Every state has a different threshold for which a person can be placed in a secure psychiatric facility against their will. It used to be my job to be the person to make these decisions at a particular agency in Vermont. Here we pretty much have the highest bar for that to be able to occur. A person must be a danger to themselves or others and there must be no other lesser restrictive option to ensure safety before a person can be involuntarily hospitalized.

For a very small group of people this may prevent them from seeking treatment but most of the time it is lack of services. The mental health system in this country is in shambles and has been for decades.

Maybe that's a factor for some individuals, but for the majority, I would guess it's simply the cost and difficulty of finding someone to take your issues seriously and work with you over time to discover the best course of treatment. It can be a difficult process even in an area with plenty of services available, and sometimes the same issues that lead you to seek help make it that much harder to keep fighting an uphill battle.

There is zero need to own a gun.

There is an absolute need for mental health.

If someone is questioning which is priority I earnestly hope they get the help they need.

That said, cost has to be the larger prohibitive factor.

lol I worked hospital security...somewhere, and I would be afraid. Potential for a minimum 72 hour eval in a disgusting, locked down mental health unit in the emergency room with all your belongings taken from you and having to wear itchy paper scrubs you can't hang yourself with. Legitimately losing your freedom. One time a persons trailer park supervisor filled out paperwork on them and they got brought in by the PD. Taken in cuffs from their home because someone else said they were suicidal. Fucking ridiculous. Then if you do have issues, you'll probably be stuck there for weeks eating meds all day just to get through your misery while you wait to be sent to the state hospital for actual treatment, and be miserable there too. If you get pissed and freak out? Restrained to the bed and meds in your ass. The systems fucked, nurses crying at work and shit because it's all so fucked.

That's clearly not true considering the large number of people walking around with bad mental health.

We should remove the prohibition on owning firearms for people who have been involuntarily committed.

Mine's not even remotely related to "I cannot own a gun" because I already sort of can't (legally I can, but for my own safety I cannot) and have zero interest in owning one because I have no interest in hunting. It's definitely not an "important cultural aspect" for a lot of people.

I do not want to be involuntarily committed because I do not want to lose my right to my dignity, to my possessions, and I absolutely do not want to lose control of pretty much everything. I don't want to sit in a psych ward that is understaffed, in clothes that aren't mine, without the objects I use to comfort myself, being forced to take medication that I am afraid of having a bad reaction to.

I do go to therapy, and I do take my meds. But I often will shy away from discussing my suicidal thoughts with my therapist because I am TERRIFIED of being locked up. I had a not-stellar childhood that involved pretty strict control from one of my parents, and getting committed would actively make that trauma so much worse.

Zero percent surprised you don't see the correlation between that and the ills of society.

Yes. I have had suicide attempts and will not go to the ER. I had to superglue my arm shut. Because I will not be committed again. I'd literally rather die.

If you are having a "crisis" and go to an ER seeking help and say the "wrong" thing you will get locked up. If there is any way in the mind of the ER doctor that you might have said the "wrong thing" you will get locked up. It's not that they want to help you, it's that they don't want any liability of having seen you and then being liable for anything you might do after they release you. So off to the mental health unit you will go. Simply for them to avoid liability. You have no legal recourse.

A police officer does not have this kind of power - if you were arrested you would get to go before a judge to be considered for bail. But an ER doctor simply needs to write "S.I." on a form and sign it and you will be on your way to being locked up. No further review, and, the people that take you may not have any interest in treating you - you will simply be held until they get around to saying that you've stayed long enough.

Sucks. I would never -ever- talk to a medical doctor about my psychiatric issues.

This reeks of "I'm making shit up" or at least downplaying how actually fucked up the people "getting hauled away" are.

BTW, they can choose an institution and ambulance service that is not in your health plan. You can get stuck with many thousands of dollars of expenses that are not covered and which you had no option to refuse. A twenty mile trip from ER to institution in a crappy ambulance will cost you $4,000 - not covered.

