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hamsterfolly t1_jd6f8qz wrote

From the article:

The Justice Department has convinced a federal judge that former President Donald Trump used one of his defense attorneys in furtherance of a crime or fraud related to the existence of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, sources familiar with the matter told CNN.

The finding – part of a major ruling Friday from Judge Beryl Howell of the DC District Court – makes clear for the first time that the Justice Department is arguing it has evidence that Trump may have committed a crime. And Howell ruled that prosecutors met the burden to overcome Trump’s right to shield discussions with his lawyers normally protected under attorney-client privilege.

The evidence would likely be significant in the obstruction probe being pursued by special counsel Jack Smith’s team. It also underscores how critical the testimony of Trump’s defense lawyers would be in the federal grand jury investigation.


Projectrage t1_jd6liv4 wrote

I believe he will skate, but he’s screwed in Georgia state.

Please know we don’t want to martyr him, FYI Hitler went to prison and rose to power.

History doesn’t repeat, but rhymes pretty fucken well.


[deleted] t1_jd6vxy9 wrote



zrleonard187 t1_jd7cp6z wrote

Also hitler was mid 30's when he went to jail. Trump is old.


nagrom7 t1_jd8bzbo wrote

Hitler also only ended up going to prison for a few months, which was a total slap on the wrists for staging an attempted coup.


AfraidStill2348 t1_jd9kka5 wrote

But he's going to live to be 200 years old...


Four_in_binary t1_jd9vx8o wrote

Why DO the complete and utter assholes live so long?


Aloysius_Chinigan t1_jddrei6 wrote

No guilt and no shame,. most likely. They've got no trouble sleeping soundly at night, which does a lot in the stress department.


coconutfun t1_jd7f0g1 wrote

I don't think you have to worry about Trump writing in jail.


phabphour20 t1_jd7jp8j wrote

What does a guy who doesn't read do in prison?


poorbeans t1_jd8aj7p wrote

You could have stopped at "I don't think you have to worry about Trump writing" even if he has crayons.


olivicmic t1_jd90apb wrote

Didn't his previous book/s use ghostwriters? Achieving fascism through contractors would be very American.


Burnbrook t1_jd7dndl wrote

Hitler wasn't in his 70's when he was arrested.


Chadmartigan t1_jd9p7g4 wrote

Yeah, for that reason I'm doubtful that Trump will actually see the inside of a prison cell. Even a straightforward case like the Stormy Daniels thing could be stretched out to two years pretty easily. Trump is 76 (77 in a few months), and nature abhors 300-pound septuagenarians.

That said, it's enough for me that he spends the rest of his life dodging process servers and sitting in courtrooms/lawyers' offices, burning his supporters' money all the while. At this point, any sentence would be a pittance compared to the harm he has caused. So at this point, I just want the process to be as personally miserable as possible while causing the maximum amount of damage to his party and his base.


nola_throwaway53826 t1_jd8i6p4 wrote

He may not be screwed in Georgia. The state is working on a law, Georgia House Bill 231, to remove prosecutors and district attorneys from their posts.

Copied from CNN: House Bill 231 would create the "Prosecuting Attorneys Oversight Commission, which shall have the power to discipline, remove, and cause involuntary retirement of appointed or elected district attorneys or solicitors-general."

So Trump may skate charges in Georgia once this becomes law and they remove the prosecutor.


Projectrage t1_jd8kryk wrote

We need oversight, whatever politics you have…people need to be informed of this bad bill.


BadMedAdvice t1_jda12vh wrote

An unelected office with the ability to remove elected officers sounds like a generally bad idea.


KickupKirby t1_jd7dze2 wrote

Okay, no martyring, got it. But how about tar and feathering?


blackbeautybyseven t1_jd86ygs wrote

Hitler was a lot younger and a lot more intelligent.


