Good thread discussing Turnpike's own admission their plans are going to result in a parking lot highway to wait for the same Holland Tunnel bottleneck: https://twitter.com/robhisme/status/1593298482546212865

I have no clue why they want to shovel all this money at this dumb highway instead of fixing Nj Transit.

NJ Transit's entire yearly capital improvement budget is 2.6 billion. we could probably build an entire new rail line for 10.7 billion.

...probably why we have yet another toll increase.

If you're not familiar with the details of the Newark Bay-Hudson County Extension, what people also call I-78 or just the Turnpike Extension – it's only 8.1 miles long and ends in two lanes heading into the Holland Tunnel. So we're talking about over $1.3 billion per mile. No, no, not paved in gold, same as all the other Jersey highways.

10.7 billion dollars to add traffic to the roads... Think about the rail service that could be improved and expanded with this.

Murphy has to stop this nonsense now. We could use that money to fully fund our end of the Gateway Tunnel and get some other great mass transit projects moving. The NJTPA is a 20th Century dinosaur.

But then less people would drive on the turnpike which would cause the turnpike authority to lose money. And if highways lose enough money and popularity, their highways might get demolished, and they'll be out of a job.

Studies have shown its actually about half that .

I mean studies actually show about 2.7 billion but somehow when the started it a few years back - it was up over a billion before they even finished phase 1 of 6 staging that was only supposed to cost 200 million MAX with that including delays . Delays had entire staffs sitting around doing almost nothing for weeks or months - no one called them off stopped anything.

Someone should of gone to jail for that but it was barely a media .....200 million dollars in payroll for thousands of works and tons of supplies that sat around for months doing nothing but collecting checks.

I mean the 2023 fiscal year has a capital improvement budget of 2.64 billion.

Wait, the other Jersey highways are paved in gold, though.

The NJTA is funded by their tolls. I'm pretty sure Murphy can't tell them how to spend it.

10 billion is probably to cost of the full build of the Newark LRT which would connect the various cities and dense towns in Essex / Union / Passaic / Hudson Counties...servicing a population of 1 million... I'm told theres never any money for mass transit expansion in this state but billions flow freely to the highway and road network.

Money would be better spent building another bridge across the Hudson, or better yet, a series of bridges that go straight from NJ to Queens.

The Cross Harbor tunnel would be a better investment as it would take trucks bound for Long Island off the regional highway network. Its projected cost was around 8 billion...if they were serious about actually reducing tunnel congestion they would consider that or at least study it..

I hadn’t heard of the project but based on your description I imagine it would definitely alleviate a ton of traffic in between NJ and LI

That's wrong. NJTA is a public authority whose board is selected by the NJ Governor and whose minutes, meaning their legal decisions, can be vetoed by Murphy. In fact, there is some money going to NJ Transit already although it's payback for past diversions and also temporary. It's NJ's money.

For 10 billion you can get all the projects listed below

• Northern Branch LRT - 8 mi - 8 Stations
• Glassboro LRT - 18 mi - 14 Stations
• Newark-Paterson LRT - 24 mi - 20 stations
• Newark-Elizabeth-Cranford LRT - 12 mi - 16 stations
• MOM Rail Network - 2 lines - 54 mi - 15 stations
• West Trenton Line - 24 mi - 6 stations

here it is

But in what way is NJ Transit connected to NJTA? They aren't, and each have their own budgets and revenue streams to address what each entity is responsible for in regards to M&O and capitol programs. So ones spending spree, no matter the proposed use, has no affect on the needs or wants of other agencies.

Interesting idea to keep trucks off the commuter roadways. Either way we could really use another Hudson crossing and a limited access highway between NJ and Queens/LI

The money is from the people of NJ and run by our state. If the TA is profligate in their spending then they should have some of their money sent to others like NJ transit who could invest it more wisely.