I'd say the bills that result from it and the difficulty of finding a practitioner (especially one on your insurance if you don't have the $$$ for out of pocket/out of network) that's taking new patients are far larger obstacles for most.

Being involuntarily committed is/should be basically for if you're actively suicidal (or homicidal, I suppose). There's certainly cases where I can imagine it's a significant deterrent, but I also can't see a system where that isn't an available tool as reasonable either.

> As many people know, if you're involuntarily committed you lose your right to legally own a firearm,

I would generally suggest changing this to "with some kind of determination of illness by the institution" to at least reduce the chance that your rights are limited by just the opinions of one practitioner. If you got put on a 72hr hold and their opinion at the end of it is...."you're fine", that obviously shouldn't disqualify you.

I'd also prefer to see that have some kind of time-related sunset. If you were involuntarily committed once 20 years ago and have had no further interactions with the wrong side of the law/mental health interventions - I don't think that says much about your mental state now.

If you were involuntarily committed 6 months ago....you probably shouldn't be owning a firearm right now.

Where I do think gun control makes for a significant deterrent to accessing mental healthcare is in places that potentially put receiving any mental healthcare as a potential disqualifier for firearms ownership. NYC for example - requires disclosure of all mental healthcare received and medications, and is likely to try to refuse to issue a permit for any history.

What makes you think I don't see the connection?

Yeah because I would have any motivation to make this up. Go work in the emergency room and see 10 year olds on psych holds for 3 weeks straight sitting in a room all day losing their mind because their parents suck and see if it still "reeks". Fucking moron.

People involuntarily committed go through a court hearing to determine if they are a danger to themselves or others. They also have a representative or can hire one of their own for this. Sometimes they are let out at this point. But if multiple people determine you’re worthy of commitment, it’s pretty dire.

I can definitely say that i know people who feel that if they're honest about how often they have intrusive thoughts of this, that they risk getting a grippy-sock vacation.

This depends on the state. In my state specifically qualified people are required to agree with a doc. A doc alone does not have this power where I live.

I think most of us cannot be experts on this delicate subject, as the foundation of my reply. But I feel that people are generally afraid of being judged, and that mental health is the most invasive, vulnerable way to be judged that we have come up with.

Being judged makes us feel very strongly about many topics, all of them divisive. And part of being judged is our inclusion within, or deliberate exclusion without, a community.

That every human is always a single sentence away from losing their entire tribe of family, friends, and neighbors is what makes us all so fragile in this regard. (Hagrid: "Should not have said that")

So to be so vulnerable as to seek some mental health when you might need it, I'd have to salute or comfort anyone willing to do that because I share the world with that person, we don't experience it separately. And I can feel the nakedness and embarrassment of someone sharing that they've needed mental health because it's so profitable to judge and shame and ostracize. Kick the people who are down, it's the quickest win.

Just like we're all one sentence away from destroying our connection to people, we're all one bad experience away from losing our mental health. I believe that if you can view people through this lens that it's the tiniest bit easier to accept how precarious a situation we all are in and how much we might prefer we were all a little more accepting of each other at the outset of that one bad event.

I'm completely unqualified to have any opinion on this other than as being a person, though.

They have it in Mass and in NH.

I think it's more the "incarcerated by a company with a profit motive to keep you locked up" thing.

That's part of it. Involuntary commitment seems little better than prison.

Plus I'd assume inadequate resources and long wait list. On top of the usual problem of finding an adequate and compatible therapist.

I doubt gun rights are a major factor.

I have worked in a Psych ER. You have summed it up perfectly. Everyone I have known who ended up in a psych hospital said it was a horrible experience.

Take care of yourself. The world sucks, but there are good things about living. And yes, keep all suicidal thoughts to yourself. You don't want to go there!

There is also the issue of just being prescribed some medication without even being able to seek face to face therapy. If you go to your PCP, and tell them you are depressed, they will not recommend therapy but just give you pills.