RollerDude347 t1_jd99etx wrote

Hitler wasn't really that smart. He had a few smart people around him but in the end he mostly chose crazy, yes-men to listen to. I mean think about his strategy going into the war. It was basically just... hit them really fast before they can react. "They" being most of the other world powers all at once. He started losing as soon as the opposition forces got their feet under themselves.


1d0m1n4t3 t1_jd88zhz wrote

My two cents that isn't even worth that much. He will get inedited but it will take years to wrap up. In the mean time the GOP will shelf him for 2024, then Trump will run independently and split the Republican's vote between him and the GOPs candidate, thus allowing the Dems to put in who ever they want.


BadMedAdvice t1_jda1luv wrote

Counting on the republicans to screw themselves is how trump got in office in the first place. They will absolutely rally around whoever wins the primary. They do not care about choosing the best candidate, or any other silly concepts like competence. Only about doing whatever it takes to hurt you.


1d0m1n4t3 t1_jda2dhg wrote

I mean I'm not counting on it by any means just my thoughts on what will happen. Either way we all need to vote, ideally for the Dems..


dogsent t1_jd8mfti wrote

Trump abused Michael Cohen and we see how that turned out, so far. If Trump’s lawyers turn on him in the documents case that could be the testimony that convicts Trump on those charges.


babysinblackandImblu t1_jd7fdoy wrote

This is obstruction and it’s a 20 year charge. This is extremely relevant. It takes away the attorney client privilege.


RegattaJoe t1_jd7uk1z wrote

Huge leverage to make him flip hard.


starrpamph t1_jd8dugf wrote

I am assuming trump can still get hard. He has the best penis. “Nobody has ever - look let’s just say, ok, let’s just, imagine how hard”


Lord_Sports t1_jd6finb wrote

Dude is guilty as hell. Lock him up already so we can continue without his Cult behaviors. He’s a Trader of the worst kind and if this was anyone else they would be in jail 10 times over already. Dam there’s enough proof to lock him up for good and I bet he won’t do a single day in jail. Sad really but I’m done hearing about this loser and his cult followers.


Hopeful_Hamster21 t1_jd6hn6h wrote

A Trader? Like the Day kind? Or the Joe kind? /s


onetwentyeight t1_jd6n18u wrote

He's a Ferengi


BrillWolf t1_jd8hamx wrote

That's doing the Ferengi a disservice. I'd say he's more a shitty version of the Changelings running The Dominion.


onetwentyeight t1_jd8ii1l wrote

Explains the droopy-goopy attempt at looking human.


BrillWolf t1_jd8irqa wrote

Could he possibly be one of those green army men that went through the microwave and has gained semi-sentience?


SOUTHPAWMIKE t1_jd8z35n wrote

Wonder if that goes for Giuliani, too. We all thought that was sweat and hair dye, but maybe he was having issues maintaining human form.


bluemitersaw t1_jd87yhu wrote

Don't be ridiculous. The Ferengi actually believe in something.


Girth_rulez t1_jd7dyev wrote

He is a trader of his dignity for sums of cash and the attention of low people.


babysinblackandImblu t1_jd7fp5s wrote

Speaking about Trader Joe’s. Avoid any frozen strawberries from there because they’ve been recalled.


bejammin075 t1_jd7hhng wrote

My F5 finger will get a workout this week for sure. I've kept my expectations for justice very low, especially since Mueller wimped out. But perhaps, finally, this time, the walls are closing in on this guy. Rational me says to still keep expectations low but emotional me can't help but be excited there might finally be some justice.


Maplelongjohn t1_jd7jjjz wrote

Mueller handed over facts, it wasn't his job to prosecute.

Barr is the real traitor here....let's not forget that.



DrummerGuy06 t1_jd89cs0 wrote

Mueller was essentially told in the beginning he wasn't allowed to find Trump "guilty," so all he could say is "he's definitely NOT innocent; quite the opposite."

He won't ever see jail time because we're too feckless and cowardly to actually put a treasonous former President in jail for actually inciting an insurrection. They'll at-most sink his Presidential campaign and basically make him sign something that says he'll never run for office again if he wants to remain solvent.


billpalto t1_jd7xail wrote

The evidence in this case is overwhelming. If any one of us had even one Top Secret/SCI document, we'd be in jail already.

