Submitted by _Brandobaris_ t3_11jknh4 in nottheonion
Comments
riggerrig t1_jb3p5vt wrote
I cannot speak to the Catholic church, but I know a lot of people who are comforted by the existence of God. Some people just cannot handle the thought that life is meaningless.
This is where we might disagree, but the problem occurs when people create positions of power, and then someone warps that power for their benefit.
This happens in secular areas as well but in different ways. It is a fairly well known fact that psycopaths seek positions of power, CEO, lawyers, Cops, pastors, or any position of power that holds sway over others.
The realistic solution to this is that the general population gets smarter to detect and then avoid people like this. You might seen that video of that pastor with 760 million net worth with a private jet. Any person who continues to give to that church is deluding themselves that money helps others. It is just a lot more visible when Pastors go bad then say a more private "job" or "position of power". A regular person is far removed from a CEO or lawyer, usually.
We cannot get rid of these positions or jobs, but we as a society have to hold others accountable for their actions.
Rosebunse t1_jb3sdhs wrote
You know, you can believe in God and not organized religion
SYLOH t1_jb452kc wrote
Or believe in God, take advantage of the structure of organized religion, just not the Catholic Church.
People have been sick of the Catholic Church for centuries and have been doing something about it since 1517.
I'm an atheist, and even being an organized theist has better options.
GoldenRamoth t1_jb58ubw wrote
Yeah.
Theism isn't the issue. Creating power structures that get abused has always been the issue.
Creating systemic accountability is incredibly hard.
Jampine t1_jb5hori wrote
But wouldn't it basically be impossible to merge theism with accountability?
There's no definitive proof that anyone has spoken to, heard or even seen any devine entity, so the entire system is basically built on hearsay.
And because of that, it's impossible to police, since everyone's argument about how it should be run has the same amount of evidence (zero).
Smart-Rip-3733 t1_jb6333x wrote
The impossibility of policing is due to the concentration of power. Organizations with access to children often have the problem of child sex abuse. You see this with or without "god" in the mix.
Feraltrout t1_jb5oeq4 wrote
That's the part that grinds my gears, accountability should very easy but there is always some excuse for the greed
TheRealVillain666 t1_jb5r9kn wrote
There's a reason the Puritans fucked off to the americas, they were whinging about being persecuted for not being able to persecute others.
It's just that we got tired of their shit in the 16th century.
wewora t1_jb7etej wrote
Most followers don't want that. They want to tell themselves they are good people because their butts touch a pew once a week, they say specific words, perform useless rituals, and occasionally talk about religion. Because that doesn't take any effort or sacrifice. They don't want to use religion to become better people or make the world a better place. It's all about how religion benefits themselves.
Because then they can spend all their time outside of church worrying about how much more money they can get, how many more vacations they can go on, how big/fancy a house they can afford, what else they can do to entertain themselves, boost their ego, and serve their vanity, all while telling themselves they're actually exceptionally good people just because they slapped a label on themselves and go to a specific place once a week - unless they're on vacation, of course.
And obviously, telling themselves they are better than others or trying to force rules that they themselves don't follow. It's amazing how they will only talk about religion and how wonderful it is to be part of that religion...even though it hasn't influenced them to become better people yet. Just gotta start converting (because it doesn't take any effort or sacrifice), but definitely don't need to do any volunteer work or donate to any charities. No no, it's all about the words and low effort rituals.
Rosebunse t1_jb7idlb wrote
I don't know, I think it's more than that. People want to know that life has meaning and purpose. And these big churches provide that.
Take this story. I can't stop crying let it, I don't understand it. I'm mad at God and the universe. But when you add organized religion to it, it turns it into something else. You can blame the Devil or say there was some greater purpose here. Or you can loon smugly and say that this senseless tragedy could never happen to you.
wewora t1_jb7jada wrote
I think religious people are more likely to think that it could never happen to them, because God is protecting them, or because they think they are good people and bad things don't happen to good people, and if it does, then they tell themselves it will all turn out fine eventually. Because they cannot cope with the reality that bad things can happen to anyone for no reason, it's all just shitty luck. What kind of benevolent god would let his own creations suffer like this? Surely if he had a plan, the plan would be that someone would come along and find the toddler, not let it starve to death. Why would a just and all knowing god, allow innocent babies to be born with cancer? Because based on religion, he himself chose to make them that way.
