Submitted by Torifyme12 t3_10fnm4t in news
Comments
lollypatrolly t1_j4yhxpq wrote
> but why is Germany demanding a match.
It's cowardice, they're deathly afraid of doing anything without overwhelming political cover. It's much more comfortable to hide behind the skirt of mommy US.
MightyThor211 t1_j50gjhe wrote
Yeah, they are closer to the threat than the US. I would say it's more of a fear thing. I mean, the only things standing between Germany and Russia geographicly is Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus. Plus, add that history that Russia has made it to Berlin before and I can understand some hesitation.
Willygolightly t1_j50itnb wrote
So we could say that Germany is somewhat trying to appease Putin? Sounds familiar….
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MightyThor211 t1_j50oxny wrote
In my completely non expert experience it doesn't seem like they are trying to appease him. The US is ok with throwing war machines at them because to the US, this is a giant dick showing contest to Russia. Germany doesn't want to wave its wurst unless they know they will have someone backing them.
Scagnettie t1_j51wxez wrote
> Germany doesn't want to wave its wurst unless they know they will have someone backing them.
You mean like NATO(which includes America and it's war machine) and the entire European Union? Your point makes no sense at all.
Scagnettie t1_j51wint wrote
Germany is well protected by NATO. If Russia is having this much trouble with Ukraine NATO would bend them over at will. As for your other point that Ukraine is one of the barriers between Germany and Russia it makes no sense for Germany to let Ukraine fall and bring the Russian threat closer.
akaasa001 t1_j522bru wrote
If Germany wasn't part of NATO, then I could definitely see your point. I suspect that this is more political, and perhaps they want something from the US. At this point I think we are all just speculating. It is making Germany look bad nonetheless.
MightyThor211 t1_j52wktm wrote
Oh agreed. As I said, in my completely non expert opinion this is all speculation.
jens-2420 t1_j4z8ei3 wrote
Baah. Should Leopards be delivered, next step will be fighter jets, war ships, … And the complete supply and maintenance line is supposed to be thrown in for free, too.
astro__dev t1_j4zdxzf wrote
Who tf says “baah” are you a sheep
DrKepret t1_j50edt9 wrote
Least patriotic German. Dude’s everywhere on this post; the insecurity is leaking out.
jens-2420 t1_j50fs6t wrote
Ad hominem. MAGA style. Blocked
DrKepret t1_j50ggsj wrote
Ok, still doesn’t change the fact that Germans shouldn’t be blocking those tanks.
jens-2420 t1_j50hkgy wrote
I stop discussing here. USA political opinion - as much as I loved it when living there - is a Calcutta Black Hole since 2016 for me. No way for real arguments any more. Pity.
Torifyme12 OP t1_j4yapxc wrote
No you're right, but don't worry, some Germans will be by to tell you why you're wrong and they're secretly doing more than everyone else put together
JellyBiafra54321 t1_j51z0yy wrote
right? I'm sick of this whole supporting European wars thing while Europeans sit there and complain about the US. Fund this shit by yourselves already.
ApizzaApizza t1_j56eilw wrote
They supported us for 20 years in the Middle East my dude.
JellyBiafra54321 t1_j59zdz7 wrote
... sure
>my dude
dudette
ApizzaApizza t1_j5ckmmo wrote
Dude is genderless in my eyes. I’m a dude, she’s a dude, he’s a dude…we’re all dudes.
Claystead t1_j58916x wrote
Okay, I agreed with the previous person but this is a pretty silly argument. Besides the Germans most of Europe has sent a massive amount of military aid even if they can’t match the quantities the US can provide. The Baltic countries have literally sent like a third of their annual military budget, Denmark is sending almost their entire self propelled artillery park, Norway has sent one quarter of their winter uniforms a fifth of their anti-air systems, Poland and Slovakia have sent huge sections of their armored vehicle parks, including almost all the old Soviet stuff, and the British in addition to sending tanks, artillery and missile systems are training thousands of Ukrainian soldiers on their soil. Even the French are chipping in (even if it seems they do it mostly to do better than the Germans and to keep up with the British). Finland is about to send tanks too, despite not being in NATO. You can see the full list here. In total Europe has contributed well over $100 billion in aid so far, and it is Europe which has committed to funding the brunt of reconstruction after the war, not the US.
jens-2420 t1_j4zoczn wrote
Of course. Only in USA these supports are breaking news at least three times before they come.
