, but that you will be putting your child in danger and likely lose custody if you do come to Massachusetts and live in your car.

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SpindriftRascal t1_j2jvhz1 wrote

On the given facts, OP is not wrong about the possibility of a kidnapping charge. See 18 USC 1204.

Of course, we have no way of predicting whether the father would file a complaint, or whether it would actually lead to an IPK charge, but it’s certainly possible. OP’s mention of kidnapping suggests to me that it has come up as a topic and she is wise to aware of the possibility.

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LackingUtility t1_j2jvvm9 wrote

Staying in the UK where the child is not homeless would likely not be considered intent to deprive the father of parental rights though. OP would also have a necessity defense.

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SpindriftRascal t1_j2jwepj wrote

Sure, I’d make that argument. But she doesn’t want to be in position to have to argue that, does she? I’m not opining on what she should do. I’m just pointing out that an IPK charge is certainly possible in this situation.

Edit: correcting omission of the word “in.”

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LackingUtility t1_j2k1bt7 wrote

She may…. We don’t have all the facts, hence why OP should talk to a lawyer.

But OP has ignored that advice every time it’s been given. I wonder if the kid wouldn’t be better off with the father.

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2jzoz6 wrote

Yes it has definitely come up in topic before hence why I am so cautious about it. Yes I know it is a real possibility as I have looked into. I have pleaded and begged his father to let me stay here or to take his son full time and he refuses. It’s all part of his control over me still from the abusive relationship.

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Any_Strawberry5747 t1_j2kdvbi wrote

Could this lawyer be any help? This lawyer is right that she is wrong about the possibility of kidnapping charges. The charges will go toward to the father for putting child in danger by putting you both without a roof to live on plus he has to pay child support so there is money which will get you place to stay.

The court system is more interested in seeing the mother and child have shelter than seeing them live in the car.

It sounded more of the father threatening which could get the father in trouble.

I d pray that the mother and the child will have shelter than seeing them living in the car.

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tasareinspace t1_j2jy9av wrote

Yeah, I'm a notary and like... all a notary does is confirm "yep, this person signed this piece of paper", the fact that it's notarized just means its confirmed that you signed it, it doesnt make or not make a contract enforceable if its not legal.

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2jtafj wrote

This is definitely not a creative writing piece. I am reaching out to shelters, don’t want to keep replying to people telling me to stay in the UK when that isn’t an option. I just want ideas to keep my 3 year old entertained while living in a car for a short time until a shelter has space for me.

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[deleted] t1_j2kijpt wrote

Puzzles, plastic bath toys, coloring books, markers, crayons, play dough, stamps and an ink pad. I recommend contacting HAWC. They help a lot. They have things in their office they can give you. Toiletries. Bedding. Clothing. Toys. They sometimes have gift cards for local grocery stores, etc.

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2kp5g9 wrote

Thank you for the ideas. I haven’t heard of HAWC so I will look into them.

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[deleted] t1_j2kri8u wrote

I have used them in the past when I was leaving an abusive situation. They will help you fill out forms and help you figure out what steps to take. They also have an option where you can get free legal advice from a lawyer who works with them. They won’t be representing you - they won’t be YOUR lawyer - but they are lawyers who will meet with you for an hour and give you legal advice for questions you have. HAWC also has people who work inside the courthouse with victims and they will help you to fill out forms and sit with you in court and be a support system for you. My case ended up escalating to where the police messed up and I fought it so one of the lawyers from HAWC decided to be my lawyer with no charge. Not that they will always do that or be able to, but it’s possible.

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[deleted] t1_j2krmkl wrote

They can usually help you find a shelter too. Housing is backed up so bad, they can’t really shortcut that. But I definitely recommend going to them. I have myself.

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LackingUtility t1_j2kwtfy wrote

Why are you not replying to any of the people who pointed out how this path almost certainly will cause you to lose custody (and potentially face charges of neglect and child endangerment) and that talking to a lawyer is the best course of action?

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2kzfxl wrote

I have responded to a couple. I have no other choice. You do not know my child’s father the way I do. He also has connections to the police. He is controlling and it is all a way for him to control me. I have no other choice but to return to the US. I will be speaking with. DTA, DCF, Shelters, everywhere that I can to help seek shelter. Either way I’m at risk of losing my child. I’m and holding out hope that I will be given shelter. But I can’t control what space they have available. How about instead of trying to dig and accuse my situation of being fake, either provide some real advice for the question I’m asking or move on to another post. You’re not helping anyone right now with your comments.

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LackingUtility t1_j2l1k8c wrote

If this is real, this is the stupidest thing I've ever read. Let's you're telling the truth and your ex - in Massachusetts - really has strong connections to the police - presumably also in Massachusetts... So you're going to leave the UK, where your ex doesn't have connections to the bobbies, and going to a place where your ex has all the power, and you're likely going to be committing several crimes by endangering your child. Shit, why not just show up at your ex's house, throw a kilo of coke down like a smoke bomb, and hand him a pair of handcuffs?

