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RabidBeaverLake t1_j8uen66 wrote

I guess the ADA didn't apply here?

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vagfactory t1_j8x26tq wrote

not sure if that applies to every part of the building

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Imaginary-Voice1902 t1_j933mm7 wrote

It does.

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vagfactory t1_j93a4y4 wrote

I think it does here, but only because of there being a debate there. There are tons of places that don't have every area accessible. But I don't really know the law, so...

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[deleted] t1_j8uf3sc wrote

[deleted]

−284

MustLoveAllCats t1_j8vbhve wrote

The internet is great, it allows people to confidently post incorrect information like this, without any fear of consequences

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Pokemanic33 t1_j8vq0kg wrote

The best part is the random made up racism pulled out of thin air

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snakkeLitera t1_j8um5ga wrote

Historical buildings can be required to meet ramp standards if a non altering approach could be used. That stage is quite wide and not terribly long, there’s no reason they couldn’t use an l shaped detachable ramp that friction clamps to the interior stage. Here’s an example of one such modular system.

https://www.stagedrop.com/ramps/universal-stage-ramps

Or a free standing floor lift that can be flush to the stage without even requiring any damage to the building to attach so yes, the ada does still apply.

Here’s three different guides and companies that do historic accessibility.

Evaluation processes https://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/making-historic-properties-accessible.shtml

Professional contractor specialist https://www.ezaccess.com/post/making-historical-buildings-accessible

A second professional contractor this time UK https://www.rapidramp.co.uk/heritage

I will give you this he didn’t check in advance based on the comment of the dance hall’s spokesperson however the ada clearly stated public facilities must have an accessibility plan and that would include stage access because the stage is part of the public facilities.

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colemon1991 t1_j8wx1rs wrote

I've seen ADA access be a temporary ramp that is stored elsewhere when not needed for stages like this. I can't see an excuse if that's an option.

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snakkeLitera t1_j8wxur2 wrote

Yep! The first link I inserted I believe has similar models in temp too. Temporary ramps have their limitations of course and the ability to use it is dependant in stage height but with the number of grants and funding options for ada compliance, not to mention srt grant options as that historic building is owned by a dance company there is no reason for this to not be accessible.

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ColoradoN8tive t1_j8xgyy9 wrote

Yeah I stand corrected on the historical requirements but I’ll admit being involved in the audio industry, most historic buildings don’t have access to their stages - most times the hallways and stairways to the stage don’t even meet current building codes (stairs and too tall and steep and narrow) - half the time equipment gets lifted onto stages from the front. Which is even hard for able bodied people.

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snakkeLitera t1_j8xi2zf wrote

Hey thanks for standing corrected it means an awful lot. I’m a wheelchair user and access professional and part of the reason I got into it was because I grew up around the audio visual industry funnily enough. My older bro was a tech, now an av engineer for some bigwig company that runs tours for people like imagine dragons and stuff. I have more fun watchin the techs run around at shows half the time lol. But seeing the creativity and struggle that folks went through for their gear was part of what got my “fucking a’ there’s gotta be a better way” gears turning and got me interested in my field. Access helps everyone and if the stages had ramps that were wheelchair grade it would suck less for crews.

Access is complex and every so often there are stages that just fuckin, won’t work and when they don’t you don’t host there. That one dedinetly could have and honestly I’d love to hear from the campaign if they called ahead. Because if I had a nickel for every place that told me they had ramps and then I showed up and they didn’t well, I could afford a team to carry around and lift my dang chair up for me!

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Smodphan t1_j8uxyfc wrote

He might not have thought it worth the time

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smashkraft t1_j8vjx77 wrote

When plan b is crawling in a suit while trying to impress millions of people?

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Smodphan t1_j8w844p wrote

Is he? Did his team film and post it?