Finding a qualified therapist is difficult too that has the experience to do quality counseling. If you end up with a dud, now you have to deal with that aspect.

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I say this as a former patient, fuck that. That's how you get Brenda Spencer.

Or more commonly, unalive ourselves. Being near a gun is an absolute nightmare when you have mental health issues

Sure but preventing people who have been involuntarily committed from having guns is not the same or even particularly similar to preventing "being near a gun when you have mental health issues"

Also, the Brenda Spencer case has nothing to do with this.

Short answer- yes.

Getting treatment in this country is like pulling teeth. Fuck, they'll deny you inpatient treatment if you use mobility aids like a walker or wheelchair.

Most of the time, you get assigned out patient.

If you get committed, its serious.

I'm super glad you don't have to worry about this, and don't care about people who do!

My friends are genuinely the only reason I haven't been committed - they have sat with me and checked up on me on nights where I was pretty sure I could manage the suicidal thoughts but couldn't be sure, and if they weren't there I would not be able to stay away from the ER.

Genuinely think I'd prefer going to prison over the psych ward

Psych wards are terrible. Been committed a couple times, not sure why people think that taking someone away from everything they have, stripping them of their belongings and in some cases putting them into financial hardship by not being able to work nor afford the medical care forced apon them. All being committed ever taught me was how to lie better so I don't end up back there.

That’s not true about the police at all. You get arrested on a Friday night and you don’t see the judge until Monday morning. Close enough to 72 hours…

There’s a dire shortage of mental health beds. There’s zero incentive to keep you there without cause.

That being said, at least the jail doesn’t charge you tens of thousands of dollars for holding you against your will. If you didn’t want to kill yourself before, you probably will when you see what the American “healthcare” mafia is extorting you for. You’ll long for the good old days when the mafia just broke your kneecaps instead when they wanted to rob you. Corporations are so much worse than Whitey Bulger or Al Capone ever was.

I really do feel for anyone battling these issues. I can’t imagine the hell and torture it must be to live like that everyday. But a poor woman getting raped in a Manchester cemetery, a beautiful couple getting murdered on a walk in Concord, a baby left to die in the freezing cold, thousands of vehicles and catalytic converters stolen and homes broke into. People getting accosted walking to work on Elm Street. Entire public spaces taken over and completely destroyed. At what point do the rest of us get to say it’s not fair that we are being victimized as well?

Former NH Hospital employee here of over 8 years.

They unfortunately aren't making shit up.

Maybe I’m just sorta in a bubble but I’ve never heard of this being a concern for people. More just that they can’t make the time, find the energy, or the money to pay for mental health services - or they are skeptical of medication or therapy based treatment effectivity.

I also think that, for the majority of people in the state seeking mental health treatment, there’s no (general) risk really at all of being involuntarily committed, because they’re suffering from ongoing malaise-type disorders like depression and anxiety.

Even if they’re in a depressive crisis, they still have their wits about them - but also they’ve never sought general therapy/psychiatric treatment before, so why would they make a call to emergency services if they felt suicidal?

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Don’t forget losing your job and then the inevitable homelessness because you were locked up with absolutely no notice.

I worked law enforcement for 8 years. No one wants to be locked up in any sort. Regardless if they deserve it or not.

“There is zero need to own a gun.“

That’s some top notch white privileged thinking right there. Level 10. There are plenty of single moms in poor neighborhoods that have used guns to save their kids from home invasions. Plenty of videos out there. I mean, not all of us can afford to live in nice low crime neighborhoods; or can afford private security like you. Outside your loving cozy bubble, the rest of us live in a dangerous world, filled with dangerous people who wouldn’t hesitate to harm kids or women for a quick fix.

It’s probably the label and easy access to medical records by nurses and everyone else that make people hesitant

I think the difficulty in finding mental health assistance is the biggest deterrent.