When I hear about terrible, senseless things happening, I don't loom smugly. I shudder and think that it could happen to me.
Edit: I don't have anything against religion. There's a miniscule number of people who actually use religion to try to become better people. There's also a small amount of people who join religion because it brings them comfort and community, which is fine too so long as they understand that just being part of a group does not make them good people.
But the vast, vast majority of people want to use religion to benefit themselves, and/or to control and worsen the lives of others. I have a friend who talks such a big talk about how religion is so important to her, how her relationship with god is so important to her, regularly posts things about her church. I have never, ever heard her talk about doing volunteer work or supporting a charity. Ever. And when it came time to do what was best for others during the pandemic, to live humbly and stay home, you know, the entire actual points of the religion? Well, she decieded that having a large wedding in 2020 and then multiple vacations were actually what was most important to her. I guess all those years of giving up chocolate for half of lent just wasn't enough to prepare her for actually doing god's work. But gosh she is just so religious!
Rosebunse t1_jb7l00v wrote
I think that's why I'm mad at God. It can happen to me. It can happen to all of us. God works in mysterious ways and all that. There is a greater plan but that doesn't mean we're going to like our place in it.
And when I bring this up in church or with religious people, dear God do they hate me for it.
That poor little boy. All I can think of is how he spent his last moments on Earth wondering why his father wasn't helping him, wasn't picking him up and getting him ready for their day or feeding him. It's all I can think of. No one was being cruel there, the dad just died. His family called within a reasonable amount of time, really. No one was being cruel here.
I can't stop crying. I have been crying about it all day.
wewora t1_jb7lofy wrote
My advice would be to use those feelings to do some good in the world. Go volunteer at a food bank or a crisis center. Help someone who is still suffering. And keep doing it. Regardless of if god or an afterlife exists, at least you'll know you did something in this life to make things better for others.
Rosebunse t1_jb7m6ao wrote
No, you're right. You're right.
kodaxmax t1_jblqzw3 wrote
not a christain god. if the old testament is to belived he would have personally dropped metorites on all the people making him look bad or gave their children the plague or something by now.
A modern utopian christain god wouldn't have let these things happen at all.
ackermann t1_jb6q78n wrote
True. Although, if you’re going to reject the religion of your parents and family, that you were raised with, that opens a rather overwhelming choice about which other god you’re going to choose. There are probably thousands to pick from, different gods that humans have come up with over the centuries.
I suppose you could simply accept that god exists, but that humans don’t/can’t know anything about him/her, the “spiritual but not religious” route that’s now popular. Don’t subscribe to any particular interpretation of god. But this is probably less comforting, less appealing to many, who would prefer a more personal knowledge of god?
The god that your family raised you with, often comes with what feels like very compelling evidence: that most of your friends, family, and people you’ve come to greatly respect, all seem to agree on this particular god/religion
Rosebunse t1_jb71qzj wrote
I read this today and now I just...why? God why? There is not even any point.
Electrical_Parfait64 t1_jb7a4bv wrote
God has a plan even if we don’t understand it
Rosebunse t1_jb7e8ah wrote
I get that but still. And not believing in God just makes me feel worse. It's not like there was even anything malicious about this. The dad just had a heart attack and the baby starved.
mvanvrancken t1_jb8b5pe wrote
Yes, BUT - then you're just basically inventing a god that you like. It's possible that ALL of the religions are wrong, but I find it even more probable that your personal opinion on gods would be even wronger.