Again, if this is real, here's some real advice - talk to a lawyer before you move back. There are free services for people in your position, both in the US and the UK. Heck, there's a dozen law schools in the Boston area that all have free clinics.

Or, alternately, just send your son to your ex. Because that's effectively what you're doing, and at least that way you'll stay out of jail.

But this probably isn't real, because at this point, it's just too stupid to be believed.

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mallorn_hugger t1_j2ojtqn wrote

I suspect drugs are involved here. Not because she's in an abusive relationship, and not because she is facing homelessness, but because of her nonsensical arguments.

When I had a friend who had a son about the same age, just under three, she had me help her escape her abusive husband. Don't get me wrong, he was an asshole. However, she was back on drugs and was lying through her teeth about it. She made circular arguments like this that made absolutely no sense. She hyped up her victim status, adding more and more embellishments to her husband's behavior. I have no doubt that her husband was a bad man, and I blame his abusive, controlling behavior has the thing that ultimately brought her back to drugs. However, in hindsight, I understand how much she was blowing things up, exaggerating, and lying. The drug use was also making her paranoid, hypervigilant, and skewing her perceptions of reality.

The question here shouldn't be "how can I keep my 3-year-old entertained in a car all day", but "how can I keep us from living in our car". Blows my mind that she has made these assumptions, without even consulting a lawyer. My friend also refused to follow legal advice, and kept lying and trying to manipulate the system, and trying to get people to believe her as a victim. Ultimately, she permanently lost custody of her son. I am not in touch with her anymore, but I know that her husband has full custody and she has visitation rights, and it has now been 5 years.

OP, if you read this, for the love, talk to a lawyer and follow their advice. At least make a post over on r/legal. You are saying things, and making assumptions about the system, that just simply do not make sense. It's like you're getting all of your understanding of the world from a Lifetime movie. That's why people are having a hard time believing you. No one can understand why you would leave home and shelter with your parents, to come live in your car with a preschooler in a Massachusetts winter. If a lawyer tells you it is in your best interest to do so, well that would make that decision make a lot more sense, but to assume that is your only option ( regardless of how bad your ex is, and whether or not he has connections to police) without finding out whether or not that is true is ridiculous. At the end of the day, police actually have very little say over any of this. Custody is determined by the courts, not by police. The police cannot actually legally take your child from you, without a court order, and even then DCF would also be involved. I know this for a fact, because of what I went through with my friend. Also, my father is a lawyer. It doesn't matter how many friends he has, unless they are all willing to give up their careers, the police are not just going to come in and take your kid. That is just not how it works. Now, he could take hold of the kid and refuse to give the kid back to you, and for the same reasons, the police could not take the child away from him. He is the child's legal father, and without a court order, the child cannot be removed from his custody. That is how my friend lost her son. Her husband showed up at their house, and took their child, and she never had custody of the child again. Granted, he took the child while my friend was high on drugs, and my friend lost her child because she couldn't pass a drug test. If my friend had passed her drug test, and hadn't been actively using, the courts would have worked out a custody order, and she would have had shared custody, or perhaps full custody, because her husband was no Peach either. That poor kid. He really got the short end of the stick....

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MalyutkaB t1_j2l7lbc wrote

No no, he is controlling and manipulating so she must come back, live in a car, lose her child and then?????

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GalacticP t1_j2kp7cm wrote

You’re the one telling us that none of the shelters in multiple states had room for you before. Why are you so sure this time will be different?

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2kpi4g wrote

Im not saying it will be different. That is why I am seeking ways to entertain my child while living out of a car until I can get space in a shelter or secure childcare and a job and get an apartment.

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fendent t1_j2iimke wrote

Speak to a lawyer about this rather than making assumptions (if you haven’t already). Agreements are only enforceable if a judge agrees. Family courts are (supposed to be) about the safety and best interests of the child.

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misterforsa t1_j2ihni8 wrote

As the other guy said, if kidnapping charges are you're biggest concern, talk to a lawyer. You're right to a safety and shelter should supersede the abusive father's right to your child. There shouldn't be any reason to return to the states when you have family in UK willing to take you in.

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pro_auto_advisors t1_j2in7iq wrote

Not a lawyer but this is an important distinction.

Is it a court ordered agreement, or merely an agreement between the two of you that was notarized?

The fact that it is notarized doesn’t necessarily make it legally enforceable. If it came from a legal authority then the story is different.

Please seek legal counsel to understand your options.

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SpindriftRascal t1_j2jvzzu wrote

No; the story is the same. The federal statute criminalizing international parental kidnapping treats custody the same “whether arising by operation of law, court order, or legally binding agreement of the parties.”

OP - do not take legal advice from Reddit. Not even from lawyers on Reddit. They’re often wrong.

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2jtfdz wrote

We don’t have any custody agreements through the courts. We both have joint custody right now

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LackingUtility t1_j2jvgz6 wrote

Then your notarized agreement means nothing, and you can’t get kidnapping charges. If he ex tries, the cops will say it’s civil, not criminal, and to take it up with the court.

If you come here and endanger your kid by sleeping in your car in a New England winter, you probably will lose the kid though. If they survive, that is.

