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Rosebunse t1_jb3sdhs wrote

You know, you can believe in God and not organized religion


SYLOH t1_jb452kc wrote

Or believe in God, take advantage of the structure of organized religion, just not the Catholic Church.
People have been sick of the Catholic Church for centuries and have been doing something about it since 1517.
I'm an atheist, and even being an organized theist has better options.


GoldenRamoth t1_jb58ubw wrote


Theism isn't the issue. Creating power structures that get abused has always been the issue.

Creating systemic accountability is incredibly hard.


Jampine t1_jb5hori wrote

But wouldn't it basically be impossible to merge theism with accountability?

There's no definitive proof that anyone has spoken to, heard or even seen any devine entity, so the entire system is basically built on hearsay.

And because of that, it's impossible to police, since everyone's argument about how it should be run has the same amount of evidence (zero).


Smart-Rip-3733 t1_jb6333x wrote

The impossibility of policing is due to the concentration of power. Organizations with access to children often have the problem of child sex abuse. You see this with or without "god" in the mix.


Feraltrout t1_jb5oeq4 wrote

That's the part that grinds my gears, accountability should very easy but there is always some excuse for the greed


TheRealVillain666 t1_jb5r9kn wrote

There's a reason the Puritans fucked off to the americas, they were whinging about being persecuted for not being able to persecute others.

It's just that we got tired of their shit in the 16th century.


wewora t1_jb7etej wrote

Most followers don't want that. They want to tell themselves they are good people because their butts touch a pew once a week, they say specific words, perform useless rituals, and occasionally talk about religion. Because that doesn't take any effort or sacrifice. They don't want to use religion to become better people or make the world a better place. It's all about how religion benefits themselves.

Because then they can spend all their time outside of church worrying about how much more money they can get, how many more vacations they can go on, how big/fancy a house they can afford, what else they can do to entertain themselves, boost their ego, and serve their vanity, all while telling themselves they're actually exceptionally good people just because they slapped a label on themselves and go to a specific place once a week - unless they're on vacation, of course.

And obviously, telling themselves they are better than others or trying to force rules that they themselves don't follow. It's amazing how they will only talk about religion and how wonderful it is to be part of that religion...even though it hasn't influenced them to become better people yet. Just gotta start converting (because it doesn't take any effort or sacrifice), but definitely don't need to do any volunteer work or donate to any charities. No no, it's all about the words and low effort rituals.


Rosebunse t1_jb7idlb wrote

I don't know, I think it's more than that. People want to know that life has meaning and purpose. And these big churches provide that.

Take this story. I can't stop crying let it, I don't understand it. I'm mad at God and the universe. But when you add organized religion to it, it turns it into something else. You can blame the Devil or say there was some greater purpose here. Or you can loon smugly and say that this senseless tragedy could never happen to you.


wewora t1_jb7jada wrote

I think religious people are more likely to think that it could never happen to them, because God is protecting them, or because they think they are good people and bad things don't happen to good people, and if it does, then they tell themselves it will all turn out fine eventually. Because they cannot cope with the reality that bad things can happen to anyone for no reason, it's all just shitty luck. What kind of benevolent god would let his own creations suffer like this? Surely if he had a plan, the plan would be that someone would come along and find the toddler, not let it starve to death. Why would a just and all knowing god, allow innocent babies to be born with cancer? Because based on religion, he himself chose to make them that way.

When I hear about terrible, senseless things happening, I don't loom smugly. I shudder and think that it could happen to me.

Edit: I don't have anything against religion. There's a miniscule number of people who actually use religion to try to become better people. There's also a small amount of people who join religion because it brings them comfort and community, which is fine too so long as they understand that just being part of a group does not make them good people.

But the vast, vast majority of people want to use religion to benefit themselves, and/or to control and worsen the lives of others. I have a friend who talks such a big talk about how religion is so important to her, how her relationship with god is so important to her, regularly posts things about her church. I have never, ever heard her talk about doing volunteer work or supporting a charity. Ever. And when it came time to do what was best for others during the pandemic, to live humbly and stay home, you know, the entire actual points of the religion? Well, she decieded that having a large wedding in 2020 and then multiple vacations were actually what was most important to her. I guess all those years of giving up chocolate for half of lent just wasn't enough to prepare her for actually doing god's work. But gosh she is just so religious!