Trump had dozens of them. When asked to give them back, he said they were his. When subpoena'ed, he gave some back and tried to hide the rest. He and his lawyers lied and claimed they gave them all back.

Then the FBI raided and found a bunch more. And video shows Trump was moving them around to try to hide them, even after that.


N8CCRG t1_jd7ksdb wrote

The original ABC article has more details.

>Prosecutors in the special counsel's office have presented compelling preliminary evidence that former President Donald Trump knowingly and deliberately misled his own attorneys about his retention of classified materials after leaving office, a former top federal judge wrote Friday in a sealed filing, according to sources who described its contents to ABC News.

>U.S. Judge Beryl Howell, who on Friday stepped down as the D.C. district court's chief judge, wrote last week that prosecutors in special counsel Jack Smith's office had made a "prima facie showing that the former president had committed criminal violations," according to the sources, and that attorney-client privileges invoked by two of his lawyers could therefore be pierced.

>In her sealed filing, Howell ordered that Evan Corcoran, an attorney for Trump, should comply with a grand jury subpoena for testimony on six separate lines of inquiry over which he had previously asserted attorney-client privilege.

>Sources added that Howell also ordered Corcoran to hand over a number of records tied to what Howell described as Trump's alleged "criminal scheme," echoing prosecutors. Those records include handwritten notes, invoices, and transcriptions of personal audio recordings.

I have a feeling people are going to be unearthing revelations about Trump's corruption and crimes for decades after he's gone.


Darkframemaster43 t1_jd7ohok wrote

The ABC article really is much better than the CNN one. It has actual quotes from the sealed order and goes into more details about the actual process, beyond what you're highlighting. The only thing that seems to really be missing from both is what the actual evidence is, as opposed to a description, which is bizarre if you're going to go so far as to make direct quotes of the order.

My guess on the evidence based on what's been in the news is a narrative that Trump was always aware that he had classified information since I believe the SC heard testimony that Trump oversaw the packing process of his documents. That or someone who did pack the documents said they knew they packed classified documents and told Trump as such.


Sunnydaysahead17 t1_jd9aqm4 wrote

I don’t necessarily feel that a description of the actual evidence is missing, I doubt they have access to that information at this time. It will be fun to watch it all come out though!


[deleted] t1_jd6ecve wrote



Picture-unrelated OP t1_jd7642e wrote

I’m going to need some kind of infographic to help me keep track of it all. Getting difficult to keep it all straight


jeremyjack3333 t1_jd96ya7 wrote

Just watch AP for the stories as they come out, they usually have an overarching rundown and they also don't editorialize much if at all.

AP is non-profit, consistently ranks the best in media bias rankings year after year, and has been around for almost 200 years.


SkullLeader t1_jd8bzqx wrote

We're talking about an obese, out of shape 76-year old man who can barely walk down a ramp unassisted and who's diet consists mainly of diet coke and McDonalds. At this rate, the guy could easily pass away before the first trial is even scheduled. Prosecutors seem content to take their sweet, sweet time. If this guy dies before seeing the inside of a jail cell, it will be a massive catastrophe that will demonstrate that someone like him can escape accountability for all his crimes, and will embolden all the would-be Trump 2.0's that are out there waiting in the wings.


BadMedAdvice t1_jda2ljc wrote

And the 2.0s will be right to think so. That he's gone so long without consequences is evidence that the system is broken. That there's so many that still support trump shows that it may not be possible or worth fixing.


DasKleineFerkell t1_jd7ut8h wrote

Somebody, ease, finally have the balls to file charges on any of the dozens of crimes that fucking idiot has committed


billpalto t1_jd84yrc wrote

We have to assume that Trump shared the information with the Russians. We aren't going to hear about how much damage that does to national security though, because they won't want to publicize what secrets were breached.


