No surprises.

You all wouldn’t believe what some buildings charge per month for a 3 bedroom in midtown.

Unbelievable smh

CNBC is absolute bullshit with that report.
Actual data is showing PEOPLE ARE NOT RETURNING FROM THE PANDEMIC.
You know what's keeping rents high?
COLLUSION.
Landlords have been using proprietary software to set prices in real time.
It's called RealPage and they're already being investigated by the DOJ.
https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-realpage-rent-doj-investigation-antitrust

Also landlords' warehousing' units.

Here's a deep-dive that refutes the influx of 'people returning from the pandemic.'

https://www.curbed.com/2023/01/nyc-real-estate-covid-more-apartments-higher-rent.html

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What REALLY pisses me off more is how all these media outlets are like 'RENTS ARE SKYROCKETING THIS IS INSANITY!!!!!!!!' and then none of them bother to fucking do ANY investigation whatsoever, Just assholes in badly fitting suits and glasses pontificating and basically whining about it like 'WTF is going on nYC iS cRazyToWn!!!!!'

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Landlords will keep prices as high as they can. That’s literally their “job”. They can’t make more money by providing better service as they don’t provide a service. They just set the price as high as possible. They don’t need software to do this, there will always be a demand for housing so they can set the price as high as they want and eventually someone will bite. The only solution is to get rid of landlords.

That’s 1k cheaper than a typical shelter bed packed in a homeless shelter in NYC (which the city pays more than 5k per month per bed in long term contracts).

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The curbed article is an opinion using the Postal Service's Change of Address Requests - which the author even admits has problems. It's almost as if he picked out part of this report:

https://www.nyc.gov/assets/planning/download/pdf/planning-level/nyc-population/population-estimates/understanding-current-population-trends-in-nyc.pdf

And then ignored everything else that went against the idea that the population is falling. I found this bit particularly fascinating:

>And I spent a long time trying to make sense of data from the New York City Water Board, which shows that the amount of waste treated by the city’s processing plants jumped in 2021. (Maybe everybody had shit their pants when they found out how much their rent was going up?) But it turns out those plants treat not just human waste but stormwater too, and 2021 was rainier than usual. At least I think that’s the reason — the Water Board quit returning my emails after a while.

So the Waterboard is treating more waste, but he dismisses it as just more rain. Did he try to speak to an third party to make sense of the data? Or did he just not want to make sense of the data?

Calling moving companies doesn't really help much either because of course people aren't generally going to call local NYC moving companies if they're moving into NYC from elsewhere. Rather they'd do that if they're moving out and use one local to them for moving into the city.

I'm not saying that the report on CNBC is right. I'm just saying the curbed article is also ridiculous.

It’s funny to me that you are blasting CNBC for this report while uncritically accepting a Curbed story that asserts people didn’t come back to the city by citing USPS change of address filings, which are virtually meaningless as a measure of short-term population shifts.

Does anyone who lived through 2020 honestly believe there was not a massive influx of people back into the city in 2021 and 2022? Did you experience what it was like to try to rent an apartment in summer 2021?

Price fixing is always an issue but the idea that surging demand isn’t a major contributing factor here is ludicrous

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Asking rent on vacant apartments.

Is this happening also outside the US?

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Genuine question — I live outside of the city but I work here… Are people really making enough money to afford this? I’m sure some people do, but it just seems so freaking high. Like why do people subject themselves to that?

Manhattan*

I just feel sad that almost everybody won’t be able to truly anything . I hardly was able to buy a 1br apartment in Hackensack, just a few minutes away from nyc. But eventually trying to own a full sized house. But it seems very hard to achieve , unless I move even farther

I mean , unless you’re some big shot tech guy or business person, affording anything decent in midtown without government assistance is basically impossible .

How long is your commute?

A working couple could easily afford this on Manhattan midtown salaries. Not many people living on their own though.