DefinitelyNotAliens t1_j518p1c wrote
The US has been propping up the Ukrainian military in foreign aid since before Russia invaded this time. Russia has been involved in a series of pushes and the US was selling older military tech that outstripped Ukrainian resources at a loss prior to this most recent invasion.
The whole Hunter Biden/ impeachment thing? That was over the US aid package to Ukraine. It was 250M in funding for equipment and training. We'd been sending Javelin launchers since before the war started.
We've sent billions in advanced weaponry and medical aid and it has predated the latest Russian invasion. Yes, it takes time to send weaponry over but we've been training Ukrainian forces since before the war started which is one of many reasons they were able to outlast the first two weeks and allow additional aid to arrive. Zelenskyy didn't run and the military held Kyiv. Part of that was they already had a limited number of Javelin launchers and other weaponry to stop armored advances. The stockpile has exploded in the last year, sure.
The US backing of Ukraine isn't new. There's absolutely standing to say we've done quite a bit without actually having soldiers directly engaged.
jens-2420 t1_j4z7cvl wrote
Do not try to begin a competition to create good and bad NATO members.
flourishingpinecone t1_j4yhfzl wrote
you're being a bit naive because the entire world has only sent a fraction of what the US has sent
MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4yitmv wrote
True, but that absolutely shouldn’t be the case. Germany has much more to fear from Russian expansionism in Europe.
flourishingpinecone t1_j4yo1zv wrote
the US spends 3x more on defense than the entire EU combined, they aren't ever gonna be able to match us.
MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4yorvd wrote
Yeah. Trumpists (cough cough) were right about one thing: the US needs to stop being the security guard for Europe on US taxpayers’ dime. It’s been 78 years since the end of WWII, and it’s time for Germany (in particular) to stop free-riding on the US security umbrella.
Torifyme12 OP t1_j4yvuvk wrote
Or at the least if they could stop crapping on us it'd be nice.
jens-2420 t1_j4zerrd wrote
USA is keeping military posts all over the world in its own interests. Bit like the British 150 years ago. Not for „defending freedom and democracy“.
MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4zfjv5 wrote
That fact redounds to Germany’s benefit, as well as to the rest of the west.
It’s not at all like the British because the US doesn’t have colonies. The British were engaging in mercantilism; the US isn’t.
Fuzzy_Accident_5085 t1_j507nec wrote
To prevent dictators getting ahold of nuclear weapons. You want more north koreas? Just letting dictators run loose is how you get more koreas and russias and middle easts. If the US was like the British empire, it’d own all of Europe hand in hand with the Soviet Union AND Britain. Now once again, the US has to step in and play god because germany AND France AND the rest of the EU is repeating itself and letting the rest of the world down by not confronting dictators.
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Sbubbert t1_j53toi7 wrote
People like you are so fucking ignorant. How do you think the whole world would look like right now if the US had the military budget of an average European country? Hint: you wouldn't like it very much.
Krajun t1_j4z71y9 wrote
After all the US has done in the past, I don't think Ukraine is where we should draw the line. The one time we're actually defending democracy instead of installing fascist regimes.
MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4z869o wrote
I fully, 100% agree. Now is not the time. Also, we’d be fools from a cost-benefit standpoint.
eta: Nonetheless, Germany needs to step up.
reddit5674 t1_j4zu28v wrote
Hmmm... It's not like free security?
Its like USA's business model. Somewhat similar to the colony era.
I am not economy or military expert, but I do know there ar benefits from all that military expansion, directly and both indirectly.
Im not saying whether this "business" model is efficient or not, (it is getting slightly less effective currently as I see it) but it is not "wasting tax payers money"
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Venetax t1_j4yvgx1 wrote
That decision would only make the US weak. The US is strong because it intervenes basically everything everywhere and takes the position of the "leader of the free world". If they stop doing that, it would slowly result in the US becoming more insignificant.
MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4ywpym wrote
I wasn’t suggesting that the US withdraw from the world stage.
The US is strong because it’s a vast country comprised of 330 million people spread out over 50 states, a district, and territories, with tremendous natural and human resources. Having Germany pull its weight after outsourcing most of its defense for nearly 8 decades won’t cause the US to crumble.
IAmAPaidActor t1_j586tgv wrote
The US is strong because it wields its power effectively. It puts down its enemies economically, it puts down its threats with overwhelming violence, and it props up allies where needed. This maintains its status, ensures that nobody can act against it except for show, and guarantees further economic prosperity. The US has a strong economy because it maintains a presence with each of its trade partners. Some of that is through treaties with larger allies, some of that is through base agreements with smaller allies, and some of that comes in the form of missile strikes and occupation to remind the less friendly nations why they need to fall in line and keep things amicable.
MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j58ageq wrote
The US is the least trade-dependent member of the G7, by far. Trade is a relatively insignificant part of the US’s wealth. Thus, your statement that the “US has a strong economy because it maintains a presence with each of its trade partners” is flat wrong. The US is strong for the reasons I stated. It’s huge and has tremendous natural and human resources, all governed relatively loosely.
Fiddler_s_green t1_j4zrkx2 wrote
They only said that because the love the psedo-christian-facist state that is Russia. If Ukraine had been attacked by people of a darker completion our fascist party would have given them fucking air craft carrier groups.
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lochlainn t1_j4yny3w wrote
Look at it in terms of GDP. France and Germany are sending embarassingly little compared to places like the UK, Canada, Poland, the former Soviet Baltic states (Estonia gave a whopping 1.1% of their GDP and Latvia 0.93%) a whopping 1.1% of their GDP), or Norway.
For a country that suffered under Russian occupation, they aren't giving like the rest, that's for sure.
The US gave 0.23% of its GDP, comparable to Canada.
Venetax t1_j4yuy6i wrote
>Combining financial assistance, humanitarian aid, and weapon deliveries put together, the German government has sent €5.45 billion directly to Ukraine this year. It’s also channeled a further €7.15 billion to help fund EU initiatives for Ukraine, making for a combined total of €12.6 billion in German support.
Germany overall has sent ~0.3% of its GDP.
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lochlainn t1_j4yn7bt wrote
Even in GDP terms, they're far outclassed by Poland and the UK, it's just embarassingly shitty how little France, and especially Germany, have given, compared to their economic ability.
Fuzzy_Accident_5085 t1_j4zk67r wrote
Germany would rather strip mine coal as the US goes greener, and get one upped by the US in military support as per usual. They won’t be able to afford replacements, unlike the US that spends more on its military a year than Germany makes in its GDP.
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jens-2420 t1_j4z7mcg wrote
They could have given nothing, right? And still be a western country. Germany has to spend another 200 billion this year to compensate for energy prices.
Scagnettie t1_j51vwyx wrote
That's what they get for putting all their eggs in Putin's basket.
Zealousideal_Bid118 t1_j4yl0j6 wrote
Nah you're correct. Its just germans being germans
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jens-2420 t1_j4zbtdn wrote
USA has 800 billion military budget, Germany has 50 billion. You want armaments race again?
akaasa001 t1_j4ziiao wrote
There is no race, the US is superior by far in military, we all know that. My concern is more towards the attitude of Germany rather than comparing defense budgets. Realistically yes the US is able to send more aid, no one in here is failing to acknowledge that. But Germany can still send those tanks without the US sending more aid, that is imo a bit scummy.
jens-2420 t1_j4zjg1x wrote
EU countries are giving substantial financial, civilian and arms support already.
After tanks are delivered, the next debate will be: fighter jets, Long range artillery, war ships. That already started in Divos, too.
Let us be earnest: The only ones who can fulfill these needs are USA and China.
rdxxx t1_j4ycofq wrote
Because they have not been stockpiling tanks or weapons in general, because that's usually what happens when you are not constantly invading some middle eastern country for the past 20 years
Also they probably just really don't want to for whatever reason, they will rather put some additional conditions to drag their feet instead just refusing
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Mr_Metrazol t1_j4yndp1 wrote
The Germans were effectively neutered in '45. Partially by being occupied by the Soviets and the Western Allies, but mostly by having a lot of young men lying dead between Berlin and Moscow.
Modern Germany couldn't lead a Girl Scout Troop across a playground. They're a has-been power like Spain and the Netherlands, whose primary national defense is the United States. What Germany says carries the weight of a pillow.
jens-2420 t1_j4yx2ul wrote
Germany had 4,500 tanks in 1990, with heavy tanks about 2,000. Today there are 220 heavy tanks, half of them defunct. What do you suggest?
TurboSalsa t1_j4yzvv2 wrote
Invest in defense.
The best time to build a modern army was 20 years ago, the second best time is today.
jens-2420 t1_j4z043m wrote
100 billion Euros are there now, in addition to the 50 billion per year for defense. US companies are jus to raising their export prices.