If someone is even remotely needing involuntary hospitalization, guns are the least of their worries. And quite frankly, I’d venture to guess most people committed involuntarily should not have access to guns. This is a weird ass post

This is 1000% not true in NH. Sure, say something vaguely suicidal to an ER doc and once you’re medically cleared you are off to the psych ED. You then get a mental health clinician evaluation - and if there is any concern of imminent harm to self or others an IEA is filled out. The person get a hearing in front of a judge. Involuntary admissions are decided by the NH state court. You can find more info here: https://www.dhhs.nh.gov/about-dhhs/locations-facilities/new-hampshire-hospital/nhh-involuntary-admissions

I know this is a bitter way to look at the world but also those people are just going through the motions of life too. They will commit you and just treat you like a number.

I believe there's cases where people pretended to be crazy for a story then it turns out they are classified as all sorts of mentally ill and are treated like everyone else there.

As others have said do the best you can but id fight being sent to one of those places.

Mental health care here in new hampshire is a joke. I'm currently waiting to get in with a therapist and it's been eight weeks. I've gone to the ER in the past for attempts twice only to walk out a few hours later after being told by the crisis counselor "you are young, your parents love you. Quit doing this stuff for attention"(newsflash: this happened almost five years ago and my parents were incredibly emotionally abusive I was in fact NOT attention seeking...fuck you community partners). I'm in a safe and loving place now but I'm lucky to have friends who care about me and were able to assist me in escaping an abusive home situation and get to a better place

fear of being involuntarily committed is a problem

google says this is extremely rare

I’d say the reason we have a lot of suicides involving firearms in this country is because people think you lose your gun rights if you’re admitted to a psych hospital or any facility to seek mental health treatment. The key thing is that you have to be involuntarily committed, meaning if you go willingly, you’re probably going to be fine when it comes to maintaining your rights.

I voluntarily committed after a suicide attempt, and they held me for two months once they learned I had a child. When I decided to go in, I called a close friend (who was also a mother) and asked if she would keep and care for him while I got some help. He was perfectly safe, I got updates during my daily phone call with her (they take your cell phone, but allow two 15min calls from the desk a day).

I didn't bring him up at first because I was nervous about how they'd react, and sure enough, they upped my medication dosage and all of my talk sessions became about him, and where he was. I held the line "He's safe with a family member." Until they ran out of steam. Longest two months of my life, I will never go back if I can help it.

The thing is, once you're in, you're powerless.

Hello, EMT here. There’s a difference between being involuntarily committed and voluntarily. Typically what will happen is that someone, either the patient themselves or close friend, family member, etc, will call with concern about the patient’s mental health. This can be suicidal thoughts, aggressive behavior, etc. Police and myself get called, police make sure that the person is not an immediate danger to others so that I can come in. I’ll come in, find out what’s going on and the backstory. Usually, the patient says, yes, I’ve been having some mental health issues, I want to go to the hospital. They ride in the back and everything is cool.

That is voluntary admission. The patient does so of their own free will.

Involuntary admission is when the patient presents and imminent danger to themselves or others as determined by myself and/or PD and they are refusing treatment or at least transport and evaluation by the hospital psychologist. Because they are a danger, they are involuntary brought in by PD and treatment proceeds from there.

Whether that distinction is made in the law, I do not know, but there is a difference between the two

That is simply not true. A psychologist performs an evaluation of the patient and determines whether or not they are a current danger to themselves or others and treatment goes from there. I have transported well above 100 psych patients and only 1 or 2 have been involuntary. Most patients in those crises want all the help they can. No one get institutionalized anymore. It’s a couple weeks of therapy at a behavioral health facility and then you get to go home

I have worked at both and I can promise you a psych ward is a lot nicer

I work in a hospital and we had someone come into the emergency room seeking psych help. We were full in the general ward and couldn't admit her. We called every hospital in the state and as soon as they heard she was self admitting for psych they all said no. Psych help in this state is atrocious.

