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code_archeologist t1_jb17vc0 wrote

Bibi needs the military to buy into his shit in order to maintain power. If this is the start of a more general resistance against the ruling coalition by the military then his government is in serious trouble.


Ligma_Bowels t1_jb1ogko wrote

The military refusing orders from the civilian government is usually a sign that the government has lost legitimacy in the eyes of its citizens.


Areljak t1_jb1tz9c wrote

There are many potential reasons for something like this, including the military (or parts of it) developing its own political ambitions, being beholden to another power in some manner or seeing itself in a role which might require disobedience under certain circumstances... To name a few.

In this case it would be a sign of grassroots opposition to the ambitions of the ruling coalition.


SorryPiaculum t1_jb273wa wrote

When you have a ruling government actively trying to weaken their countries judiciary, military protests sound pretty reasonable. Any attempt to weaken a democracies system of checks and balances should be seen as an attack on democracy itself.


ParaBrutus t1_jb26aed wrote

They just had an election in November. It’s a slippery slope whenever the military refuses to follow orders from democratically elected leaders, particularly when they are protesting judicial reforms which are arguably legal but that they don’t like. It’s one thing for soldiers to refuse unlawful orders and another for them to refuse to follow orders, in general, because they don’t like the policies of their civilian leaders, in general. These are not 18-yo conscripts, they are pilots with a lot of training and responsibility.


Areljak t1_jb29vt6 wrote

They are reservists who serve voluntarily.


Tersphinct t1_jb3w2ne wrote

Reserves are mostly mandatory in Israel, not voluntary.


LongGrift t1_jb57tzx wrote

They volunteer for more days than what is mandatory


Tersphinct t1_jb59bg5 wrote

Many are "volunteered" without their knowledge. My dad got caught up in one of those schemes, and they basically excused it with saying they didn't wanna bother him with the paperwork where he asks to volunteer, so they just filed it for him an told him to show up for more days than he was supposed to.

Very few actually volunteer on purpose.


ParaBrutus t1_jb2d0jd wrote

The entire US military is voluntary—that doesn’t give them the right to decide what drills they want to attend. They may have volunteered to be reservists but they are still required to follow orders while in the reserves. Maybe because they are pilots/officers they can voluntarily resign from the reserves.


Morat20 t1_jb22hsd wrote

Israeli practices universal conscription, so everyone serves.

With...some exceptions. Obviously they don't allow Arab citizens who are Christian or Muslim, but there is also a long-standing religious exemption that heavily favors the ultra-orthodox sects. I understand they've been trying to repeal that for like two decades (with the last attempt I heard of struck down by the courts).

So in practice the military service isn't quite that universal.

The military, in practice, is the civilian populace between certain ages PLUS career military of all ages MINUS any non-Jewish Arab citizens, MINUS some chunk of the more right-wing and ultra-othrodox sects.

Which is a bit of a different kettle of fish than, say, a purely professional military like the US uses.


TheInsaneC t1_jb25577 wrote

>Obviously they don't allow Arab citizens who are Christian or Muslim

They can volunteer. But why would they?


onecrazyguy1 t1_jb2kqla wrote

Because there are many Arabs in Israel who are proud Israeli citizens. Among Arabs in Israel, feelings are very diverse, some want to be "Palestinian," some don't identify with that at all and want to be "Arab Israeli."


Blofish1 t1_jb47sj4 wrote

In some communities, a military career is also a good way to get ahead economically


nygaff t1_jb2eaxb wrote

That's not true at all. The IDF conscription is for all citizens, regardless of their religion. There are even Druze and Bahai who serve.


Morat20 t1_jb2qopz wrote

Go ahead and read what I wrote again.

Note the phrase "MINUS some chunk".

Those exceptions exist -- and more. I didn't list all of them, just a few.

And people use them. Not everyone who qualifies will use one, but plenty do.

Druze, for instance, have a full conscription -- but only men, not women. A number of Yeshiva students utilize an exemption (Torato Umanuto I want to say? Young men in Haredi yeshivas can serve shortened -- 4 month-- service or none at all. And when i say "can" I mean like 99% of them don't serve. Israel has been working on that for awhile to remove the exemption but last I checked it was still there in practice).


ParaBrutus t1_jb25o4q wrote

While Netanyahu is certainly unpopular on Reddit, he just won election in Israel three months ago and these judicial reforms were not a surprise. The military defections/protests are more a symptom of extreme partisan animosity in Israel than a failure of democracy.

Frankly, the reforms Netanyahu is advocating for are pro-majoritarian by allowing the Knesset to override Israel’s supreme court’s rulings by simple majority vote. What benefits Netanyahu now could just as easily be used by more liberal governments to undo these laws with a simple majority after future elections. The ability of legislatures to override court rulings in Europe is the norm and is relatively uncontroversial—the British high court cannot override parliament, and the French code is the supreme law of the land—the courts merely enforce the code as it is written by the legislature.