Ordered Chinooks: 3 billion Dollars, suddenly now 6 billion. How come? 😉
TurboSalsa t1_j4z0fil wrote
Ah, of course it's the US' fault!
jens-2420 t1_j4z0nb4 wrote
Not fault. US companies are as greedy as always. That is their business model.
And Americans are very touchy to critics. 😉
TurboSalsa t1_j4z0x95 wrote
Not as touchy as Germans being asked to meet their NATO spending requirements 😉
JellyBiafra54321 t1_j521tj5 wrote
what is your solution?
jens-2420 t1_j53zflz wrote
Buy somewhere else.
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jens-2420 t1_j4zbqcl wrote
What leader of Europe? EU is not an authoritarian state like Russia or USA. Just an economic zone of different countries.
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WanderingPickles t1_j4y3dik wrote
So…. Germany won’t let the owners of equipment they sold send it, but they want the US to directly send it…
Way to go Berlin. It’s spinelessness like that which will preserve democracy and the rule of law.
Haven’t they seen all the other equipment the US has provided? Many many times what Germany has done. Fuck that noise.
Avangelice t1_j4y617x wrote
You give too much credit to the German government who have shut down nuclear plants only to destroy a village that sits on lignite which is the dirtiest form of coal.
Yeah intelligence is the alien to the German government.
Venetax t1_j4yvzif wrote
Our german government is in a horrible state right now, tons of unqualified people on positions that require qualified people in these times. But the issue with the shutdown of the nuclear plants wasn't the german government to be fair. It was a very clear order of the citizens after tons and tons of protests. Well... people are stupid I guess
DodgerGreywing t1_j5183cm wrote
>Well... people are stupid I guess
People fear nuclear power because of a small number of worst cases.
The freak occurrences at Windscale, Chernobyl, Three-Mile Island, and Fukushima occurred over a 60-year span, but are held up as representative of nuclear power.
But no one looks at the lasting damage coal mining has done over the years. The towns where children constantly inhale fly ash, or end up buried under a landslide of coal refuse. Where the mining debris seeps into the water table. Where the miners develop chronic lung diseases.
It was stupid and short-sighted to shut down the nuclear power plants.
Claystead t1_j589dzs wrote
Who fears nuclear power in the 21st century? German environmentalists are wilding, seems they are trapped in the Chernobyl era.
jens-2420 t1_j4z809i wrote
You are clearly uncomfortable with your own life. Do not make that a „German“ thing.
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jens-2420 t1_j4z7szz wrote
Bash. You read right wing news and build up an enemy. Pathetic.
Ynwe t1_j4yyzgh wrote
This article is actually pretty poorly written. It only concerns German stock. Other nations are welcome to send their tanks, but none have applied for an export permit, see comments from Habeck.
Basically every country besides the UK but including the US hs the same position where they are welcoming other nations to send their own tanks.
jens-2420 t1_j4z7y3s wrote
Germany could not send special ammunition to Ukraine as Switzerland did not permit it.
Every arms producer has these contracts.
Material_Strawberry t1_j4yfgoq wrote
The US doesn't allow most up-to-date weapons systems they control to be sold or sent to others without permission either. It's standard.
Germany is it will approve the transfer of Leopards if the US transfers some of its tanks as well.
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AKMarine t1_j4y739z wrote
The Abrams is in a class by itself as a main battle tank.
The M1 MBT is very thirsty — requiring considerable fuel and logistics that the US pocketbook can afford, but not likely a cost-effective tool for Ukraine.
The Abrams also requires much more mechanical and electronic technology repair training and support than any other tank produced today.
flourishingpinecone t1_j4yi2fn wrote
between the leopard, abrams, and challenger 2 you have 3 different engines, one of which is a gas turbine, 2 different types of guns with different ammunition, and all weighing more than anything ukraine has in inventory, which means they will need all new recovery systems as well, not to mention the whole new training of crew and maintenance people. This whole thing with tanks between the UK, Germany and the US seems like a weird pissing match and I really don't understand it. It would probably be cheaper to spool up a factory to produce modernized T-72s than it would be to introduce three new tanks and logistics systems to a country during wartime.
AKMarine t1_j4yjc63 wrote
Agreed. Also, this is a drone war. As soon as a high priority tank is painted, it’s toast.
windmill-tilting t1_j56lktp wrote
No one in Europe wants to be the first major power to throw in against Putin and risk catching a nuke. If the US commits to the effort then Sholz would feel comfortable stepping up. IANAWL.