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smashkraft t1_j8wyqwt wrote

Why do you believe this was a lie when (1) a crowd witnessed this, (2) the councilman is on camera talking about this, and (3) the theater management sent out a press release statement apologizing and acknowledging the deficit of the facility

Soft paywall:

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/councilman-in-wheelchair-expresses-humiliation-following-mandatory-debate/

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Smodphan t1_j8wzd4m wrote

I was asking, not doubting. Everyone is extremely reactionary about it though

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PM_ME_SEXIST_OPINION t1_j8x66gj wrote

Funny, that. Cause your opinion that this was merely a political stunt is a thoroughly reactionary one.

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Mod_Accountability t1_j8wva1s wrote

More of that standard "minorities have all the unfair advantages" thinly veiled racism.

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orrocos t1_j8x2z86 wrote

>And I think they choose to not name the business and building because it’s minority owned.

What in the world are you talking about? The business is named multiple times in the article.

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orsikbattlehammer t1_j8wpjyv wrote

Jesus people can y’all start listening to disabled people?

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PancakeParthenon t1_j8xf12m wrote

Sorry, can't. Disabled people are unable to contribute to capital and the overall "wealth" of the system. Might as well not exist! Same for women who can't produce children and anyone else who can't keep it going. If the government euthanized everyone of the undesirables, the GDP would go up!

(Deep, deep sarcasm)

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idahononono t1_j8xqjaa wrote

Damn, that’s some dark shit, wish there wasn’t any truth to it…….

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Wheels9690 t1_j8x054k wrote

Because it requires effort.

Sucks, but that's the reality.

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Manimal31 t1_j8vnpui wrote

It's funny all the comments are like publicity stunt or arguing whether there really is a ramp or not. My first thought was why isn't someone helping him. Take a couple big guys and lift him and his chair up there. There's a pretty big dude right in the pic. Come on man help him out

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roguetrick t1_j8votsp wrote

The article states they tried and failed.

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Manimal31 t1_j8xrd58 wrote

No it says event organizers couldn't lift it. I bet you it was an insurance thing and who are the organizers probably not very strong people. I just mean regular Joe's who were there. Hard to believe there wasn't 3 dudes able lift him and his chair above their waist.

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Viper_JB t1_j8wwts4 wrote

Probably not work the risk of dropping him things get really unstable when you're lifting a heavy weight over chest height.

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Manimal31 t1_j8xqyqs wrote

Ya that sounds like a cop out honestly. Unstable ya ok. I'm a fairly big guy and me and the dude to the left could easily lift that up. It's a chair all told probably 250 lbs with the guy on it at most. 3 dudes average size no problem. Guaranteed it was some bureaucratic BS about insurance or somethin.

0

KaisarDragon t1_j8v9k7u wrote

López said his office reviews and approves applications for venues looking to host debates. Cleo Parker Robinson Dance’s application, obtained by The Denver Post through a public records request, indicated that its “theater is ADA accessible via our back entrance.” López office granted the application approval.

So did it exist and this is a non issue or was the app approved when it DIDN'T actually exist?

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MustLoveAllCats t1_j8vbro7 wrote

Theatre is ADA accessible via back entrance does NOT mean stage is ADA accessible. t can simply mean that ADA accessibility is available for guests.

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[deleted] t1_j8xbuuc wrote

[deleted]

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misdreavus79 t1_j8xtyky wrote

The implication here being that people with physical disabilities don't deserve to dance?

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KaisarDragon t1_j8y91qo wrote

How the fuck do did you get that? You read the first sentence and then stop? You ignore the second sentence all together and decide "fuck it, time to show my ass?"

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RuneanPrincess t1_j8vbkux wrote

The theater being accessible is not the same as the stage being accessible which was the problem. It sounds like they didn't think of one of the participants needing accessibility.

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roguetrick t1_j8vow39 wrote

Which is hilarious because he's the incumbent. They straight up didn't seem to care who was coming.

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TacoMeat563 t1_j8x0x4s wrote

I don’t think they didn’t care, more sounds like it just didn’t come to mind. In their defense they probably have not had many wheelchair bound performers in the past, otherwise there would have been a solution in place

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EquivalentInflation t1_j8x9um4 wrote

>I don’t think they didn’t care, more sounds like it just didn’t come to mind.