Rosebunse t1_jb8bbqz wrote
Dude, I accidentally read the worst story I possibly could today. My God isn't benevolent and good and doesn't grant me wishes. I think I'm probably right on this one.
mvanvrancken t1_jb8c4ki wrote
There is an astonishingly high chance that there is absolutely nothing at all that one could call a "god". It's an entirely fabricated concept.
On a side note, sorry about the story you read. I've certainly seen some day ruiners.
Rosebunse t1_jb8e0y0 wrote
I guess I am not ready to not believe. Plus, I have found that even without God, atheists ask the same questions. They try and find patterns and reasons too.
mvanvrancken t1_jb8er2g wrote
Yup, we’re human too! Patterns is what we do, sometimes to outrageous effect.
Rosebunse t1_jb8fdv7 wrote
I mean, look at eugenics, even the Holocaust had a weird atheist bent to it. Even without God, people want to believe that their suffering matters or they can fix things.
mvanvrancken t1_jb8fuxw wrote
You're kidding, right? Gott Mit Uns (God With Us) was the motto of the Reich. Hitler gained support from the Catholic Church and steadfastly argued that Germany was a Christian nation, and willed by God to pursue the purification of Germany.
tacoTig3r t1_jb4y060 wrote
That does not sound very christian (profitable), where's the point (power) in that?
PM_ME_UR_SEAHORSE t1_jb5mt5q wrote
We could get rid of CEOs, I definitely think the answer is to radically change the economic system, not to keep these insane power imbalances and just hope that somehow better people will fill those positions
Kind_Ferret_3219 t1_jbmttad wrote
I don't believe in God and I certainly don't think that life is meaningless. I used to be a practising Catholic, but realised that most of the stuff taught by the church was rubbish. The life that we lead should be as meaningful as possible. I can't understand why you would hope that your soul would ascend to heaven after you die. I like to make the life that I'm leading now more important than any after death expectations. I respect a person's right to believe in whichever creed they wish, but to my mind the Church is about controlling people's behaviour and earning revenue.
[deleted] t1_jb44obc wrote
[removed]
ryukman1 t1_jbi4u9j wrote
The main issue is giving men the power to speak on behalf of god. Organized religion is a mistake.
supercyberlurker t1_jb3gpj4 wrote
It's basically semi-codified generational abuse.
grunkage t1_jb3pr25 wrote
I'd take the "semi" out, but agreed.
JohnHwagi t1_jb3lxlm wrote
I’m a dude, and I think most major religions are pretty fucked. They’re even worse to women though. It’s hard to see it any other way than people being taken advantage of.
ghambone t1_jb3jf5r wrote
Or, ANY religion. Like, they all teach bs as canon.
[deleted] t1_jb44jr2 wrote
[removed]
RaceSignificant1794 t1_jb4a0ou wrote
Generational Trauma Bonded
captHij t1_jb4hfiu wrote
Amen.
There are other denominations that are much more closely aligned to the points of disagreements discussed in the article. It seems a bit oniony to read people upset that they are not treated as being fully human because an organization's official stance is these people are not capable of the central functions associated with the organization. Yet, the same people refuse to make a change and deny their own agency. What are they waiting for? It has been over 2000 years, and the Church is not going to change.
The people seem to think that when they get to the Pearly Gates St. Peter is going to say to them, "You believed all the right stuff, sought penance, and walked in faith, but you spent Sunday mornings in the wrong building. Sorry, it is off to Hell with you."
MWF123 t1_jb5kxnx wrote
If you’re raised in it, you grow up believing they’re the moral authority of the world, and to even question that means you have a problem.
Also, family and community pressure.
Sir_Penguin21 t1_jb60d1m wrote
When abusers get power they are good at holding it. Personally it is clear the Catholic Church shouldn’t exist. Any other organization that systematically raped children like that, covered it up, and fought against accountability when caught would be shut down, the only reason they still exist is people clinging to religion.
bunker_man t1_jb64tlu wrote
Unlike protestant churches, catholics believe that you need to be a part of a church with a valid line of sacraments going back to the apostles. So anyone who takes that seriously feels like they can't leave.