It took me a long time to seek help, yes, having my rights restricted were part of it. But I was also worried about if it would impact my work, or ability to find future employment.

Hey , just wanted to say that maybe you’re not looking at the “not telling my therapist about my suicidal thoughts “ the right way. Or maybe you are ? Sometimes people have “intrusive suicidal thoughts “. That’s normal and worth mentioning to a therapist. They know this. I know from my own personal experience with my bipolar 2 condition that I’ll have those thoughts. It’s not the same as being actually suicidal.

Anyways , just wanted to put that out there so you can get the most out of your therapy sessions. Just say “you know , I’m not suicidal, but I do have intrusive thoughts about suicide or I’m just not wanting to be here “. They know that language isn’t the same as somebody being actually suicidal and can help unearth what’s the root cause of that or help your process those thoughts. I hope that makes sense.

Good luck on your journey to better mental health. You’re doing great!!!!

Utter Bullshit. BTDT.

Went to Lahey seeking help but was NOT suicidal and said so. Was immediately prevented from leaving ER by nurse and security. Was kept for ten days in Haverhill. No treatment. I was not suicidal, nor a danger to anyone else. It was simply the convenience of the ER doctor. And, when I got to Haverhill the head nurse clearly stated that her concern was her liability. There was no treatment, just confinement. For profit.

The difference between a mental hospital and a jail is simply that the mental hospital has upholstery.

It is a for-profit institution that works to keep all of its beds full with whomever they manage to catch. $1,000 a day, maximize the days., minimize the services, no treatment, just bad food and a jail cell with upholstery. Literally.

A woman was brought in to the institution. She was in the middle of moving from one state to another with both her possessions and her dog in transit. She needed to be present when her stuff and more importantly her dog arrived - there was no one else to take over. She was freaking out not because of her problems but because the institution would not even consider letting her go and care for her dog. As she was freaking out about this, lying on the floor screaming, some asshole nurse just tried to calm her down saying there, there, it's not that bad.

Myself, I was in the middle of job interviews for my current job. I needed that job but no, that wasn't a valid reason to leave. Nor was he need to help my partially disabled wife. Another woman who was there found out her 82 year old husband had been admitted for heart surgery just as she came in. Did this matter to the staff? Hell no.

$1,000 per day. Keep them over the holidays and a weekend, then a three day becomes a ten day - after they conveniently lose your petition for release that you signed the first day you were locked up.

By NH law the person can easily be held for a week while getting before a judge.

You talk as if "a couple weeks of therapy at a behavioral health facility" is no big deal? Let it happen to you and see how you like it!

I think more than anything it’s still the stigma. Took a long time to admit I had issues with anxiety because I was so worried what people would think. Then even when I admitted to myself I should speak to someone I’d literally run into and out of the therapist’s office to avoid being seen. Until we treat getting help for mental health issues like any other health problem I’m sure a lot of people are going to avoid seeking treatment.

Well, if someone says they are suicidal, we have to take it seriously. An ER doctor cannot clear patients who say they are suicidal, it has to be a psychologist, and most hospitals do not have one.

If they let you go before there is an evaluation and you go into the parking lot and kill yourself, then the hospital and the providers are liable for that and they can receive criminal charges. The nurses couldn’t care less about profit. They want to make sure you are not a threat to yourself before you’re released

My point about a couple weeks is that people aren’t held for months or years at a time like what used to happen. It’s much shorter. Obviously a couple weeks is still more time then you would like but it’s not what it used to be. I apologize for the confusion

I one time voluntarily committed myself and it only made things worse. The bill at the end adds a lot of insult to injury and definitely didn't help.