They literally got a call from his campaign asking if they were ADA compliant.

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TacoMeat563 t1_j8y4tqi wrote

And their building literally is. The person answering the phone probably didn’t think through the stage aspect. I doubt the phone operator at the front desk was some political schill that wanted to embarrass anyone.

0

EquivalentInflation t1_j8y51y5 wrote

The stage is part of the building. They are not ADA compliant. You're arguing a completely different topic here. No one brought up political sabotage. This is a place of business not giving a shit about a man with disabilities.

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Argikeraunos t1_j8xjppd wrote

>I don’t think they didn’t care, more sounds like it just didn’t come to mind.

Functionally no difference between either option. And, anyway, how would it not come to mind when the person in the wheelchair is the incumbent?

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TacoMeat563 t1_j8y4z6m wrote

And you know all your representatives? And their disabilities and allergies I assume?

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Argikeraunos t1_j8y5gvx wrote

I suppose I would know them if I were organizing an event centered around them.

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TacoMeat563 t1_j8ysop7 wrote

You’re organizing? Or their campaign booked your venue and you answered their questions correctly - in that the building itself is ADA compliant

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roguetrick t1_j8z53le wrote

>The Cleo Parker Robinson Dance school served as both the sponsor and venue for the debate, which was facilitated by the Denver Clerk and Recorder’s Office.

>Denver Clerk Paul López ... said his office reviews and approves applications for venues looking to host debates. Cleo Parker Robinson Dance’s application, obtained by The Denver Post through a public records request, indicated that its “theater is ADA accessible via our back entrance.”

I really don't know where folks are coming up with this shit. The venue is the one who applied to host the debate. The clerk didn't do due diligence in actually figuring out the application was appropriate, but you'd also figure the venue would actually try to understand who the hell is coming if they're the ones applying to host it.

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vagfactory t1_j8xqowe wrote

No, everyone is against disabled people. There is no other way this could happen without malicious intent (according to reddit)

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misdreavus79 t1_j8xu6q2 wrote

I always find it funny, in a "what a waste of time" way, when people obsess over intent.

Who gives a shit if there was malicious intent? Dude still had to crawl onto the stage, no?

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vagfactory t1_j8xus3c wrote

Intent matters a ton, wtf are you smoking?

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misdreavus79 t1_j8y0xhc wrote

Not as much as you might think. If someone punches you in the nose, you're going to bleed regardless of whether it was an accident or not.

We can't read people's minds, but we can evaluate actions on their own merit. Not only that, but a lot of people hide behind intent in order to not change their behavior. If it's continually an accident, you can continually keep doing the thing over and over again!

But, again, the important part here: the intent of an action doesn't negate the action. And, in this particular case, whether they intended to have an inaccessible stage or not doesn't change the fact that the stage was inaccessible.

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TacoMeat563 t1_j8y58z4 wrote

Your example is poop. No one gets “punched” in the face by accident. You can get “hit” in the face on accident. A “punch” is intended.

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misdreavus79 t1_j8y6cxm wrote

The other thing I always find funny in a "what a waste of time" sense! When people become purposefully obtuse for no real reason!

You mean to tell me you can't come up with any example where someone could hit you by accident? Not a single one?

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TacoMeat563 t1_j8ysalf wrote

Reread my comment, and then I guess go back to yours and change “hit” to “punch” to make me look like a dummy.

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vagfactory t1_j8yf7rt wrote

Oh, now I see where you are misunderstanding. Intent matters for what kind of reaction is expected/appropriate.

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comeoneileeeeeen t1_j8yu2vm wrote

Not just any candidate - he was the incumbent! It's already a bad oversight but when someone is already on the council it's baffling for this to not have been flagged ahead of time.

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lonniemarie t1_j8ykflp wrote

Humiliation to the people who set the stage up. For this man. Shows. Where there is a will, There is a way.

