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GerogBrimsy t1_iuul8pk wrote

Is it strange that firefighters get unpaid suspension for misconduct, but police get paid vacation for much, much worse. . I'm very confused

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Edacitas t1_iuvds5e wrote

You misunderstand. They declared her dead without killing her. Police would have emptied their mags into her making sure she was dead. The firefighters messed up by NOT killing her.

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Hazzamo t1_iuvxx2w wrote

BANG BANG BANG

STOP RESISTING!!!

23

sprint6864 t1_iuwogtj wrote

This is sad, because that happened with the cop who tazed a man before unloading her gun into his back

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Hazzamo t1_iuwp34g wrote

I thought it was because she pulled out her pistol by mistake

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sprint6864 t1_iuwpssc wrote

That was a different incident, but also doesn't hold up to scrutiny when you realize the taser is on the opposite side to prevent that mistake and don't have anywhere near the same feel/weight

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jagdpanzer45 t1_iuumszp wrote

Simple: firefighters don’t have a union. Or, at least, theirs is nowhere near as strong as the police union.

Edit: turns out firefighters do have a union, but the second sentence still stands.

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LordAlfrey t1_iuvoh54 wrote

Yet corporations want to convince you that unions are bad and only take your money. Look at cop salaries and benefits then say that again.

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sylendar t1_iuw7mmi wrote

>firefighters don’t have a union

You could have spent like 5 seconds googling this, seriously what is wrong with you

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jagdpanzer45 t1_iuxtyw5 wrote

Did you not see the second sentence? I might not have googled, but you didn’t even read the next few words.

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Zenmedic t1_iuvue6w wrote

Firefighters do have a union, and it isn't a small one. IAFF would represent them as they are paid firefighters.

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Chris_90_TO t1_iuwhe73 wrote

Unions are for coal mines and slaughter houses, why do we still have unions for 'modern public service professions'...

−9

jagdpanzer45 t1_iuwj0ek wrote

Unions are for workers to negotiate with their bosses. They’re for all workers.

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Chris_90_TO t1_iuwjx7w wrote

I understand that, but they also add a burden to the employer and customer. I see unions as necessary to protect basic rights and safety, but we have laws for that, so unions are really just looking at salaries and benefits. That's a human resource responsibility. A good employer will provide good benefits and salary to attract and keep good employees. An employer that has to deal with a union has to provide good benefits and salary for all mediocre employees.

−5

jagdpanzer45 t1_iuwkv73 wrote

Historically, almost every advancement for workers has been made by unions. Why should workers trust the law when corporations have much more sway over the people making those laws? Why shouldn’t workers join together to protect their own interests?

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Chris_90_TO t1_iuwl84a wrote

Why should the tax dollars of Denver residents go to mediocre firefighters? (that are protected by a union)

−5

jagdpanzer45 t1_iuwlg8s wrote

Because they do their jobs? Because fires being allowed to spread is bad for the community? Because even a ‘mediocre’ firefighter is still fighting fires and saving lives?

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Chris_90_TO t1_iuwmhgv wrote

Anyway my understanding of the article is at the police and the firefighters were all incompetent and they get to hide behind their union. If society keeps mediocracy around we will continue to be a mediocre society.

0

jagdpanzer45 t1_iuwomld wrote

Incompetence and mediocrity are two very different things. If you’re mediocre you’re still doing your job. If you’re incompetent you’re not doing your job. These firefighters were horribly negligent. The police officer, however, was incompetent.

In the case of the union, these firefighters are getting protections because of the principle that everyone deserves a “day in court”. They’re getting a second chance to not fuck up, but should they fuck up again any time within the next five years they will be fired.

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immibis t1_iv4w5vo wrote

Spoiler alert: none of the employers are "good employers"

And there aren't competing fire departments

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Chris_90_TO t1_ivgr6md wrote

I've never thought about that... there are no "competing fire departments" 🤔 other cities will have other fire departments though, but not always reasonable for people to move far for jobs.

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IGotNoStringsOnMe t1_iuwchxe wrote

The LT got over 300 hours of unpaid suspension, two rank demotion and 5 years of probation during which they're ineligible for promotion and if they fuck up *at all* they are fired. The other guy lost his EMT cert also.

The (former) lietenant is a 22 year department veteran. Their career is basically over because they trusted the word of the cop instead of doing their jobs for themselves.

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nunziavaer543210 t1_iuurmns wrote

police union has much more significant resources and deep pockets, not to mention they also have DA backing them.

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howlrunner_45 t1_iuvib2f wrote

Police misconduct is a feature, not a bug. The police protect property and each other.

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FlaLawDog t1_iux82p0 wrote

That's because when people finally get fed up with being robbed by their crooked politicians and civil order breaks down, it's the cops who our "leaders" hope will protect them and their overly-privileged, spoiled brat spawn from a furious public.

2

marigolds6 t1_iuwemsk wrote

It is because the paid suspension of the police officers happens while they are still under investigation. This unpaid suspension is a punishment after the investigation has been completed. Most likely these firefighters were put on paid suspension during the investigation as well.

−2

kevinds t1_iuujabi wrote

TIL: Doctors can declare people dead they haven't seen.

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HappyFishDota t1_iuv5n6u wrote

Doctors aren't gonna drive out to every corpse that gets called in. 99.999% this is a total non-issue and only sheer and utter incompetence leads to that being an issue. It's why only EMS makes the call to the doctor - they're trained to identify the difference between 'dying' and 'dead'.