30 mins

So are we saying both partners are bringing in like $100-$150k? I get it, it’s just wild to me. I know plenty of people who do well for themselves but then I also know some people who don’t and that disparity is just wild to me

So what - Hoboken? LIC? All of those are expensive too. Are you coming from immediately over the bridge?

We moved to the West coast last year, but the savings of living outside of Manhattan were very quickly eaten up by a dogshit commute

While also not really saving much.

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I’m being vague for the internet’s sake but yeah roughly. I’m coming from up north. Tolls not bad, sometimes I take the train. I’m paying around $2k a month for a 1 bedroom. I really don’t mind my commute, and seeing this huge jump in rent for living down in the city makes me feel like it’s worth the commute.

Well said. I love this city and love working here, but that bums me out sometimes.

Yeah if a couple is making 150k each they could afford 4k rent fairly easily and maybe even save. There are many couples like this out there.

I think it's tough because these rents are exorbitant and we need to build housing, but there are many very well paid and wealthy people in this city.

4K rent is a paycheck (after taxes) for someone making $150k

If anything “decent” is what’s listen on zillow even a big shot tech guy is going to think long and hard about those prices. Unless you’re paying a grandfathered rent you’d need to be in the top of your field before mudtown prices will seem “reasonable”.

It feels like everyone living in midtown is in the fields of tech, law, finance, or a doctor.

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People are just looking for rage porn to find someone to blame for their rent

Welcome to the highest demand market in the entire world lol

They could but sometimes it's difficult to ascertain. Their take-home pay could cover rent, but maybe they are not maxing out their 401(k)/403(b), IRA, etc.

I know a lot of my friends are not saving for retirement since the bulk of their pay goes to cover rent, utilities, and food.

Yeah that’s what I suspected. It’s scary how many people are in huge credit card debt too and you’d never know it.

Least fascist redditor here

but the avg can be really really wild. Some Lux places might be throwing this off

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They're paying half (or over half) of their salary to a property management company.

I’m always torn between “people make stupid money” and “people are stupid”

And yall really say there isnt a housing bubble. Lol okay

Apartments.com (CoStar) also has a similar system. All these companies are crooks

The housing lottery raised the monthly rents this year as well. I saw listings for upwards to 3K in my salary range. That doesn’t equal 30% of my yearly salary so I’m not sure how that’s considered affordable housing.

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150k after benefits is about 7k a month

A little bit more than a pay check bimonthly after taxes, insurance. Its doable but I dont see why someone would voluntarily put themselves in that situation

I work at an investment bank in Midtown Manhattan. I don’t think any of the senior people in my department are living in Manhattan at this point. Even the MD lives in like Astoria in Queens.

No offense but I'm in queens, 15 mins from midtown and $1640/mo for a one bedroom. Rent stabilized been here since 2011. To also have to pay for a car....yeesh.

No offense taken at all. But getting a rent stabilized place is key. Not everyone has that luxury

The housing doesn't just need to be there. It needs to be moderated somehow. Tax the fuck of of big landlords and management co's. MURDER the airbnb market.

The wreckless trickle down profiteering is a huge problem. I've seen buildings where the rats were calling in 311 complaints and it was $3k a month in Brooklyn. At this point your better off trying to figure out how to buy something because your paying the same amount monthly.

Damn

This is median, not as affected by high end apartments compared to mean

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Hrm, I sort of fell into it and not sure I'd call it a "luxury" just a native New Yorker who legit ear to the ground of friends apt buildings and what opens when.

Tech nerd, lawyers, or Doctors would not even be able to afford the apartments I’m talking about.

We should convert those into luxury condos too.

Can someone who pays this sort of rent (and higher) and has been doing so for years explain why they don't just buy a house in the outer boroughs? A friend of mine recently bought a house in the Bronx and their mortgage comes out to about $4K a month.

being a renter is crazy ☠️

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What's with Victor Von Strangle?