IrishRage42 t1_j512a9r wrote
We're sending a bunch of Bradley's over. Does that now count even though they aren't MBTs.
HappySkullsplitter t1_j4xyozu wrote
Only if Germany matches the US commitment 1:1
lochlainn t1_j4ymxj8 wrote
The US has 3.5k M1's in long term storage.
Germany can barely keep its own military funded and running and says it won't be able to meet NATO GDP requirements set in 2014 until 2031.
They're bitches who expect everyone else to pony up but won't do it themselves.
Edit: 2006, not 2014.
lollypatrolly t1_j4yopf7 wrote
This isn't about stockpiles or military readiness, it's about political will. Germany is merely being asked to approve Leopard export from allied nations as well as supply a symbolic number of them. In practical terms this is extremely easy to make happen, the only barrier to doing so is cowardice and indecision from German policy makers.
Zestyclose-Basket-88 t1_j518ti1 wrote
In Germanys defense they’re a lot closer to Russia than the U.S. if I was them I’d want to be as far down on Putins shit list as possible
akaasa001 t1_j523eo7 wrote
Except that Germany has the power and protection of NATO. I don't think Germany is worried too much about Russia, but who k ows what rolls around in their heads. You could be right lol
IAmAPaidActor t1_j587ng2 wrote
In Germany’s defense is the United States. Russia wouldn’t make it fifty miles into Poland without being crushed.
Edit: Russia would run out of fuel before they made it to the German border.
jens-2420 t1_j4z899x wrote
Why not think about it? Should some country deliver Leopards, who will have to supply parts, maintenance? KMW, Rheinmetall - so that would force the German government to accept that.
jens-2420 t1_j4yxdby wrote
You are too emotional her, I guess. Couch potato in war topics?
Sending heavy tanks means building up a huge supply and maintenance structure in Ukraine. Even in Germany many of the Leopards are not working for maintenance reasons.
Simple solutions are not always solutions.
BUKKAKALYPSE_NOW t1_j4z9tx1 wrote
And sending multiple types of tanks instead of just one as Scholz proposes will be sure to simplify maintenance and supply lines right?
jens-2420 t1_j4zfbkz wrote
Mr. Scholz did not propose that. His opinion is to send no heavy tanks at all.
sulris t1_j4yx1z4 wrote
Yeah didn’t I read that the military kept asking for no more new tanks, that the military wanted to shift that money into purchasing different systems but that Congress kept mandating the production of new tanks to keep the jobs flowing in their districts. I thought we were swimming in unwanted excess tanks.
jared555 t1_j4z78aa wrote
I thought we mostly weren't providing M1's due to fairly extreme fuel usage and maintenance requirements?
lochlainn t1_j4z92ex wrote
Nope.
The M1 has high fuel requirements, but someone in this thread already already pointed out that there is Soviet era equipment on the field on both sides with comparable requirements.
And the M1 has fairly low maintenance needs, and is extremely field repairable. IIRC, you can swap turrets and engine packages in the field fairly quickly.
Egypt and Saudi Arabia have fielded them for a while now, and Poland has had their training unit running for a bit, and nobody has come up with any maintenance stoppages that require US support to overcome that I've heard of.
jens-2420 t1_j4z82ii wrote
There were no requirements. That is an old Trump fake.
lochlainn t1_j4z9p5z wrote
Trump merely pointed out that the majority NATO was failing to meet them. At the time, only 5 did: the US, UK, Greece, Estonia, and Poland.
As of 2022, 9 of the 30 do. France and Germany, notably, don't as of the beginning of the year.
jens-2420 t1_j4zo496 wrote
Still: There was was no requirement to spend these 2% of GDP, just a perspective. Trump and others made a „contract to pay 2% to the USA“ of that.
AlwaysDeadAlwaysLive t1_j505aud wrote
Yes there is a requirement. All NATO countries agreed in 2006 to the 2% of GDP target.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/02/16/military-spending-by-nato-members
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jens-2420 t1_j505v4t wrote
It was not a pledge, but a vague declaration of intent. Read the following article.
SubtiltyCypress t1_j50g57z wrote
All you do is try to defend Germany doing nothing 🙄
jens-2420 t1_j50h7vo wrote
https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514
Plus several billion in funds, 750,000 Ukrainians fled to Germany, are housed, schooled and funded.
Btw: The population of Germany grew from 82 million to 84.5 million in two years, in spie of declining birth rates.
100 billion Euros extra fund for Bundeswehr, 200 billion for energy prices, after 100 billion for Corona in the last two years.