What Netanyahu is advocating for is not so different from liberal democrats in the US advocating for congress to pack SCOTUS with a simple majority vote—the reason democrats don’t like the current SCOTUS is because its constitutional rulings cannot easily be “overruled” by congress without amending the constitution itself, but the composition of the court can be controlled with simple majority votes for new appointees.


TheInsaneC t1_jb1q1re wrote

That's his problem, the professional military and the high tech entrepreneurs (and everyone else who's keeping this country running) aren't buying his lies about the legal "reform". His power comes from poor uneducated peripherals who he will keep poor and uneducated so they'll keep supporting him, and his partners are settlers and haredim. but these can't run a country by themselves.


SoItWasYouAllAlong t1_jb2z7xm wrote

>His power comes from poor uneducated peripherals

Uhm... Israel being a democratic country, his power comes from the popular majority, no?

I am unfamiliar with the specific situation. So your objections to the government may have solid grounds. However, "we are more educated" and "they don't know what's best for them" are the standard elitist cliches, regularly used in attempt to marginalize the popular majority.


Drakonx1 t1_jb30jfc wrote

The way governing coalitions are formed in the Knesset is wild. Read up on it and you'll wonder how they ever get anything done, but no he and his party didn't get anything close to a popular majority.


arielsosa t1_jb54csn wrote

But we all know ignorance make you more easily manipulable. Having a "popular majority" (which is also not the case in this highly fractured parlamentarian country) does not gives anyone the right to break the 3-powers balance, which is what he is doing. So, using voters' support as a shield from his own legal problems is not democratic at all.

Even if he had +50% of the population on his side (which he doesn't), it would be anti-democratic to diminish the institutions and processes that make democracy possible.


apenature t1_jb0xe66 wrote

Hmm. That's an ethical dilemma for sure.


YaGirlKellie t1_jb108vj wrote

I don't think that Israeli military pilots are all that worried about ethics.


TheInsaneC t1_jb19763 wrote

Not less than most military pilots in the world


TUGrad t1_jb1vfm7 wrote

Netanyahu is trying to head off any future corruption trials against him/his family.


YUKL27 t1_jb1ympd wrote

Can someone TLDR the reforms they are proposing?


cortb t1_jb21mz4 wrote

government seeks changes that include curbs on the Supreme Court, which it accuses of over-reach. Critics worry that Netanyahu - who is on trial on graft charges he denies - wants excessive power over the judiciary.


ParaBrutus t1_jb26s9v wrote

This seems like a relatively fair description:

The biggest items are allowing the Knesset to override supreme court rulings with a bare majority (61/120 votes) and removing the ability of Israel’s Supreme Court to review the “reasonableness” of laws and regulations.


Shturm-7-0 t1_jb3b0nn wrote

So TLDR he's trying to make it so that he can get the Knesset to get him off the hook for corruption charges?


EagleRise t1_jb59oe1 wrote

Basically. The Israeli system requires that a government will have a simple majority to assume power after an election. So by giving the Kneset the ability to ignore the supreme court with a simple majority basically strips the court of its power.

He's also pushing for politicians to have majority power in the selection of judges, right now they do not have large influence on the process.

He's also trying to make the process by which the supreme court can bring legislation to question harder, by requiring a majority of 12 out of 15 judges to initiate.

In some ways it brings the system somewhere closer to the usa system, but the big difference is that the ruling government always has majority of the house in Israel.


ParaBrutus t1_jb6apeg wrote

To be fair, the legislature can override the Supreme Court in every parliamentary system; if there’s no constitution preserving power for the Supreme Court (like in the US) then legislatures can always restrict the courts’ powers. For example, nothing is stopping Britain’s parliament from dissolving their supreme court, and unlike Israel the British high court has no power to overrule parliamentary legislation for any reason.

What makes the US system unique is that it is uniquely counter-majoritarian. The constitution giving SCOTUS its status as a co-equal branch of government cannot be amended unless 2/3 of congress (or 2/3s of states) propose an amendment, and then 3/4ths of all 50 state legislatures ratify it. That means theoretically 90% of the population could support abolishing or reforming the Supreme Court and if even just 13 of the smallest-population states oppose ratification then nothing happens.


Stepwriterun777 t1_jb3b75b wrote

How does Netanyahu keep getting elected?


sherm39 t1_jb2nhwg wrote

They'll be back soon protecting their country's right to Apartheid.


Mythosaurus t1_jb9ou3x wrote

Lot of progressive media have consistently pointed out that the lessons learned subjugating Palestinians are slowly being applied to Israelis.

Israel’s institutions and politicians have gotten good at authoritarianism against one group, and now that tool is just one more to be used domestically


aRawPancake t1_jb1dvsd wrote

The world needs their support


toyoung t1_jb1b77y wrote

Interesting, those are called drills.