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[deleted] t1_jcllgs3 wrote



LoremasterSTL t1_jcltbwy wrote

I grew up not far from Times Beach, MO, which no longer exists due to dioxin contamination. Wikipedia

Dixoin contamination will likely result in a generation-long evacuation.

TL;DR The owner of a small waste oil company was contracted to oil down dirt roads, and he used oil from a contaminated landfills (read: illegally dumped hazmat) on all the roads in town in 1972. The first news of possible contamination came from leaked EPA documents in 1982. The samples were taken the day before a historic flood (!) and came back with high concentration. Times Beach was disincorporated in 1985 and later became a site for an incinerator for other dioxin-contaminated materials.

Edit: Since then, there has been controversy about evidence of any adverse consequences from low-level dioxin exposure. See the same link.


leo_aureus t1_jcmkwh3 wrote

Don’t worry he and his descendants became independently wealthy as a result of those contracts, let’s not go after the little guy haha!

So disgusting


BlueJDMSW20 t1_jcob5ov wrote

Im 6 miles up the road from Time's Beach. Just a park next to a river now.

My knowledge of East ] Palestine is thryd been voting in corporate tax cuts and deregulation on labor/environmental practices for decades, it's not like this was something they didnt know or expect would happen. Hell, they seem more pissed at Buttigieg and Biden's EPA, than even Norfolk Southern and their ceo.


5AlarmFirefly t1_jcvv8l9 wrote

From the article it sounds like the EPA was in favour of lowering the threshold levels for federal clean-up but the Obama administration nixed it.


AJ_De_Leon t1_jcmbxvx wrote

Is there a danger for people over 200 miles outside East Palestine? I’m concerned the contaminated livestock/crops will still be sold to food markets near and far


Ok_Improvement_5897 t1_jcms7o5 wrote

As someone in Easternish PA who's been out of the country for this whole mess and about to return in a couple weeks.....seconded lol. Could it have contaminated the local waterways?


DonsDiaperChanger t1_jcmy0im wrote

if it did... they don't want you to know. You might sue, that threatens their profits, just like paying for cleanup is bad for profits.


Odie_Odie t1_jcox949 wrote

I think this is in the Ohio River watershed and you should be fine in E PA.


Ok_Improvement_5897 t1_jcp03by wrote

Thankyou - sympathies to the people who are not....fucking awful. Hate that our regions have become an absolute toxic heap because of incidents like this over the years - as if PA and OH don't already have some of the highest incidences of cancer.


Scribe625 t1_jcpu3d5 wrote

I'm in Western PA and the news here has said they've been doing tests to make sure everything is safe and the local governments are trying to make sure areas in Western PA that were close but not in the evacuation zone aren't forgotten by Norfolk Southern.

I know people with farms in Beaver County, PA have been concerned about whether their crops, livestock, or water could be contaminated but no one so far has found anything but the air being contaminated during the idiotic controlled burn. I'm hoping that because our part of the Ohio River is upstream from the derailment the contamination won't spread to the many rivers in the Pittsburgh area, but I'd hope they're being tested regularly since I know some of the Pittsburgh universities like Carnegie Mellon were involved in independent testing in East Palestine.

However, the person I knew who tested the local waterways and raised concerns about what had gone into the Allegheny River when a Norfolk Southern train with hazardous material derailed into the river in 2005 isn't here anymore so I can't find out the real water results this time and know from the 2005 crash not to blindly accept the publicly reported results, so it's kind of anyone's guess right now if it's really safe with the first day of trout starting March 25th for youth and April 1st for everyone else. I'll be erring on the side of caution and skipping fishing this year unless I find someone local who has independently verified the local water and the fish in it aren't contaminated.


femtoinfluencer t1_jcpw5c7 wrote

> no one so far has found anything but the air being contaminated during the idiotic controlled burn.

Dioxin and many of the other combustion products are solids, and will have settled out of the plume and into the soil based on prevailing winds.