−23

SomeManagement808 t1_iuvesbm wrote

Speak on things you actually know my guy. This is not even close to accurate. 99.9999% chance you made this shit up

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KrippledElephan t1_iuvk2ed wrote

Literally 😂😂. I currently work as an EMT in Colorado we are literally told to never bring in a dead pt and to work them on scene and once reasonable measures of life saving measures have been taken we are allowed to call it and end life saving measures. We are not legally pronouncing them dead but we are stopping life saving efforts. This dude has literally 0 idea wtf he was talking about

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sterfri99 t1_iuw5jbn wrote

Bro, you can both be right depending on where you work. I’m a medic, and we bring in dead pts if the doc is in the mood. Pulseless vtachs and vfibs usually end up getting transported. Asystole almost never. Sometimes PEA. Stop and remember for a second that America is a massive and diverse place and your experience isn’t the same as everyone else’s. Don’t talk down to him when you’re just as wrong

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SomeManagement808 t1_iv0qti5 wrote

The 99.99% dude talking out his ass isn't in the medical field. He's a cop. And spreading misinformation is his second day job.

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sterfri99 t1_iv1o7t4 wrote

I responded directly to the EMT above me. He’s wrong too but he was more confident about it. We transport dead bodies sometimes

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SomeManagement808 t1_iv2hwcq wrote

how can he be wrong when he is only speaking to what he's told at his place of work in Colorado? he's not speaking for everybody everywhere like officer dumbass is.

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sterfri99 t1_iv2pyzh wrote

“This dude has literally 0 idea wtf he’s talking about” is incorrect because he’s applying his singular experience in Colorado to someone working elsewhere under different protocols. We transport dead bodies in my state. The guy I responded to said that’s not what happens. He’s objectively wrong and I called him out on it as a higher level of care provider. In my area, doctors pronounce the patient 99.99% of the time. If someone works in a different system where things are done differently I wouldn’t tell him he’s wrong

0

CriusofCoH t1_iuvfqyv wrote

As a former EMT-C, I can tell you: we were specifically trained and told we could NOT declare anyone dead except in two cases: head detached from body, or evident rot. Anything else was a working code until the hospital took over.

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Noname_left t1_iuvynqg wrote

Please stop doing this. Not every person needs to be brought in.

−12

CriusofCoH t1_iuw01tl wrote

And that leads us right back to the OP. Gonna err on the side of "maybe they're alive" and the ever pragmatic "how about we avoid a lawsuit".

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SomeManagement808 t1_iv0tdj9 wrote

What part of "specifically trained and told" do you expect them to disregard because of some advice from "NoName" on the internet.

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wombatIsAngry t1_iuxbovs wrote

One of these guys was a certified EMT. It says in the article that his certification was revoked over this. Makes it especially egregious that he neglected to check any vitals.

I personally know a lot of firefighters who have EMT certifications despite having no interest in medicine. They find it super gross. But firefighting is very competitive to get into, and a lot of them get their EMT certification to improve their chances of being hired as firefighters.

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Nazamroth t1_iuvsvkh wrote

"I pronounce you dead"

"Can I get a second opinion?"

"No."

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SoyEseVato t1_iuugult wrote

But why weren’t they relieved of their duties 100%?

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SN0WFAKER t1_iuuvgd0 wrote

Maybe because they're still investigating exactly what happened and why?

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SoyEseVato t1_iuuzuor wrote

They’re not still investigating. Sentences have been handed down.

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Larry_Phischman t1_iuupjsn wrote

Firefighters in Flint, MI left two children to die in a fire back in May.

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ijeanofdreammie t1_iuurop9 wrote

I wish I could get declared dead. No more debt, my kid gets my life insurance , and I’d be freeeeeee!!!

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Hazzamo t1_iuvy4qa wrote

Spending a year dead is a popular tax dodge

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Seeking-Something- t1_iuwp5rh wrote

Wow. Those are significant penalties. Such a different response when compared to police department negligence.

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[deleted] t1_iuwusdm wrote

Our place has to print the rhythm shown to send to the dr before it’s pronounced.

On the other hand, I know rural medics will let volunteer fireman cancel them. There is nothing wrong with relaying information but most volunteers around here don’t have much if any medical training

The dr on the phones trust the ambulance crew to do their job. It’s unfortunate that these two were just being lazy

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peensteen t1_iuz8tpo wrote

She should get her own religion! She was dead, then was resurrected, as a millionaire! Her lawyer will be along shortly, Pontius.

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Imaginary-Voice1902 t1_iuwwwt2 wrote

Shouldnt the doctor that pronounced her dead be the person at fault here?

0

jackal3004 t1_iuxp374 wrote

No. It was reasonable for him to assume that EMS did their job properly and actually assessed the patient. I don’t live in the states but it is perfectly normal here (UK) for ambulance crews to “pronounce life extinct” (make a decision to stop any resuscitation efforts) and then phone the doctor to issue a legal death certificate, and I’d imagine American EMS agencies have a similar process.

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Imaginary-Voice1902 t1_iuxrnmo wrote

In the US they can if it’s blatantly obvious that they are dead. Like if they are decapitated or something extreme but at some point they have to get a doctor or the medical examiners office to take a look.

1