TimeVortex161 t1_jb4zjmg wrote
As a practicing catholic, it’s about reforming from the inside. One tenant of the catholic and orthodox faiths that is important is the historical continuity (known as apostolic succession). The idea of separating the church from the traditions it has inherited (not all traditions mind you, many of the worst started after 1000CE) is considered the equivalent of making a kid an orphan for life just because their parents are abusive.
I’m not saying you have to agree, but the bulk of people affiliated with the church is not it’s leadership, just as the bulk of Americans are not it’s government. Most of us want a church that is nonabusive, fair to all, diverse, etc. euthanizing it will not solve any problems.
acebandaged t1_jb57syu wrote
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Smart-Rip-3733 t1_jb63sn4 wrote
As a Catholic I have the right to try to change it from the inside. Change is slow in an organization that is 2000 years old but it will come or we don't survive. Saying Catholic should be synonymous with child abuse is quite a bigoted thing to say. I should be synonymous with child abuse? Hateful.
Blink_Billy t1_jb7iqbe wrote
There’s that persecution complex
acebandaged t1_jb9nxfv wrote
Calling you out for supporting a massive, established pedophile ring is bigotry and hateful?
Wow, what a surprising thing for a pedophile to say.
mvanvrancken t1_jb8buei wrote
What would the Catholic Church need to do in order to get you to just walk the fuck away? If they're this wrong about the basics then just imagine the assload of doctrinal crap they're selling you.
Run-Riot t1_jb5j6mb wrote
Not having an openly white-hot hatred of the Catholic Church on reddit?
Bold move and good luck with one of reddit’s biggest circle jerks.
TheRealVillain666 t1_jb5shgm wrote
Yes of course, why all the hatred?
Have you been living under a rock or something? :
So much abuse that if the church was a corporation it would have been shut down and it's executives in jail.
A good documentary for you would be the Magdelen laundries.
When you have watched that come back and ask me why there is so little appetite for the Catholic Church.
Electrical_Parfait64 t1_jb7awyn wrote
There’s a huge appetite for the Catholic Church. That’s why they’re the largest religion in the world. The pope has also shown more interest in updating the Church than at any other point in time than maybe Vatican 2
Civil-Mouse1891 t1_jbi52yb wrote
That’s because he knows good PR n advertising…
hesh582 t1_jb730f5 wrote
> historical continuity (known as apostolic succession).
apostolic succession means both a lot more and a lot less than "historic continuity".
You can (and they have...) dramatically reform practices without those reforms even indirectly interfering with apostolic succession, which is about episcopal or ecclesiastical continuity and not necessarily historical continuity writ large.
You could make the doctrinal argument that apostolic continuity prevents female bishops, but I can't really see how you could extend that to anything else these women are asking for.
TimeVortex161 t1_jb7r5rt wrote
I’m aware of that, I just wanted to avoid jargon terms for the sake of those not in the weeds.
Crystalraf t1_jb7k9u4 wrote
They are coerced by the Church to choose between the Church or hell. it's that simple.
socialistrock t1_jbh5z2o wrote
Trauma bonding?
kodaxmax t1_jblqknu wrote
They prey on the weak and ignorant. Most are born into an already catholic family and are brainwashed from inception. Many people struggling with poverty might be lucky enough to find aid from a local church or churchgoer and assume the whole church is like that. etc..
[deleted] t1_jb3ufr5 wrote
[removed]
HarryHacker42 t1_jb3bae9 wrote
‘Sick of it’: Catholic women vent frustration over
sex, power and abuse
By
Jordan Baker
March 6, 2023 — 5.00am
Key
points
A new study about to be presented to the Vatican is the
largest-ever to study the views of Catholic women.The study says that 69 per cent of females think women
should be eligible for the priesthood, while 72 per cent said remarriage
after divorce should be allowed.Pope Francis has opened the door to women deacons and
more say in church governance but has ruled out ordaining them to the
priesthood.