Ok_Improvement_5897 t1_jcpxi0o wrote

Thanks for the input - and yeah, good idea on skipping trout season. And yeah history has proven time and time again in this state that every environmental disaster is so much worse than what they initially publicly report - sick of it. Stay safe.


losterweil t1_jcnunuu wrote

I would think directly downstream would be affected for a while. I live 75 miles as the crow flies upstream. Everyone is eerily quiet about it here.


vahntitrio t1_jcnwp3q wrote

Probably not. 1/r² principal probably applies. So levels will drop off very quickly with increasing distance. I couldn't find the distance they measured high levels at, but if they are only at ground zero the contamination is unlikely to spread more than a mile at harmful levels.


Gorgoth24 t1_jcot10z wrote

Inverse square doesn't work well for most ground contaminants. Rainfall tends to collect the contaminant back into streams and rivers then transport it downstream where concentration is based on different math. Initial concentration * e ^ (-1 * constant * time) where the constant varies per material is how it's typically simplified for point discharge. There are a variety of factors in a material that was concentrated, released in various forms, re-concentrated as runoff, then transported downstream as it settles.

My understanding is that decent modeling software exists but it takes time and money to get decent environmental engineers to do an analysis.


losterweil t1_jcqgkvw wrote

After contributing to this thread I went on a little research project… what I concluded is lawyers are only collecting people from a 30 mile radius. That’s about it. There is diddly squat besides that.


Gorgoth24 t1_jcqhz16 wrote

Expected profitability for a lawsuit probably follows inverse square math


losterweil t1_jcstesw wrote

You’re on the scent. I also have read a source(I don’t remember) which said contaminates most likely blew over 200 hundred miles.


iBlag t1_jcofx0o wrote

The 1/r^2 probably doesn’t apply due to many assumptions that don’t hold in this case.


thisismycalculator t1_jcpo0vo wrote

I’m a petroleum engineer and I’ve worked in oil and gas my entire career. I have seen some very sketchy environmental issues over the years. When I heard that they popped open those tank cars and lit them on fire I thought - “Holy shit, I would go to prison for that.” I can’t believe that that was considered the “best” option regardless of cost.

I can’t believe that the management team made that decision without trying anything else first. I can’t believe that every oil and gas company I have ever worked for (public and private, large and small) was more environmentally conscious than one of the largest publicly traded railroads in the country.


Cavaquillo t1_jcpc712 wrote

This is what we did to Vietnam. Both sides were hit with it because they were grasping for their only means of gaining any upper hand. Stupid fucking wars.

There was more than just agent orange, too. That one was just most effective at killing the foliage, killing people and causing birth defects and cancers for generations was a feature for all of the agents produced.


TarCalion313 t1_jcl70wa wrote

Ah, must be fake news... The company which let the train derail in the first place said everything is fine!

(/s, just in case, hope it's obvious enough...)


MalcolmLinair t1_jclfme2 wrote

And the EPA, which clearly isn't in the pocket of big business and can be trusted to protect the public's interest!

(/s, to the power of infinity)


KarlWeathers t1_jclr8gz wrote

The EPA isn't doing any current testing, they ordered Norfolk Southern to conduct testing. Norfolk Southern hired CTEH, to conduct this testing. CTEH is best known for the unaccountable testing they provided for during the Deepwater Horizon fiasco. Good thing regulators allow those responsible for these completely preventable tragedies to decide which corporate lapdog they want to determine the impacts of their failures. ^^/s


BowzersMom t1_jcltdcx wrote

This particular report was commissioned by the state of Indiana in account of some of the contaminated soil from EP being disposed of there. However, it was only two samples of imprecise origin—location, depth unclear, and may have been diluted with other dirt.

Further testing is called for.


leo_aureus t1_jcml1o7 wrote

Indiana, who on another thread in this sub, sells data from their own BMV


Areshian t1_jcngr9u wrote

It seems everything is going according to plan


pegothejerk t1_jclbl9h wrote

::fake sips water from the tap::


008Zulu t1_jclue2a wrote

The CEO should eat the dirt to prove it's safe.