That said, I work in mental health and in my training at least we are taught that there's a huge difference between suicidal thoughts/ideation and suicidal intent, and sending people to the hospital involuntarily is an absolute last resort. As a mentally ill person with suicidal ideation, I appreciate this policy a lot. I appreciate it for my clients, too, as I mean... Most of the people struggling from mental health issues right now are actually struggling from poverty issues that are causing the mental health issues. Taking away their income and strapping them with a huge bill is likely to exacerbate the problem.

Also, the hospitals are full right now. There is a massive bed shortage and it takes a long long time to find anywhere to even send anyone. They prioritize only sending people when it is absolutely needed, because honestly there's not enough room.

All of that is to say, talking about suicide is the best way to prevent suicide. I'm not going to tell you that you HAVE to tell your therapist, that's a decision you have to make for yourself, but talking to someone about it is the best way to work through it. Hiding it only gives it power and makes it seem like this big shameful secret that is too terrible to bear. When you start talking about it, you are able to move through it instead of letting it sit there and get worse.

I think people are seeking mental health help, but the waits are literally like 8 months long.

They have absolutely no need to falsely imprison people to fill those beds… people who need inpatient care who go voluntarily are regularly being turned away due to the shortage.

Also, I think you forgot a zero… $1000 a day? Lmao this is America. I was in an ER for 2 hours after a car crash and the healthcare mafia demanded $5k.

Maybe... if they weren't imprisoning people who didn't belong there, then there would be beds for those who really need them.

There was NO treatment being given. None. Nada. No counseling, no medication. Not just me but everyone. The "doctor" didn't even know why I was there and he made it clear that he didn't want to know. I got three to five minutes a day with him (when he was in, no weekends or holidays) and it was basically to prove to him that I was cooperating with the program. It was clear to all of us that to talk back to him in any manner would simply prolong our time there.

Did I mention the abusive staff? Nurses who made fun of us? Who would wake us up in the middle of the night constantly?

Insurance was billed $10,000 for nine days. I am still paying (as slowly as I can) the $2,000 deductible. That does not include the $4,000 to be made to sleep on a stretcher in the ER. And the $800 portion of the $4,000 ambulance ride.

Many years ago, the fear of that definitely made me be more closed off initially with my therapist at the time, when I was having issues with intrusive thoughts. Which is a problem, because the root of that problem is fear anyway. Damn positive feedback loops.

The solution in my experience was that I grew to trust that provider. Also, realizing that it’s an irrational fear in my case. They don’t send you on a grippy socks vacation for suicidal thoughts, if you don’t also have a plan and intent.

Also, uhh, you must not live here… Statistically speaking, one of my two neighbors almost certainly owns a gun, but it’s not a cultural thing here at all. If you assume Northern New England is like the rest of rural white America culturally, you’ll constantly miss the mark due to stereotypes. It’s the least religious area in the country, and people keep their religion to themselves for the most part. Guns are similar. Most people don’t really flaunt them around here like you’d see down south. Unless they’re a Free Stater or you saw them using a gun (ie. backyard target shooting, hunting, etc), you probably wouldn’t know if they owned one. Guns aren’t a personality around here.

Is this... really a potential outcome to seeking help? I've never even considered that a possibility. I mean, I probably don't have the type of mental problems that would make that an appropriate response. But how many people are really at risk for that?? Are there that many people walking around who are a danger to themselves and others? And you're saying those people are likely to be gun owners?

I would think the main reasons people don't get help are financial costs, and social stigmas, with a side of "tried that and had a bad or unproductive experience".

Edit: Well I wasn't worried about this before, but after reading the comments, I'm terrified! What the kind of bullshit is that? It's like a hell that anyone could be dragged off to if the wrong person hears you say the wrong thing? Where you have to pay thousands of dollars to be imprisoned against your will and mistreated?

Sick bastards.

How can they charge you for "services" you didn't ask for or agree to ? If you're there involuntarily, and they're not only taking away your whole life, and all the control you had over it, but also sticking you with the bill?? That's just wrong on so many levels. What a racket.

It absolutely is a racket, healthcare in this country is messed up

God those people are evil.