The largest study of Catholic women
in the church’s 2000-year history has found they are hungry for reform. They
resent their lack of decision-making power, want to follow their consciences on
sex and contraception, and think the church should be more inclusive of the
diverse and the divorced.
Australian researchers led the
global study, to be presented at the Vatican on International Women’s Day,
which also found women want to be allowed to preach, dislike priests promoting
political agendas, and are concerned about a lack of transparency in church
governance.
Theologian and sociologist of
religion at the University of Newcastle Tracy McEwan co-authored the study,
which surveyed 17,200 women from 14 countries.Credit:Flavio Brancaleone
“There was this underlying sense of
hurt, and certainly this feeling of being voiceless and ignored,” said
co-author Tracy McEwan, a theologian and sociologist of religion at the
University of Newcastle. “These are not women on the edge. These are women in
the church. Being Catholic is important to them, and they are struggling.”
The study, which surveyed 17,200
women from 140 countries, comes as Pope Francis leads the church in a
discussion about whether women should have a greater role in its governance and
ceremonies. He has ruled out female priests, but the deaconate – someone who
assists priests during mass and can preach the homily – is a possibility.
McEwan will present the findings to
female ambassadors to the Holy See on Wednesday. They will include Australia’s
representative, Chiara Porro, who helped organise the presentation. The first
woman ever to be allowed to vote with the Vatican’s synod of bishops, Xaviere
sister Nathalie Becquart, has also been briefed on the research.
The survey results show 84 per cent
of women supported reform in the church, and two-thirds wanted radical reform.
Almost three in 10 said there would be no place for them without it. There was
significant concern about abuses of power and spiritual harm, particularly by
male clerics. “I cling on to the church by my fingernails,” said one
respondent.
Almost eight in 10 agreed women
should be fully included at all levels of church leadership, and more than
three-quarters agreed that women should be able to give the homily, a
commentary on the gospel during services. Two-thirds said women should be
eligible for the priesthood. “I’m ashamed of my church when I see only men in
procession,” said one respondent.
More than four in five said LGBTQ
people should be included in all activities, and just over half strongly agreed
same-sex couples were entitled to a religious marriage. Seven in 10 said
remarriage should be allowed after civil divorce, and three-quarters agreed
that women should have freedom of conscience on their sexual and reproductive
decisions.
Some respondents pointed out that
they do much of the work in the church, but get no recognition or say. “If
every woman in every parish stopped cleaning, cooking, dusting, typing,
directing ... for just one week, every parish would have to close,” said one.
“Yet, why do women have so little real power?”
Co-author Kathleen McPhillips, a
sociologist at the University of Newcastle, said she was surprised at the
enthusiasm with which women embraced the survey. “What it showed is they’re
really sick of it,” she said. “They want to be there, but they’re sick of not
being able to contribute. In their secular lives, they can do so much more.
Study co-author Kathleen McPhillips,
a sociologist at the University of Newcastle, said she was surprised at the
enthusiasm with which women embraced the survey.Credit:Flavio Brancaleone
“It’s still the largest religion in
the world. It’s hugely important we understand it. The church itself hasn’t
been interested in studying its own population.”
The results varied between
countries. Australia was more conservative than the global average on some of
the indicators; 74 per cent of women said they wanted reform, compared with the
global average of 84. Appetite for change was strongest in the Catholic
strongholds of Ireland and Spain, as well as Germany.
But the tension has been evident in
the Australian church and boiled over at a historic plenary council meeting
last year, at which bishops failed to pass two motions aimed at empowering
women in the church. About 60 delegates staged a silent protest. The motions
were re-worded and passed.
Younger women were also more
conservative than older ones, with the 18- to 25-year-old age group least
likely to want reform, according to the survey, and the over 70-year-olds most
likely. The eldest women were also more likely to support same-sex marriage and
the homily being preached by women.
Pope Francis has ruled out female
priests.Credit:AFP
But even among conservative women,
there was concern about having their contribution respected. “They were
articulating the idea that you want women to be a certain way, that’s OK, but
give us our due, give us our voice,” said McEwan.