Dieter_Knutsen t1_jcm88bs wrote

I have a better idea. Force him to eat the "safe" levels of dioxin in his food and water for the rest of his life. It's fine, right?


Raspberries-Are-Evil t1_jcm7j3z wrote

The CEO should be arrested and put on trial for the amount of destruction he caused by cutting corners on safety to make more profit.

The company should be given the corporate death penalty and liquidated. The money should be put into a trust for all the future cancer treatment needed by the people.

There is a difference between an accident and criminal negligence. If the company can show they exceeded the regulations for safety and this was a fluke accident, that's one thing, but these mother fuckers gave MILLIONS to Republicans and they returned the favor in 2018 by removing safety regulations for them.


Otto-Korrect t1_jcm5yft wrote

Even better, bury him under 6 feet of it and a demonstration of corporate responsibility.


Otto-Korrect t1_jcm5jhk wrote

And the dioxin in the soil in that area is totally natural. It's been there for thousands of years! Very safe, too.


TarCalion313 t1_jcnn41g wrote

Yet it would be better if they just use something different for a bit of change and not dioxin again...

looking over at Dow Chemicals


[deleted] t1_jclsf03 wrote

Just sitting 1.15 hour away from me in Indiana. Freaks me out.


blumpkinmania t1_jcmbbqx wrote

Never really understood why Indiana and Ohio hitched their wagons to the south.


TabletopMarvel t1_jcmm9i0 wrote

Because they were racists?

For some reason people think this stuff is some mystery. They just hate black people and then realized they can take other people's money by convincing them to also hate black people. So the pyramid scheme spreads.

There's not more to this stuff.


blumpkinmania t1_jcmnzmj wrote

Well, yes. But you’d think there are enough large cities in those states to keep them purple at least. But, no, they’re hard into the fascism.


GoochMasterFlash t1_jcnbxc9 wrote

Their large cities are on the smaller end of the city spectrum and both states have lots of small town populations rather than mostly empty spaces, so it makes sense. Its different than having a situation more like Illinois with a huge city


Sin_of_the_Dark t1_jcmvawk wrote

It's not so much the south that's the crux there - it's any large rural area where you'll generally find that attitude. Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana have a lot of farm land. And oddly enough, there's a percentage of the population that speaks with southern accents... Despite having never left their home town. For generations


leo_aureus t1_jcmt9l9 wrote

Those of us along the lake in Ohio did not


[deleted] t1_jcn3gqp wrote

Correction. I’m in Indiana…but was cornfused. 🌽 I’m 1.15 from New Palestine, not East Palestine.

The whole thing still freaks me out.


[deleted] t1_jcl7208 wrote



sb_747 t1_jcmysu5 wrote

It’s possible and they mention in the article they have no background levels to compare it to.

Mainly because they have no idea where the soil came from other than it was somewhere near the derailment and has since been collected and moved offsite


mces97 t1_jclnuhl wrote

Anyone who has the means to leave really should. Then sue the crap out of Norfolk Southern.


Additional-Force-795 OP t1_jclnzwm wrote

Imagine trying to sell a house in that town


mces97 t1_jclo2ec wrote

That's Norfolk Southern's problem. Or at least it should be.


Additional-Force-795 OP t1_jclqted wrote

It should be and likely will be.

The reality is these people probably have most of their net worth tied to their homes and don’t have the cash to just abandon it… even if only for a short time.


mces97 t1_jclu8a4 wrote

I understand. The government should come down on Northfork Southern quickly, so people can leave. Even if that means being put into hotels.


SoftlySpokenPromises t1_jcof7bo wrote

I honestly feel like Northfolk should be forced to pay the people affected far above going rate for the land and be forced to rehab it. That shit is incredibly unsafe and it could linger for a long time.


5AlarmFirefly t1_jcvw968 wrote

But but! They've already contributed $7.3 million to the people of East Palestine! (ie $1,460 per person). That should be more than enough, right?

/s get fucked Norfolk Southern.


femtoinfluencer t1_jcpwpk6 wrote

> The government should come down on Northfork Southern quickly,

Pretty sure the party in power just busted up a rail worker strike, so no, that won't be happening.