Sweatytubesock t1_jd81747 wrote

Fraud and crime is like breathing to DJT. Literally his life blood.


Hot-Bint t1_jd6if58 wrote

Is Corcoran the lawyer or Christina Bobb?


Bernies_left_mitten t1_jd6ofys wrote

Corcoran. It's in the article.


Hot-Bint t1_jd6p91t wrote

It wasn’t immediately clear, or I have reading comprehension problems tonight. Thanks :)


Bernies_left_mitten t1_jd6q66x wrote

No worries! Other articles/sources indicate that the filing specifically states that Trump deliberately deceived the lawyers. Not quite sure if that means Corcoran is out of the hot seat or not, though.

Will be very interested to see what evidence they have to get this ruling, and what further evidence it yields. And/or lawyer's future testimonies.


Hot-Bint t1_jd6qrnw wrote

Yes (new evidence for ruling)! Why I said Christina Bobb as well, didn’t she sign off on the affidavit that all boxes had been accounted for in a search she didn’t oversee to the DOJ? What happened with that


Bernies_left_mitten t1_jd96n41 wrote

I think I recall that reports said she did, but I don't know for sure that it was her specifically (vs just "Trump's lawyer") and individually. Haven't heard anything about her in a while now, actually.


Dvusmnd t1_jd8mf78 wrote

Bobb is on the hook for this too. She signed the affidavit stating there was no TS/SCI docs at MAL, but weeks later, Bickety-Bam if there weren’t in fact TS/SCI docs at MAL to the surprise of no one.


Berova t1_jd6iwe4 wrote

That noose sure getting tighter and tighter with each passing week.


Jim_from_GA t1_jd7ffp4 wrote

Pretty soon it is going to get so tight it will pass straight through his neck and he can walk away scot free.

They called Reagan the Teflon Man, but he had nothing on Trump. A pure rooky by comparison.


NerdyV1xen t1_jd86fu6 wrote

This shit is ridiculous. Just arrest him already, how much more evidence do they need???


justforthearticles20 t1_jd8rbzw wrote

All of Trump's attorneys are over their heads in Crime/Fraud and have been since Fred was in charge. That includes every lawyer that worked for him when he was President*.


black_flag_4ever t1_jd7uogx wrote

The guy has gone unpunished for so long he thought he could do anything.


AntifaDoesntExist t1_jd85bu7 wrote

hasn't been shown that he can't yet. Don't jump the gun here, he may still get away with everything.


TirayShell t1_jd9i18x wrote

I get the feeling that once one indictment / arraignment goes down, there will be a lot to follow especially once folks understand that the fascist militia is not going to burn cities down to rescue this guy.


Tinker107 t1_jd7rwra wrote

A crooked orange douchebag AND a crooked lawyer?

We’re gonna need a MUCH bigger corn popper.


Speedly t1_jd7xr0b wrote

Did the Justice Department rep just hand the judge a piece of paper that said, "of course he did?"

I feel like "convinces" is too strong a word for this. It's like telling someone that fire is hot, and then claiming that you "convinced" them of it.


SkullLeader t1_jd89iso wrote

Call it what you will, but prosecutors apparently gave the judge sufficient evidence to make him rule that the crime-fraud exception to attorney/client privilege should apply in this instance. That normally requires something more than just the prosecutor's say-so, and most judges (who are themselves attorneys, after all) pretty much consider the privilege to be close to sacrosanct - so setting it aside is not something they normally take lightly.


Colonel_Angus_ t1_jd841ur wrote

At this point I'm thinking DJTb will be the first President presiding from a prison cell


willit1016 t1_jd8s4of wrote

maybe because they are all criminals everyone.


Yusbhere t1_jd85fvv wrote

That’s a great step forward, but at this pace this entire trump trash experience will be swept under the rug where American justice is for sale to all that can afford it. I’m hopeful a take down of this mobster trump will be in short order now, much of the public is losing confidence in our justice system and win at any cost even if you have to lie type attorneys.