The church is a hierarchical
patriarchy, but McEwan hopes the results will get through to those who will
ultimately make the decisions. “I’m hoping that presenting this major report to
the women ambassadors and to the more senior women in the Vatican will have an
impact, and it will feed through,” she said.
_Brandobaris_ OP t1_jb3c3qb wrote
Thanks. Mine loaded but others are having issues.
Crooked_Cock t1_jb3j1rm wrote
Yknow if reporters really want to get the word out about sex abuse in the church they really shouldn’t lock their stories behind a fucking subscription service.
lostcauz707 t1_jb4l2ik wrote
Priests have been molesting children since forever and these people still go to church constantly and defend them as they get shuffled around like trigger happy cops. There is really nothing new to this, even in regards to women.
[deleted] t1_jb56s8h wrote
The catholic church has a sex abuse scandal being covered up by members of the church
The Mormon church has a sex abuse scandal being covered up by members of the church
The souther Baptist church has a sex abuse scandal being covered up hy members of the church
...and who are the conservatives going after? LGBT people are drag queens.
Fucking worthless hypocrites. I'd leave my children with a drag queens over a Christian pastor any day
gandhikahn t1_jb5jzmu wrote
At least with drag queens theres a really good chance their sexual preferences feature consenting adults..
Can't say the same for priests
Vanhandle t1_jb3p6ym wrote
Huh, that's weird. I've been seeing ads for "He gets us" saying that Christianity has always championed women /s
I reported that shit for misinformation. Religion has always been a means of consolidating power, and that realm has always been controlled by men. Pretty much all religions operate this way.
iamsofriggintired t1_jb3ywzh wrote
I blocked the username that the ads are under and I haven't seen one since. It's great! I don't even know if they still advertise on reddit since I haven't seen one in quite a while. Highly recommend.
Edit: Suddenly, blocks no longer mean fuck all to this account. I'm getting the ads no matter how many times I downvote and block. Clearly, I'm not interested in this content, why are you showing it to me. Bring back the solar panels and cars and weird niche apps, PLEASE.
Fire_RPG_at_the_Z t1_jb40guy wrote
Have you looked into the funding for those?
Bishop51213 t1_jb46fmw wrote
Have you? What's the dirt?
[deleted] t1_jb510a6 wrote
It's the standard alt right funded mealy mouthed bullshit that pretends to be progressive to reel you in.
Real progressive churches don't spend hella money on tv ads.
Bishop51213 t1_jb5i10b wrote
Yeah that doesn't surprise me one bit
Fire_RPG_at_the_Z t1_jb850u2 wrote
It's heavily funded by evangelical groups that do not support the inclusive message of the ads. These people are religious extremists who want to impose a very noninclusive world on the rest of us.
For example, one of them is the money behind Hobby Lobby. Those assholes are part of the reason your employer gets to decide whether your health insurance covers reproductive care.
They're using a progressive message they despise to polish the image of Christianity... the same image they have spent their lives tarnishing. These people can go sit on a cactus and spin.
[deleted] t1_jb44gkz wrote
[removed]
chasonreddit t1_jb6z4ia wrote
Christianity is by no means monolithic.
mileswilliams t1_jb4o6hs wrote
If you are a woman, avoid all religious men, Muslim, Catholic or Jewish you are going to have a bad time.
Flowchart83 t1_jb5wl7j wrote
History was not kind to women, and all religions are rooted in the past. To say that religions treated women wrongly is to say that the religion was wrong, and you know that isn't going to fly.
mileswilliams t1_jb5wy4r wrote
You literally said the same thing with more words.
Smart-Rip-3733 t1_jb648ei wrote
My Catholic husband is a feminist and a Marxist though.... There are differing levels of piety in any faith and painting with a broad brush is ignorant.
RBHubbell58 t1_jb35pyk wrote
Subscriber only.
HarryHacker42 t1_jb3bkvs wrote
I'm sure they'll fix it eventually but I'll give my trick.