[deleted] t1_jcp03md wrote

I agree with the should, but the will remains to be seen.

We could learn a thing or two from the French. There should be state-wide riots in OH and PA about this.


0pimo t1_jcpcjsd wrote

Norfolk should be forced to buy those mortgages / homes from the owners at above pre-disaster rates.

Hopefully it bankrupts them.


jayfeather31 t1_jcl7x86 wrote

This, sadly, isn't altogether surprising.


DaddyO1701 t1_jclxkny wrote

I hope John Stewart stays healthy so he can shame congress into giving healthcare to the people effected by the derailment and it’s clean up. Otherwise, they are fucked.


nutmeggerking t1_jco6awc wrote

That sounds like a government handout. Not what the people of Ohio vote or want.


murdering_time t1_jcocq3c wrote

Yeah, you obviously don't want the government looking out for it's citizens health. They should just get cancer and deal with it the old fashioned way, by going into massive amounts of debt!


nutmeggerking t1_jcodtx5 wrote

Isn't that what the citizens of Ohio keep insisting on?

I liken it to someone refusing to buy insurance and then pleading for a bailout when disaster strikes.

All those "bad government regulations" were meant to prevent this stuff from happening. You know, the regulations that the right wing has been actively undermining and dismantling for like half a century now. And it's not like it's the politicians that are doing it secretly. It's literally what the average GOP voter wants and calls for: fewer regulations and super low taxes. So here you are: no regulations to stop this from happening, and no welfare safety net to help out if disaster strikes.

They made this bed, it's time they learn from it. Otherwise, these instances will only increase and the red state voters will insist on bailouts while continuing to vote for deregulation. As the conservative adage goes: give a man a fish, yatta yatta, teach a man to appreciate regulations and there might still be healthy fish left for you to catch.


Mydickradiates t1_jcpvwkf wrote

that is not the right thing to do from a public health standpoint. It might be the right thing to do from a political standpoint, provided you are on the opposite side. It is not clear what to do from an ethical standpoint, provided that you are on the opposite side. if you had family that was stuck in the area that shared your political opinion would you feel different

ethics can be funny selfish things


nutmeggerking t1_jcq47o4 wrote

That makes no sense


Mydickradiates t1_jcq4muk wrote

I guess it depends whether I was understanding you right, are you saying don't bother helping these people they made their bed now they can own it and hopefully that induces them to change? Because that would be bad for public health. I feel like if people who thought they shouldn't do anything to help these folks knew some of them they might think different. That's basically what I was saying


nutmeggerking t1_jcq7ufl wrote

>Because that would be bad for public health.

I'd make an argument that it would be in the public interest to not bail them out. If you keep voting with the mentality of "I got mine, fuck you" and insist on voting for deregulations and taxes then stick to your principles and don't go running to the government for a bailout.

Maybe they will learn a lesson about why regulations and government are important the next time they decide to vote.

Something Something personal responsibility, something something rugged individualism, something something boot straps.


Mydickradiates t1_jcqwvm9 wrote

unfortunately it is an ecosystem and what they do affects you, and I would prefer not to wait on them to learn the hard way or otherwise. but you can't just not help them either, so you're stuck with helping them as a humanitarian need, while acknowledging they would have been a drag either way. I have low confidence they will even learn the hard way. But then we will on top of that have a standard of not helping people as a gov't and that's not good either

so your fantasy remains fantasy I guess


ComfortablyNomNom t1_jcpen9i wrote

Its terrifying that we have to rely on Jon Stewart going to congress and shaming people every couple of years so profits are not more important than 100s of lives for like a couple weeks. Fucking awful and sad that he would even need to do it.


girlfreddyf t1_jcm7b6m wrote

Remind me again who said nothing was wrong, it was all safe?