Federal budget in Germany is half of US military budget. Consider that.
lochlainn t1_j51i0od wrote
This has nothing to do with Ukraine, or energy prices. You aren't the only ones experiencing winter.
This is a treaty you've been in since post WWII. You agreed to the terms in 2006.
Stop whining "we're spent out". Germany is the richest economy in the EU. If Greece and Estonia can do it, if the UK can do it, you can fucking do it, you sad sacks.
Your government let your military go to shit in favor of cowering under the US's shield, and now your coziness with Russia is coming out.
You have no excuses for this. It's not a new requirement, it's not an emergency requirement, you've literally been a deadbeat debtor on this for decades.
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Gowo8989 t1_j4xzctp wrote
Well Germany could at least do SOMETHING!
daverapp t1_j4ygqhn wrote
I'm not gonna say you're wrong but yelling at Germany to do something about those Russians has had mixed results historically
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jens-2420 t1_j4z7nah wrote
They do. You just do not care.
Material_Strawberry t1_j4yf7de wrote
They have. They've been doing a lot.
Zealousideal_Bid118 t1_j4yl60z wrote
Holding their dick in their hands while bowing down to Quatar doesn't really count my dude
Material_Strawberry t1_j4yllg5 wrote
You guessed incorrectly.
Zealousideal_Bid118 t1_j4yxke6 wrote
So, that DOES count?
Material_Strawberry t1_j4z1xii wrote
No. It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about was the point.
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macross1984 t1_j4y0jqg wrote
Germany is becoming pain in the arse to the level same or greater than Turkey.
twistedfork t1_j4ybjsz wrote
Seems pretty clear some "old guard" in the government are compromised by Russia
flourishingpinecone t1_j4y382k wrote
sending abrams, leopards and challengers all seems like a waste of shipping space and money considering the different logistic requirements of these systems
lollypatrolly t1_j4yi94c wrote
Germany is looking for an excuse to not send anything, or political cover to send it, so this doesn't matter. The US sending a single symbolic Abrams would still force Germany to deliver on their (implied) promise.
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jayfeather31 t1_j4xx95f wrote
Sounds like a good deal to me. Send the tanks and force the damn issue.
boulevardpaleale t1_j4yzbv0 wrote
curious…. how many patriot missile batteries did germany send vs how many the us sent?
either help, or don’t. just don’t make ‘tit for tat’ excuses for not helping.
[deleted] t1_j501qsu wrote
What a bunch of panzeies
onebulled t1_j504mih wrote
This is misleading. Scholz talked about only sending tanks from Germany if the US would also send tanks.
But the German government has signaled that they would allow export of leos from Poland etc. but that they havent recieved any offical request yet
Jman50k t1_j4z5284 wrote
Last time german armor made it to eastern Europe it was a whole thing.
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Snaz5 t1_j51amba wrote
Do we still have any old M60’s kickin around?
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J-Laguerre t1_j4xw8i0 wrote
So, what they are saying is, we don't really want Ukraine to win... EU in tow with the US incapable of a défense policy of their own. What is the point of this shit show?
DasKleineFerkell t1_j4yxnrp wrote
United front
J-Laguerre t1_j4yxrp6 wrote
With Russia
[deleted] t1_j4yt9uc wrote
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jazzersongoldberg t1_j4yrpj6 wrote
People keep posting the same garbage, just wait until tomorrow, Jesus Christ.
Scagnettie t1_j51vgh5 wrote
For what? Germany to come up with another excuse? If they weren't shamed into helping they'd still have only sent those 5000 helmets which was going to be their entire military aid package in the beginning.
russiandobby t1_j4yz8ob wrote
Dont we give them money for defense? Pretty sure we already paid for those tanks.
screamlikeapanther t1_j50p6n4 wrote
Uh, oh. Trouble in NATO paradise?
jens-2420 t1_j4zew55 wrote
Some compare relatively to GDP, some to population: as always, puck what serves your point of view. That is for what these numbers are made.
oceanicfeels t1_j4ydszu wrote
...and Germany was all like, "No, you first," and the US was like, "Make me."
Scagnettie t1_j51vlms wrote
I guess all the billions the US has already sent doesn't count?
akaasa001 t1_j4yajlb wrote
So maybe I am missing something but why is Germany demanding a match. Germany has supplied barely a fraction of military aid compared to the US. Really seems like Germany needs to step it up a bit on the support...Or am I just naive?