Control-r : reload page
Control-a : select all
Control-C : copy
Then paste it into Word/LibreWriter/etc.
You have to be fast. But you can repeat until you get it done. I get it the first or second try now. Works on many walled off sites. And then, there is 12ft.io that works on sites too.
chasonreddit t1_jb6z8ym wrote
Or just install a javascript blocker add-on. Their mechanism is a joke. One click and you've got it.
go_comatose_for_me t1_jb3hpgf wrote
The bypass paywall clean extension bypasses a lot of paywalls, including this one.
SocDemGenZGaytheist t1_jb5208c wrote
gandhikahn t1_jb5k4k9 wrote
12ft.io
RaceSignificant1794 t1_jb49zo3 wrote
Locked. Nice. /s
Windturnscold t1_jb551if wrote
The only people who ever support conservative values are the ones trying to maintain their minority rule.
Smart-Rip-3733 t1_jb64bl8 wrote
Half of Catholics are liberal though.
PooPartySoraka t1_jb71nze wrote
source?
kodaxmax t1_jblrpv2 wrote
hers some. it seems hes correct. it nearly 50 50 exactly some years.
kodaxmax t1_jblrmbi wrote
*doubt*
Well shit whod have thought.
kodaxmax t1_jblrbpy wrote
it's in the name. They want to conserve the status quo.
AzLibDem t1_jb5iau1 wrote
Simple solution
[deleted] t1_jb44d21 wrote
[removed]
[deleted] t1_jb5ax14 wrote
[removed]
AutoModerator t1_jb5ax6i wrote
Sorry, but your account is too new to post. Your account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma. Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
[deleted] t1_jb64w1q wrote
[deleted]
chasonreddit t1_jb70xa9 wrote
Ok, I'm going to jump in here. I'm speaking as a male, raised Catholic, active in the church. I will not speak to theology with which I have several issues, but my church does many very good things in our area and I support it. They don't: molest children, indoctrinate, scam money, or many other things. They do: get money to poor families, provide counseling in things like alcoholism, family violence, and promote strong families which provide better outcomes for children.
I have always said that women should be equal in the church. An entity 2000 years in the making is a very large ship to turn. But we have openly gay members and even lectors (the guys that get up there and read the first couple readings) and eucharistic ministers. Women make up half of the finance committee. They are more than half of the eucharistic ministers.
Church rules do forbid them from being priest or deacons. I have never agreed with that and hope it will change. I agree with these women. Mostly. The bit about women "dislike priests promoting political agendas, and are concerned about a lack of transparency in church governance." Yeah, well get in line, it forms way back there.
We've come a long way in just the 60 years since Vatican II. It's a big organization with a lot of conflicting views. The church can be be criticized on the same day for being overly conservative and being communist in promoting "liberation theology" in poorer countries.
If I had the answer, I would offer it. But those who dismiss the issue are painting the church with a very broad brush.
thatweirdguyted t1_jbbt6o9 wrote
The various crimes and cover-ups, conscious choices to be intolerant, literally the whole ball of wax is only able to continue because people continue to enable them. They do so by being complacent with the atrocities committed by the church, but more importantly they do so by directly funding the leadership that allows these crimes to occur, and funding their coverups, their legal defense, etc etc.
Your church should refuse tithing until leadership stands down and the issues are dealt with. But they won't, because obedience without question is a core function of Catholicism, or religion as a whole.
If you're part of a biker gang that doesn't do human trafficking, but you kick up to one that does, and you know they're using your money to do it, how clean is your conscience?
chasonreddit t1_jbbw5zt wrote
> Your church should refuse tithing until leadership stands down
We don't tithe.
And who chooses what the leadership should stand down about? You? You are certainly free to donate or not to any cause you wish. Except of course when that is taxes. So The Ukraine for example, you have to support as an American, you have no choice. Church members are at least free to withhold if they wish.