IlIFreneticIlI t1_jcm9bmh wrote

That would have been the testing firm hired by the railroad company that lobbied for more-lax regulations and let their trains rot to the point we had this accident and needed a testing firm, that they hired, to begin with, Alec.


acridian312 t1_jcn40he wrote

i thought all EPA said was safe was the water in the area and everyone was still working on dirt and air


tyj0322 t1_jcm93kp wrote

East Palestine should rename itself “Silicon Valley bank” so it gets some federal help


[deleted] t1_jcmr8wm wrote



tyj0322 t1_jcmvz4f wrote

Force the rail company to pay for the clean up and healthcare of the town.


tyj0322 t1_jcmv7s5 wrote

Regulate or nationalize the rail industry


SWG_138 t1_jclma28 wrote

But the company said everything was okay. Some woke guy wrote this to scare people



femtoinfluencer t1_jcpwvv8 wrote

Pro-Moscow voices tried to steer Ohio train disaster debate 3 hours ago

(No, AP and Reuters aren't any better than legacy media outlets with an explicit flavor)


GorboMcDuggins t1_jcr2ggz wrote

LMAO I'll trust AP and Reuters before I trust random dibshits on reddit. Especially when it comes to Russian disinformation campaigns. Fuck russia


DamonFields t1_jcm1lx1 wrote

Cancer is smiling. It doesn’t like gubmint regulashuns one bit, because freedumb.


sirpoopingpooper t1_jcmzae4 wrote

There's a key piece of info left out of this article (to be fair the article itself cites this problem because no one's released the details!): Where in east Palestine were the samples taken? Since dioxins are combustion byproducts...were they taken at the burn site? Away from the burn site? If they were in the residential area of east Palestine, that's really concerning since those areas are generally upwind of the burn. If that's the case, theres probably a cone of dioxins going outwards from east Palestine in out to the point that all of Pittsburgh should get tested...


NorthernPuppieEater t1_jcn4msn wrote

Exactly, it seems there were only 4 samples collected, we can’t draw any conclusions on 4 samples and hence cannot in any way say if residents are safe or not. A sampling grid needs to be set to cover the entire impacted area, including below the plume trajectory and systematic samples need to be collected to validate the concentrations over the entire are.


sirpoopingpooper t1_jcn51cp wrote

And even moreso - were these 4 samples taken in the burn trenches or miles away or something in between? LOTS more sampling needed!


AWrenchAndTwoNuts t1_jcoqsy7 wrote

To be honest, testing Pittsburgh would likely be a joke.

With the regions history of steel mills and chemical factories as well as the Coke works and Shell plant spewing shit on a daily basis, that testing Will come back positive for something or everything.


vahntitrio t1_jcnwzmk wrote

Exactly. If they are all within 100 feet of the burn area they can probably remove and quarantine the soil.


fifa71086 t1_jcmp5nf wrote

It’s weird because the corporation and governor said it was completely safe.


DaysOfParadise t1_jcmnkbx wrote

The cancer rates everywhere in this aquifer are going to be high for decades


vahntitrio t1_jcnz03g wrote

"High" is going to be a very relative term. It is lower than the old limit but higher than the new limit. The old limits probably had a target of less than 1 in a million chance of causing cancer, the new one is probably no chance of it ever happening.

Considering about 40% of people get cancer in their lifetime, an increase to 40.0001% couldn't really be considered high.


[deleted] t1_jcldqdu wrote



OneRougeRogue t1_jcmrs58 wrote

As a highly paid expert who doesn't live in the area, everything is fine!


Erazerhead-5407 t1_jcmy0mb wrote

And even with all the lying and betrayal by GOP GOVERNOR DeWine and his Republican administration the state will still vote Republican again because they have been conditioned to vote against their interests.


Kingcrackerjap t1_jcn59ie wrote

Dewine already said ohio election results are no different than the suggestion box in the breakroom where you work. Every ohio republican lawmaker refused to enact the will of ohio voters twice. On 4 occasions the state Supreme Court ordered dewine to enact the will of the voters and he said "no."

Dewine found a way to get rid of election results republicans dont like. Expect other red states to do the same.

Florida has done the same in regards to the state voting for fair district maps.