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Mary_chiefs t1_j971sgr wrote

Who in the hell was in charge of the debate? Why in the world would they not prepare for this candidate. People are unfucking real & look at the 2 dumb asses watching.

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Ok_Panda_8596 t1_j8xj51q wrote

Discrimination for handicapped and discrimination based on age are the last refuges of the “ jerk “ Culture.

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S_an_Dr_A t1_j8xem1s wrote

So 4 people. If a team of 12 can lift a small S10 sized truck a wheelchair and a man should be feasible

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dallased25 t1_j8x0h9p wrote

Clearly his opponent chose this stage on purpose to get a leg up on him...or two.

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S_an_Dr_A t1_j8wvb8f wrote

So everyone just stood and stared and watched him struggle? Carry that damn wheelchair up. 2 good sized boys should be able to handle it. Lift from the knees!

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vagfactory t1_j8x2cmp wrote

i personally don't see that as humiliating. if anything, i see it as strength and perseverance.

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EquivalentInflation t1_j8x9j8m wrote

I'm sure that the man in the wheelchair is glad that you've now told him how to feel.

Come on, you've gotta recognize the irony of you failing to listen to his message, on an article about how they failed to consider him.

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abedofevilandlettuce t1_j8xak0a wrote

I think you're both right. His response showed strength/perseverance, but it's still humiliating to face the situation, period.

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vagfactory t1_j8xcd7g wrote

Where did I tell him how to feel? I was saying how I felt, which was done to help others in this situation to feel better about it.

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EquivalentInflation t1_j8xdedd wrote

>an actual person in a wheelchair: This was a humiliating and painful experience that I hated.

>Some random internet fuck: OMG, no, it’s actually super inspiring babes! Yass queen, it’s so empowering for me to watch you be denied civil rights!

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vagfactory t1_j8xdris wrote

The reason someone would find something humiliating is because they think others are judging them negatively about it. I am saying I am not judging him negatively, but actually in a positive manner.

Why are you so toxic?

−7

EquivalentInflation t1_j8xi7ek wrote

The man in the wheelchair is literally the one who called it humiliating. You’re really trying to argue he is the negative one here?

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vagfactory t1_j8xpcaw wrote

Again, not once did I attack his opinion like you want to think I am. Not once did I say he is the negative person. Why would I say I was impressed by his actions if so?

YOU are the negative one refusing to accept a positive statement supporting a disabled person overcoming adversity.

−1

mooseman1776 t1_j8um2bz wrote

Horseshit. I have been on many stages in my life. I have never seen nor heard of one without a ramp. That’s how things get put on stages in the first place! Everything gets rolled up on ramps using trucks and dollies.

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MustLoveAllCats t1_j8vbkep wrote

Which is why this is newsworthy. Funny how you didn't come to that conclusion.

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BlooperHero t1_j8vjyke wrote

I've never been on a stage with a ramp, though I've been on plenty where you don't need one if you enter from backstage.

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EquivalentInflation t1_j8wvrlw wrote

Yeah, and I’ve never been hit by a car. Clearly, all these news stories about being hit by a car are all just made up.

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eNonsense t1_j8xba82 wrote

There's literally a comment in the article from the venue owning up to the oversight and saying they're committed to being more prepared in the future. Don't you think that if there was a ramp backstage, the venue would have used their press comment to tell everyone "sorry about that, but it was a mixup and they could have just gone backstage but they didn't ask."

Everyone in this thread who didn't bother to read the article or use their brain for 60 seconds are so damn sure of themselves and their own horseshit. lol.

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mooseman1776 t1_j907tkt wrote

I’ve probably been on 30+ stages from small to large. I’ve yet to encounter one without a ramp. I feel sorry for the crews doing load-outs and load-ins. And especially for the handicapped guy. How in earth fo you run a stage without one. Everything is on castors.

−2

ILoveYouJesus316 t1_j8wy2f3 wrote

They use portable ramps. They aren’t made into the stage. It’s unfortunate no one thought to get one for him that night.