I think I read somewhere the Fed won’t allow them to move their revenue to the state only allowing it for roads

Well let’s go get Pete Buttige on the phone, he loves trains

That would reduce toll revenues too so a non-starter

Well the out of starters driving thru also contribute. All the toll money, train and bus passes don't go into one bucket to be freely shared. And if you think NJ Transit could manage the money better, then you are the only one.

Invest in NJ Transit not this. We already have more highways per Capita than any other state. Scrap this and build some more rail lines!

Can't wait for them to widen this highway, watch as traffic congestion levels quickly return to exactly what they were before because of induced demand, and then proceed to learn absolutely nothing whatsoever and do it all over again. Might as well just burn the money in a big pit to save everyone some time.

Can the TA invest their money in bonds? if they can have NJtransit issue bonds and then we are in business.

This stinks like Robert Moses all over again, when will Americans and especially NJ really go back to investing into transit that improves property values and creates locations and communities?

NJTA doesn't receive Federal funding. In fact, a drop in the bucket when we're talking statewide line items, but NJTA is sending a few hundred million per year to NJTransit. The state is free to do as it pleases with NJTA revenue as long as it is able to make payments on its bonds.

This is why people are calling to disband the NJTA.

The Newark bay bridge does need to be replaced. I wouldn’t call that useless. The article says the bridge was built in 1956, which means it’s social security age.

I don’t know if raising the bridge will increase the effectiveness of the overall port because there isn’t much north of the bridge, but that should be considered.

There is significant opposition to Glassboro LRT. Many nimbys oppose and its going to be doa

Ah ok, I just remembered them saying they hey could sell bonds to like Arkansas or something for turnpikes

Really? That would be unwise. Bitch all you want about any proposal such as this, but it is a fairly well run agency.

rubbing hands together yes…

Well thank God we all paid our taxes this year!

and for causing traffic in our state they can subsidize our public transportation.

How so? $10 billion boondoggles aside, of course.

Crap ton of people use that tunnel. That area is a blight and it would be great to fix some of its many problems. Bridges have needed replacing for decades. Some of this is that NJ and actually most of the US desperately needs to update its infrastructure.

> tons of supplies that sat around for months doing nothing

This happens a lot. My old job had at least a million dollars worth of datacenter equipment just sitting around for over a year waiting for "resources" (eg. people they refused to hire more of and time they demanded be spent elsewhere). Then they got bought out by a much larger company and suddenly it was very important that the months-long process of standing up the new in parallel, testing, fixing, cutting over, fixing more, and decommissioning the old be completed in two weeks. Buncha clowns.

I don't see anyone bitching about the 6 to 9 widening or the GSP widening that took place over the last decade, and in some cases under budget. They have a 10 year, $24B capital program they are on now that includes widening from Exit 4 to Delaware. Not to mention all the old bridges being repaired or replaced - all the while keeping the operations of each road moving fairly well. And whatever is being planned for this extension will take 20-30 years to be completed, at best. So future planning that may not make a whole lot of sense now, still need to be made and we can't just be thinking for today. North Jersey wouldn't be North Jersey without the infrastructure to make it happen. Yet we keep spitting out more people who need to move around, so instead of waiting for the Jetsons to show us the way that is better, we need to keep improving what we have.

So, back to your question, who would take over these decisions and planning/design processes? What other agency in your eyes would perform better and for less money, while keeping the economic engine of the region performing at it's highest level?

Highway widening doesn't work. Induced demand has been known for decades. All the NJTA has in their capital plan is highway widening. It's an agency staffed by engineers, funding engineers.

Are you downvoting my replies? lol

That's correct, to an extent. It's also a prime mover behind sprawl that is an issue. Water under the bridge in NJ. But it takes multi-faceted solutions that has to be accepted and used. Mass transit needs to be better used, but that's not the prime mission of the Turnpike Authority. And what was good for a population in the 40's and 50's isn't going to satisfy the population of now and for the 60-70 ensuing years.

> $10 billion boondoggles aside, of course.

Would you prefer they not update estimates for capital projects instead? It's not like they've put contracts out to bid.