$4,000 median rent in Manhattan not the entire NYC. Manhattan is expensive because of high demand. Clickbait title, outrage just sells.

> Tax the fuck of of big landlords and management co's. MURDER the airbnb market.

You can always tell when someone doesn’t have a basic understanding of economics and the result is a post like that. A tax to make housing more affordable, genius!!! Educated people, even those that could avoid having their knuckles drag on the sidewalk, would say increase the supply, but not this poster. Amazing stuff!

"Sort of fell into it" is called getting lucky. Not everyone has the luxury to fall into units that everyone else in the building has to subsidize.

Got a mortgage in 2020. I pay less and have way more space. No landlord to deal with other than myself.

shelters include a host of social services. it’s not just a bed.

It's getting wild. Just gave up my apartment since I'm not usually in the city much anymore, I just grab hotels when I'm in town now.

I pay a good bit less than $4k but live in a nice high rise (not in Manhattan). I enjoy living in a more central location and don’t want to deal with the things you have to with a house. I enjoy the views and amenities and having a doorman feels more secure (even if it’s just an illusion). It’s also nice almost never having packages stolen.

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if both are making 150k they can afford way more than 4k a month on rent.

They do that for taxes. They still live here

Here on a temporary basis and I pay 3500 a month to live 15 mins walk from work, wouldn’t have it any other way

Yes. This is nothing compared to all the people buying 1M houses all cash.

They said paycheck, not monthly pay. Effective tax rate for $150k is going to be 34.57%. One paycheck is going to be for every two weeks for most people.

$150,000 / 26 * .6543 = $3774.81

Stupid people can make stupid money.

I got lucky. Why doesn't everyone else get lucky too?

Because some people value time more than equity.

And that’s a whole other issue. People living here for 180 days per year to avoid contributing to the tax base and then others just cheating by reporting their address as elsewhere but spending 100% of their time in nyc.

I know 3 high income people (300,000+ salary) that have done that, where they report living in low or no income tax state because they own homes there, but spend nearly 100% of their time in nyc paying rent. It’s something they can do with their employer because they’re remote and only come into the office a couple days per month.

>Does anyone who lived through 2020 honestly believe there was not a massive influx of people back into the city in 2021 and 2022?

I know one entity that doesn't believe that; the census. It shows that population in summer 2021 was 400,000 down on April 2020.

Demand to live in NYC is depressed, likely temporarily, and right now we're losing more people than we're gaining.

I totally understand why people will do a ton of mental gymnastics to avoid accepting this fact, but it is what it is.

We like it here. That's all that matters.

>So the Waterboard is treating more waste, but he dismisses it as just more rain. Did he try to speak to an third party to make sense of the data? Or did he just not want to make sense of the data?

There's a reliable third-party that's already confirmed his claim that NYC population was off a cliff even in the back half of 2021: The government census says NYC's population was down 400,000 in July, compared to April 2020.

I get why people don't want to accept it, but it's right there in black and white.

Oh also…maybe building more

I believe this is assuming nothing going towards 401k, which someone making 150 is likely maxing out.

And that makes a lot of sense given how covid hit this city. A LOT of people that could, left. The question is whether the population rebounded in 2022. There are a lot of indicators that it has and that would explain the increase in rents. It could be collusion using software or some combination of factors. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to definitively say that the population has stayed depressed when there is conflicting data and we know the Census PEP has consistently under estimated.

no, we really dont make enough for this and many folks have multiple roommates or straight up live at home with family.

an investment banker, google software engineer, or (at least less equal comparison) big law associate will average 200k a year in their first 3 years out of college/law school.

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Shit ton of people make 400k and up on one salary. Personally I know many IT and finance people, but I’m guessing other fields pay that well, thinking of doctors and lawyers.