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_Silly_Wizard_ t1_j8ufce7 wrote

I can guarantee there's wheelchair access backstage.

What.

−34

RuneanPrincess t1_j8vb8b5 wrote

It's a historic dance school, not a traditional theater. It's quite possible that only stairs were built for dancers. It also sounds like they have a solution, it just wasn't ready. Its not ADA to require setup time for accessibility but it sounds like that's been their plan.

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Ainayan t1_j8ufip0 wrote

Seems kinda messed up that you took a picture of him… I mean, I know you’re trying to bring light to the issue, but snapping a pic of him while he struggles just seems kinda weird and cruel.

−49

JustDiscoveredSex t1_j8wtfac wrote

No the weird and cruel part was forcing him to do that.

Bringing things like that to light is what a newspaper is for.

Also, they gained his permission before running it.

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[deleted] t1_j8urgs1 wrote

[deleted]

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MustLoveAllCats t1_j8vbw7g wrote

Or, you know, the much more likely alternative that they wanted to showcase the humiliation so people will be upset.

9

alrighty66 t1_j8vsi6c wrote

I as many others would of help him get on stage. Makes me think he is playing politics.

−53

JustDiscoveredSex t1_j8wt6tx wrote

You’re gonna hoist 400 pounds several feet into the air? Can I watch?

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alrighty66 t1_j90mg66 wrote

400lbs. is a little too much for me. I spoke too soon.

2

of_patrol_bot t1_j8vsipx wrote

Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.

It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.

Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.

Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.

16

alrighty66 t1_j8vub42 wrote

Oh no the patrol bot found me. SHOUD'VE done knowed

−30

OfCourse4726 t1_j8w63j5 wrote

crawl? it's like a show to me. if he really couldnt get up, he could've had a family member carry him or assist him. making everyone watch him crawl is purely political and it's annoying to see.

−59

dukeimre t1_j8wm4kn wrote

He wasn't dragging himself 50 feet across a stage by his hands or something, shooing away would-be helpers. He just clambered up onto the stage (which is something mostly done with one's arms anyways), with the idea being that his wheelchair would be lifted (by others) onto the stage with him. But then they couldn't lift the wheelchair, so he had to come back down. So he did accept help.

I don't get why there are so many folks in this thread whose reaction to a guy in a wheelchair not getting the disability accommodations required by law is to blame the guy in the wheelchair...?

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JustDiscoveredSex t1_j8wtsv2 wrote

Because they ache to bash a politician + they have zero experience with disability or wheelchairs.

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[deleted] t1_j8utf1s wrote

[deleted]

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P_K148 t1_j8veelx wrote

You can just admit you didn't read the article or not say anything if you are not going to take the 5 minutes to read it. It answers that by stating that it's an historical building that does not have ramp access. It continues to say that the owner of the building did not receive a request to provide a ramp in advance. It further goes into detail on the ADA and how a ramp was required regardless of a request as it was a public event.

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hawklost t1_j8wo0bz wrote

"López said his office reviews and approves applications for venues looking to host debates. Cleo Parker Robinson Dance’s application, obtained by The Denver Post through a public records request, indicated that its “theater is ADA accessible via our back entrance.” López office granted the application approval."

The article literally states that one of the offices reviewed and approved.

−16

JustDiscoveredSex t1_j8wsz0v wrote

Right. This is the recorder’s office and they blindly approved a facility that had ADA access to the building without ensuring there was ADA access to the stage itself. López’s office fucked up BIG TIME, which is why this is news.

Why they thought they’d “just lift” a 250-pound electric wheelchair containing a 150-pound man onto a stage that’s several feet high is beyond me. Clearly didn’t work and now the organizers have well-deserved egg on their faces for embarrassing a disabled man and breaking the law.

Dude would have been fined $124,000 for NOT getting up on stage.

12

Quarren_ t1_j8xyyqk wrote

Did your finger make it to the article

2