I’m so sick of how much things cost in this fucking state. Why is France able to build capital projects for a fraction of the price in much less time with all their unions?

they don't have subcontractors for every little thing and projects like this are just infrastructure not a jobs program.

it's easy, even understandable for voters to become inured and numb to these ever-increasing, stratospheric figures, but we cannot. if we dont demand that every tax dollar is spent wisely, all of NJs public services will rapidly deteriorate. this is something no politician D or R wants to hear but they all must

guess they have to raise tolls again 🙈

K can we do that

Thats the goal with public transportation.

yeah its possible but leadership would have to choose to do so and they're happy with it.

The turnpike is basically subsidizing Amazon and Walmart at this point.

New York doesn't want our fucking cars in their city and I don't blame them.

Replace what's falling down, add park and rides paired with more bus lanes and build some fucking light rail.

What don't NIMBYs oppose? They hate roads being built, they hate transit being built, they hate buses, and they hate traffic.

Go on, I’m almost there

The right of ways would be turned rail and stations would have mixed use development with low and midrise buildings and at the same time connecting most warehouses to containerized shipping cutting the number of trucks on the road dramatically.

Time for my favorite construction quote. “There’s dollars in confusion”. !

No , I don’t read the article but I’ll look now

Unfortunately, it seems that we’re going to need a great amount of voices to halt this one, being that it’s just ever growing. We should seriously use that funding for the greenways around The state. Nj transit can use this yes but most of us know how that’ll end up. Things like the Essex Hudson greenway? Cmon! that’s a wonderful step forward towards alternate transportation. The bridges along that line are deteriorated and it’s going to need a great deal of good work to make sure they’re safe, functioning properly, and maintained correctly, instead of trying to make the state an eyesore of swelling, backed up traffic ways maybe we should try to restore the actually beauty of the garden state. They call it the garden state. Can we stop the garbage and make sure it stays that way? As someone who seriously appreciates our planet and the ecosystem we live in, I say we use the green for the green

Graft and it turns out that for-profit companies given free reign to do what they want are not the most efficient at everything there is, like this.

And piss off the fossil fuel industry that's made NJ their home?

Only 2 towns oppose it , the rest support it...and its in the funding phase..

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The lines will provide far more value

It’s really a lot of New York cars and trucks. Though the money can be much bette spent

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That’s be nice too but we really need to cut down on the number of cars in the road. People keep moving here, and it’s never going to stop. Our train system is good for US standards, but if we connected cities instead of making everyone go to Secaucus or Newark people would actually have a reason to use it.

> Our train system is good for US standards, but if we connected cities instead of making everyone go to Secaucus or Newark people would actually have a reason to use it.

Oh, I agree here. You need three things to get people to use public transportation:

1. Clean & Safe.
2. Reliable.
3. Cost effective.

• Clean & Safe (ok, technically two words) - but someone should be able to take a train (or a bus) and it shouldn't feel like you are taking a cattle car. You make the ride a pleasant experience and people will associate that with taking a train. Example? Take a train in France. They are really much nicer than what we have at NJ transit. It's not first class, but taking a train in France is a pleasant experience.

• Reliable, you need the train (or bus) to operate in such a way that you can calculate the timetables and it's faster or equal than driving to work. People would give up their cars if they knew they could drive to a train station or a bus depot, park their car, and get on a high-speed mass transit solution that is faster (or equal to) driving to work.

• Cost effective, this is my biggest pet peeve. You really need to design tolls to discourage people from driving from NJ into NYC. Congestion pricing needs to be embraced. Far too many people choose to drive to work because the first two things I pointed out discourage them from driving into work. Some people work 'off hours' and can quickly drive into Manhattan, pay a toll and find street parking.

One key I didn't point out was with the turnpike extension, they hopefully add a 3rd lane to design high speed bus lines during rush hour (like they have at the Lincoln Tunnel near Weehawken). Also, if they can figure out a way to bypass traffic at the Jersey City/Hoboken area - maybe create a 2nd level that goes over the lights and directly to the tunnels?

their permitting and inspection process is way less cumbersome than ours.. we have layers upon layers of regulation, the French don't

They do now.