Rosebunse t1_jb7l00v wrote

I think that's why I'm mad at God. It can happen to me. It can happen to all of us. God works in mysterious ways and all that. There is a greater plan but that doesn't mean we're going to like our place in it.

And when I bring this up in church or with religious people, dear God do they hate me for it.

That poor little boy. All I can think of is how he spent his last moments on Earth wondering why his father wasn't helping him, wasn't picking him up and getting him ready for their day or feeding him. It's all I can think of. No one was being cruel there, the dad just died. His family called within a reasonable amount of time, really. No one was being cruel here.

I can't stop crying. I have been crying about it all day.


wewora t1_jb7lofy wrote

My advice would be to use those feelings to do some good in the world. Go volunteer at a food bank or a crisis center. Help someone who is still suffering. And keep doing it. Regardless of if god or an afterlife exists, at least you'll know you did something in this life to make things better for others.


kodaxmax t1_jblqzw3 wrote

not a christain god. if the old testament is to belived he would have personally dropped metorites on all the people making him look bad or gave their children the plague or something by now.

A modern utopian christain god wouldn't have let these things happen at all.


ackermann t1_jb6q78n wrote

True. Although, if you’re going to reject the religion of your parents and family, that you were raised with, that opens a rather overwhelming choice about which other god you’re going to choose. There are probably thousands to pick from, different gods that humans have come up with over the centuries.

I suppose you could simply accept that god exists, but that humans don’t/can’t know anything about him/her, the “spiritual but not religious” route that’s now popular. Don’t subscribe to any particular interpretation of god. But this is probably less comforting, less appealing to many, who would prefer a more personal knowledge of god?

The god that your family raised you with, often comes with what feels like very compelling evidence: that most of your friends, family, and people you’ve come to greatly respect, all seem to agree on this particular god/religion


Rosebunse t1_jb71qzj wrote

I read this today and now I just...why? God why? There is not even any point.


Electrical_Parfait64 t1_jb7a4bv wrote

God has a plan even if we don’t understand it


Rosebunse t1_jb7e8ah wrote

I get that but still. And not believing in God just makes me feel worse. It's not like there was even anything malicious about this. The dad just had a heart attack and the baby starved.


mvanvrancken t1_jb8b5pe wrote

Yes, BUT - then you're just basically inventing a god that you like. It's possible that ALL of the religions are wrong, but I find it even more probable that your personal opinion on gods would be even wronger.


Rosebunse t1_jb8bbqz wrote

Dude, I accidentally read the worst story I possibly could today. My God isn't benevolent and good and doesn't grant me wishes. I think I'm probably right on this one.


mvanvrancken t1_jb8c4ki wrote

There is an astonishingly high chance that there is absolutely nothing at all that one could call a "god". It's an entirely fabricated concept.

On a side note, sorry about the story you read. I've certainly seen some day ruiners.


Rosebunse t1_jb8e0y0 wrote

I guess I am not ready to not believe. Plus, I have found that even without God, atheists ask the same questions. They try and find patterns and reasons too.


mvanvrancken t1_jb8er2g wrote

Yup, we’re human too! Patterns is what we do, sometimes to outrageous effect.


Rosebunse t1_jb8fdv7 wrote

I mean, look at eugenics, even the Holocaust had a weird atheist bent to it. Even without God, people want to believe that their suffering matters or they can fix things.


mvanvrancken t1_jb8fuxw wrote

You're kidding, right? Gott Mit Uns (God With Us) was the motto of the Reich. Hitler gained support from the Catholic Church and steadfastly argued that Germany was a Christian nation, and willed by God to pursue the purification of Germany.


tacoTig3r t1_jb4y060 wrote

That does not sound very christian (profitable), where's the point (power) in that?