Mythosaurus t1_jcmqu5q wrote

> But while the EPA can claim that the levels are “low” from a legal standpoint, the agency’s own science suggests they are not safe, and dioxin experts who spoke with the Guardian cast doubt on Shore’s and Holcomb’s assessments.

I’m picturing that crappy boss Mr. Incredible had at the insurance company.

“Legally I’m required to say that the soil is fine.”


Vermillion_Crescent t1_jcmy2a5 wrote

Where are the usual pieces of shit defending the incident, telling people the level of contamination is safe, and to trUsT tHe SCIenCE.


wyvernx02 t1_jcnjk41 wrote

>The EPA at the time proposed lowering the cleanup threshold to reflect the science around the highly toxic chemical, but the Obama administration killed the rules, and the higher federal action threshold remains in place.

Thanks, Obama.


I_Heart_Astronomy t1_jcnpnc4 wrote

Norfolk Southern should be required to buy everyone’s homes at fair market value (before the derailment) and then that whole area should be a superfund site.


JC2535 t1_jcr3oql wrote

Norfolk Southern is heading to bankruptcy court.


FaahQbuddy t1_jco11vz wrote

My client with a brain tumor years ago told me about this…they have been poisoning Ohio for years.


WordPhoenix t1_jco4pv8 wrote

Fascinating, horrible, tragic. I'm from NE Ohio, though I don't live there anymore. I've known since I was a kid that all of the pollution HAD to lead to bad consequences. Sad thing is, it's so much worse than we can even know.


sixshooterspagooter t1_jcnoz37 wrote

Is this the safe for Ohio limit or just the national average?


JC2535 t1_jcr3hr2 wrote

“Trust the market. The private sector is way more efficient than government at regulating industry.”

Except for that whole greed thing…


G07V3 t1_jcmyvll wrote

Don’t worry, the governor said the surrounding area is safe.



JC2535 t1_jcr4ovy wrote

Don’t worry, the CEO said his trains are safe.



stvrkillr t1_jcprem5 wrote

Hopefully the “safe limit” of carcinogenic chemicals is zero?? None is how much I would like


Nestvester t1_jcofz9e wrote

Any Canadians here remember the Mississauga Disaster?


BestChard6615 t1_jcpj4km wrote

How could this be the government assured us everything was all right !


KingDorkFTC t1_jcpqfmm wrote

They just keep telling the offenders to test for their mistakes. Why is the EPA leaving it to someone else to test?


kickachicken t1_jcpv8ez wrote

But everything is perfectly safe!!!!! I should move in there too!!!!


JackKovack t1_jco0mad wrote

No shit, It’s now a superfund site.


Niall2022 t1_jcolmag wrote

These people voted Republican. So live with it


_Rootbeard_ t1_jcmsuz5 wrote

Medical industry will make so much money off of this for decades to come


norwegian-ants t1_jcpwy1p wrote

Just remember that the soviet union gave the people that lived and helped to clean up chernobyl, free healthcare for life.

Feel free to fact check,

I learned this from a documentery soo its probably not that accurate.


Earth_1st t1_jcma5sk wrote

Ohio, you've got the rest of the Union To help you along What's going wrong?


IT_Chef t1_jcmph5s wrote

Hey yall, the sky is blue!


ilikefikes42 t1_jcmk3ya wrote

This is gonna collapse Norfolk Southern. This is gonna be REALLY bad for them.


descendingangel87 t1_jcmq5d1 wrote

I doubt it, rail companies have massive fucking pull to the point that it’s unbelievable. Like some have their own railway cops that have all the authority of a regular police force. It’s insane what they get away with compared to other industries.


homogenousmoss t1_jcnc6zg wrote

The Lac-Mégantic rail disaster causing a rail company to go bankrupt, so its possible. On the other it was Canada, they might be somewhat less corrupt.


BabyBatterBaller t1_jcl9vax wrote

B-But the government said it's safe! The government never lies to us.... Right?^^^^/s


kokopilau t1_jclerwk wrote

They better get a control, as the carcinogens may have been there before the accident.