They need to replace the whole viaduct from Exit 14 to the Holland Tunnel. Since they are replacing the entire viaduct, they are looking at potential demand including from Hudson County. That is why the cost is so high. It is being discussed in the media as a widening only while this is both a widening and replacement. It will still cost a lot of money to replace the viaduct even if they don't add any extra lanes or shoulders.

The widening isn't going to widened at the tunnel, but before to address industrial traffic from Bayonne and Jersey City. This includes the Bayonne Container Terminal, which is seeing increased traffic from international trade.

Sanzari needs a new yacht

This is another reason why I left

this is just a reminder that the turnpike authority is a completely separate entity from the department of transportation and does not take in any state tax money. it issues its own bonds and designs its own projects and pays for all of this with your ever increasing tolls. this isn't passing a value judgement on how money is spent (although it's time for the njta to take a serious look at how it budgets things), but before you come in hot with "for that amount of money, we could have x, y, and z!" remember that the njta for its faults is a self sustaining thing so this isn't taking money away from another project that you think matters more.

truthfully, njt probably would need 20-30 billion to get all of its lines in a state of good repair and electrified which would be a good first step that will never get realized unfortunately.

You could not be further from the truth. France is one of the few countries were a majority of roads are privately managed.

I'm sorry but this is simply one of the most deranged things I've ever read. Nothing short of a nuclear war could ever facilitate the demolition of the NJ Turnpike. There's a lot of ways to reduce traffic on it sure but it's simply too vital of road for private use and commercial trucking. It serves literally hundreds of thousands of passengers and thousands of tons of freight per day. There is frankly no substituting all of that with bus and rail.

Are you sure? there doesn't seem to be a mention of it on their budget. Granted I only read the summary of the expenses.

The 2022 Budget in Brief Page 13 has three lines: 2016 State Transportation Projects Funding Agreement, 2021 State Transportation Projects Funding Agreement, and Proposed Gateway Project Tunnel.

The transfers are large enough to be in the summary.

you dont understand - all they have to do is build 1000 train lines instead and everything will be magically fixed

They don't oppose their backyards

You'd be surprised

perhaps it’s time to create an additional agency to handle specific new construction road projects. we will need a study commission first, staffed by no one with construction or infrastructure experience. they will need office space, a web site, full staff from janitorial to accounting. we need to compensate them well because they are doing hard work. then once a web portal is established, potential contractors can apply for a license to be reviewed by commission. the application fees should be tiered based on diversity/equity/inclusion standards. once all the applications are received, the commission needs a year to review the applications to pick winners and losers. naturally, they will have to pick the two largest politically connected contractors in the state because they have the most money and experience filling out applications. plus having their own legal department helps a bit.

Keep voting the same trash heaps in

No? It appears that neither you or the Twitter poster understand what you're reading.

The "increased vehicle storage space" is in the sense that there will no longer be traffic waiting to head to 11th sitting in the queue at the Jersey Ave light.

If 25% of cars were going to 11th before, building a new exit taking them off the road before there means there's now 25% more queue space leading to the the Jersey Ave light.

The net result of this is that traffic into Newport/that region of JC would be far less impeded by the Holland Tunnel backups. As you are presumably aware, 11th St is intentionally configured to make it impractical to use to try to cheat the Holland Tunnel queues and that wouldn't be changing.

The purpose of the Turnpike's Extension's expansion is for increasing traffic demands on the NJ side from both the port/industry and general population growth on the east side of the bay, not for somehow increasing Holland Tunnel throughput.

I'm not endorsing the plan, to be clear. But your criticism isn't at all about the problem they're claiming to be doing this for or fixing.

You have to remember that modern Reddit is almost entirely idealistic trend-chasing teenbrains. They're so detached from reality that they think the average person will suddenly want to take 4 times as long and 10 times the effort to get somewhere via bike/train...instead of just driving. They have the reasoning abilities of a sheltered teenager, and it doesn't help that in most subreddits they actually are that.