Obedience without question is a problem everywhere at all times. Thank goodness most people do not do this.
thatweirdguyted t1_jbby6bp wrote
My mistake, I misspoke about tithing. I wasn't trying to imply that the Church tithes to the Vatican. I used the wrong word. They do donate through Peter's Pence, but it's voluntary, so I'll drop that issue except to say those who do donate are in fact finding this abuse.
I'm not an American, though I do know what you mean. And politicians routinely get called out for financial mismanagement, and when people get mad enough about it, the people vote someone else in, so it does allow for a change of leadership.
I can't really see a problem with the people demanding their Cardinal or Bishop or whomever standing down for a failure to protect children from sex abuse and cover-ups within the organization. Either individually or collectively. Each person has the right to hinge their participation on this issue if they choose. And many do. The Catholic Church is losing followers in droves because of it. I don't think of it as a "who should be the one who decides the course of the church" because that seems sanctimonious. I look at it from the perspective of not wanting to continue riding a bus that is going nowhere good, and saying "either change course or I'm getting off"
chasonreddit t1_jbc0my2 wrote
I agree 100% with your last paragraph.
> not wanting to continue riding a bus that is going nowhere good, and saying "either change course or I'm getting off
Everyone should choose, and I totally agree that the authoritarianism of the church is antiquated and needs reform. But I belong to many (way too many) organizations I would like to see move in another direction. You are always forced with the question of simply throwing up your hands and saying "well THAT's a lost cause" or staying and trying to effect change. It's a hard choice and in various contexts I have made both choices.
I don't think I have ever belonged to any organization whose cannon I agreed with 100% percent of the time. From Boys Scouts to PTA to city council. You can quit or you can accept the good it does and try to be an agent of change.
kodaxmax t1_jblt5ky wrote
>They don't: molest children, indoctrinate, scam money, or many other things.
That you know of or are willing to admit.
>hey do: get money to poor families, provide counseling in things like alcoholism, family violence, and promote strong families which provide better outcomes for children.
You don't need to brainwash and abuse ignorant and weak people to accomplish those things. Which every church does inherently.
​
The main issue i ahve with everything youve said is, that your not following catholic scripture. All these good things are entirley denounced in even modern bibles. Youve essentially invented your own religion and by doing so made the concept of religion redundant as anything other than a standardized set of morals.
You cant say "im catholic, but i dont command my wife", because by not commanding your wife, your not catholic.
[deleted] t1_jbmch1s wrote
[removed]
suprisecameo t1_jb7ikce wrote
There is absolutely no reason that women of faith shouldn't be able to enter the priesthood. The Catholic church would be much better for it.
AssCakesMcGee t1_jb8dz99 wrote
Joins sexist cult - Complains about sexism in cult.
kodaxmax t1_jbltb5j wrote
There nto a cult, their god is the only true god. All the other religions are a cult. don't you know anything?
drrtynails t1_jb602xj wrote
IMO there are worse things than not being allowed a leadership role in an organization that protects child rapists, have murderered indigenous peoples, and condones domestic violence. I don't understand how anyone can support the catholic church.
Smart-Rip-3733 t1_jb64xaf wrote
How does the catholic church condone domestic violence? You are thinking of Mormons and baptists. The preacher will straight up tell women in "therapy" that they need to submit to their husbands even when he's being a legit POS. I've never heard that from my priest.... (half of us are liberal btw, things will change when the olds die off)
kodaxmax t1_jblsenc wrote
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands (Eph. 5:22-24).
not to mention the whole contraception debate.
Happy4boobs t1_jb6ol5g wrote
69%, weird number.
Trelefor t1_jb5oc7c wrote
If you're sick of the church go protestant and save yourself the trouble of trying to fix something held together with duct tape and patriarchal hierarchy
Smart-Rip-3733 t1_jb64la4 wrote
Protestants have problems with sex abuse and certainly have a patriarchal hierarchy. (unless you mean the Unitarians, they are extra cool)
AnybodySeeMyKeys t1_jb3e6rp wrote
I just don't understand the allegiance to the Catholic church.