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Nervous_Promotion819 t1_j5q3w04 wrote

Reply to comment by johndoe73684168 in Germany Agrees to Send Leopard 2A6s to Ukraine by For_All_Humanity

That most likely won't happen because I believe these are Leopard 2 A7s. Also, that would shrink Germany's tank arsenal even further, and this company (14 Tanks) that is now being sent is all that can be spared

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johndoe73684168 t1_j5q60pq wrote

The Dutch can give their 18 A6 tanks no problem, but the announcement today was only that the government is considering it.

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Nervous_Promotion819 t1_j5qaakk wrote

But they don't own them. Dutch soldiers are stationed in a German-Dutch corps. If the Netherlands would buy these, Germany would miss them in this corps

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johndoe73684168 t1_j5qamof wrote

Yes, I said they are leased tanks. I'll just assume Germany doesn't care since they are not using those tanks anyway.

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Nervous_Promotion819 t1_j5qc04b wrote

No, they use these tanks because they are based in the I. German-Dutch Corps, which is subordinate to the 1. Panzer Division. The corps is an integral part of the German army

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johndoe73684168 t1_j5qd9al wrote

Ok you know more about it, I only read the article where pm Rutte said because we lease them, we can buy them also and then give it to Ukraine. Which seems normal for a lease agreement.

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420trashcan t1_j5rmguw wrote

What is Germany going to need tanks for during the time it will take to build more?

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malphonso t1_j5tt5gi wrote

You never know what's going to happen. Russia could decide to go all in along with allies.

Sure, they'd be fought back, but Germany might still need the tanks to do that with.

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420trashcan t1_j5ttt3c wrote

Russia has to go through Poland first, if you recall.

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malphonso t1_j5tuxe9 wrote

And I'm sure Poland would appreciate Germany having tanks in reserve and ready to offer help if it's needed.

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AdminsAreLazyID10TS t1_j5rl8ic wrote

One might ask what use a tank is to a country that will not and can not use it.

Even if NATO gets involved, guess what, the material is already in combat against the enemy.

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Nervous_Promotion819 t1_j5t1s3h wrote

A tank company (14 tanks) means about 250 soldiers who will no longer have their main weapon system. It takes years to fill those gaps, and by then these soldiers have forgotten a lot because they haven't been able to practice. One has to remember that even if Ukraine is completely pushing Russia out of its territories, it does not mean that Russia is no longer a threat in the future.

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AdminsAreLazyID10TS t1_j5vh5af wrote

You're not wrong, though fortunately for them they have an ally with 6,000 functional tanks to their 300 if they need training.

Or maybe Germany should lease them some crews too to have a tank corps with some real experience.

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YlangScent t1_j5t2ef5 wrote

True, but that's a bit of a simplistic argument to make.

The truth of the matter is that Ukraine is not part of NATO or any formal alliance to begin with. In fact they've been on the Russian 'side' for most of modern history and are the most corrupt nation in Europe after Russia.

It is currently unthinkable that Ukraine becomes pro Russian again in the near future, but not unthinkable that corruption will lead material into the wrong hands. There's also a somewhat non negligible chance that Ukraine becomes neutralized and loses their arsenal to Russia.

>One might ask what use a tank is to a country that will not and can not use it.

The same use as nuclear weapons: deterrent. If Ukraine still had theirs, there would have never been an invasion. Also the world is unpredictable, you never know what you need your tanks for. Could be as simple as training or as serious as defending your own country rather than a country you have sympathy, but no treaties with.

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AdminsAreLazyID10TS t1_j5vgnkk wrote

Germany isn't deterring anyone with their 300 obsolete tanks. Who's going to invade them anyways? Poland? Denmark? Hungary, lmao? Not happening.

That's the real deal with the "modern" tank designs, btw, they're all forty years old now and all vulnerable to modern AT.

There's an actual modern Abrams design on the way (and the rebirth of light tank philosophy) that aims to have countermeasures but the real thing is this Ukraine war will be the last chance obsolete, fifty or forty year old designs like Leopards, Challengers, and M1s have in a genuine tank vs tank setting.

Germany might as well just send all 300 rust buckets and embed design engineers to figure out how to make a modern replacement.

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YlangScent t1_j630sht wrote

>Who's going to invade them anyways?

Same way Ukraine was thinking before 2014.

It's irrelevant what the current situation of the world is. It's utterly unpredictable what the future brings and extremely irresponsible for a country to give up war or defense material. Just look at Sweden and Finland scrambling to join NATO to gain protection now and giving up 'ideals'.

Equipment can be as old and obsolete as they come, it is still better than not having them. Especially if the 'enemy' is currently unlikely to expand their arsenal.

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