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Crunchyundies t1_j2isqi5 wrote

No… no it would not. Take control of your life. Stop letting men dictate what you do. No court would prosecute you for staying there in order to not make your child homeless

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SaveCachalot346 t1_j2ipua0 wrote

Could you take legal action to get full custody whilst living in the UK temporarily

>bring his son back to him especially when we have notarized

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chickadeedadee2185 t1_j2jboyc wrote

Yes, they would. Don't doubt anything when it comes to child welfare especially if Dad pushes it. Bad advice.

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new_Australis t1_j2ig321 wrote

Kidnapping charges? Doubtful. The obvious choice is to stay in the uk with your family, coming to mass and spending the winter sleeping in your car with a child is not a logical choice.

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ICQME t1_j2iuq0g wrote

I imagine CPS would take the child away and/or the dad would get full custody if mom is homeless. returning makes no sense if there's family to stay with in the UK

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buried_lede t1_j2jccjq wrote

Court ordered custody arrangements are no joke. Parents are arrested for kidnapping routinely. But OP hasn't said if this is court ordered and also, considering she is homeless and her ex is abusive, I think she should call the Boston legal resource someone mentioned to address her relocation questions

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notanotheramber t1_j2itxsw wrote

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Living in a car will default child to "abusive" dad immediately. Get your shit together, stop worrying about dating, and provide a stable life for your child. Your run out of one man's arms into another.

Not to mention the kid has a passport in your possession and left the country with you legally. Don't make stupid excuses for sympathy.

Also: your biggest concern is keeping the child entertained in a car... But the ex is giving back the car

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2ju4hi wrote

I had no choice but to move in with this man, I felt like my life was in danger. I called every shelter in MA, RI and CT and not a single shelter could help me. I called for months.

Also my ex has to give me back my car when I return as it is my car, solely in my name.

Who are you to judge? If you have nothing nice to say keep your judge comments to yourself or take them elsewhere. I am seeking advice while I do what I know I need to do. I put my son first always. They will not take my son if I am seeking shelter and working with a shelter to find a place. Just because you’re life is easier than mine don’t tell me to focus on providing a stable life for my child when that is exactly what I am doing, alone in a country with no help or guidance.

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notanotheramber t1_j2juqss wrote

So if you had to move in with him you should have been making moves for your own spot from second one and not relied on him for anything. Must be nice to be "homeless" yet fly over seas for holidays... "Hey family, I'm f'n homeless, can I get a deposit on a place instead of 2 plane tickets?" Or if you bought the plane tickets then you should have known better.

These are dumb decisions. I am judging. I'm a single mom. Get it together it's about your child, not you. Keeping my child safe and housed is priority one, I didn't date or have sex for 4 years after her father left. Don't tell me whose life is easier, I just put my kid first. You probably got an iphone too. Just dumb.

Edit: also.... How to keep my 3 year old busy in a car we live in.... Why? Would the bored 3 year old ruin your good time? Yes. The entertainment of the 3 year old is what's important here. Stupid.

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ItalianMama95 OP t1_j2jzdwe wrote

Excuse you, maybe if you had read other comments then you would learn that I did make moves for my own place. I was in transitional housing. My sons daycare closed in June suddenly so I lost my job due to lack of childcare. I couldn’t just leave him with family or a friend because I have none in the us. If I can’t work, guess what, I can’t pay the fee to stay in transitional housing. The shelter gave me 30 days notice and said I had to leave. My mother bought our plane tickets to the uk and has been paying for us for the last 2 months and has given me money to help. However, I can’t just get an apartment without enough money for first, last and deposit or 2 of those. I can’t get an apartment without a job showing I have 3x the rent. I can’t get a job without childcare. So don’t talk to me about knowing better, I made decisions from the options I had. Maybe you would have done different but our situations are different, our options in life are different, you do not face the same struggles as me. So take your unkind words elsewhere because you are not helping me or my situation in anyway and just bringing more negativity to a bad situation. Way to kick another mother whilst she’s already down.

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cassettecollect t1_j2khigv wrote

All the comments are telling you the same thing. If you come here and endanger your child, you will lose custody.

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GrimeyPipes27 t1_j2ijtzg wrote

Your a mom in Massachusetts. Unless your an abusive drug addict piece of shit (I am not at all saying that you are, to be clear) the courts will rule in your favor. Especially if you have any proof of abuse. I wish you the best of luck.

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JurisDoctor t1_j2jq4y3 wrote

You need to talk to some UK lawyers and stay there. Don't bring that child back to homelessness in a New England winter.

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Available-Diet-4886 t1_j2j3xgh wrote

Talk to a lawyer. You don't want to risk child services taking your child in Massachusetts and sending them to your ex. It may make the situation of custody harder for you.

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furtyfive t1_j2jw75o wrote

check with a lawyer - if youre a uk citizen, there may not be a lot the bio dad can do if you decide to stay there, especially given your circumstances with housing. i have 2 american citizen friends who have had spouses or former partners take the kid to their own home country and it was a next-to-impossible/herculanean task to try and get kids back. countries were france and italy.

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