Doesn't help when the only apartments being built are all luxury apartments. Supply and demand don't really apply in NYC because the demand from wealthy transplants to live in NYC will always be there. There's barely any nice 1 bedrooms in Manhattan for under $3500

This is what I've always wondered. I live with my significant other in a good enough 1 bedroom that was a covid deal in Manhattan and we've been lucky enough where our rent has only gone up $250 total over the past 2 going on 3 years. Who are these people living in 1 bedroom apartments that are $4000+? There seemingly can't possibly be that many people making that much money in NYC, right?

Hoboken and LIC are pretty similarly priced to Manhattan but you do get more for your money

These headlines are clickbait. The vast majority of Ny'ers aren't paying this. This is the median of new leases signed in Manhattan. Most people have been in their apts a while and most people don't live in Manhattan. I pay 2k per month and live alone in Brooklyn.

I'm not saying this carries no information value but what it says is mostly about newer high end buildings in Manhattan.

I think you're confusing stabilized and controlled. A huge fraction of the buildings in NY are stabilized b default. If you rent a stabilized building now you're gonna pay market rate, and the rent's gonna go up 3/4 percent annually. In a couple years you'll probably be below market, but not that far below market. It's really only gonna be way below market if you've been there 20 years. But it's not hard to get at all.

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Well if it's a couple there's a lot of people. Even if not, there are plenty of people in tech and finance.

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slight adjustment - most people get paid twice a month so there are 24 pay periods in the year, not 26

Usually twice a month but those magical months when you get 3 checks

As an Arizonan, this cost is astronomical to me.

I had to double-check, but the plurality of workers (45.7%) get paid biweekly. 18% get paid semimonthly.

What do you do? I work in tech and would like to be able to afford that.

How much do you make a year?

Or saving for a down payment, or investing, or any number of other things besides spending upwards of 1/2 your monthly income on rent in a neighborhood with many other, cheaper apartments and neighborhoods nearby.

That’s an estimate from 18 months ago. Rents peaked a full year after that

I know, but you said summer 2021 was difficult to rent an apartment. Given population hadn't recovered, that clearly wasn't due to demand, but artificially limited supply.

I call BS, even from Long Island city it’s 20 minutes door-to-door to midtown. You’re not finding 1 bedrooms at that price even deep into Flushing

Yeah, a 3min intake “medical” screening on an uninsured person in a shelter would be the most profitable 3min of any doctor in the city.

Meanwhile, NYC shelters are more deadly than Riker’s.

That's not how things work.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/theres-no-such-thing-luxury-housing/618548/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-05/what-adding-luxury-housing-does-to-rents-elsewhere

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/affordable-housing-debate/

https://www.fullstackeconomics.com/p/how-luxury-apartment-buildings-help-low-income-renters

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/14/upshot/luxury-apartments-poor-neighborhoods.html

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because nobody paying 4k/month for a 1BR in manhattan wants to live in the bronx

I'm in Woodside- lirr to penn station is 9 minutes.

Don't want to sound cynical, but those articles were written by luxury buildings. Those are years old, and it doesn't seem to have any actual proof, just theories floated.

>Trickle-down housing policy is a farce. In a highly speculative housing market, increasing the supply does not automatically reduce housing costs. When cities permit more market-rate development, developers build more market-rate housing, because that is what will yield the highest return on investment. Especially when labor productivity lags in the construction sector, the profitability of housing production depends on rising rents. Rents are set not based on the quality of a home but on whatever the market will allow. This is why most “luxury” housing is so ugly and poorly built.

> “Affordability” is an abused concept in development deals and local policy-making. Developers receive public subsidies and tax abatements to build market-rate apartments, sometimes with conditions to set aside “affordable” units. Those conditions rarely create truly affordable housing, because the definitions of “affordable” have more to do with what is affordable for the developer than with what is affordable for a working family. Affordability standards are determined by “area median income,” but the area isn’t a neighborhood; often it’s a county or a metro area, and the incomes aren’t limited to tenants but also include those of property owners.

From the linked Nation article.

as a nyer its astronomical to most of us here lol

I think his point is to essentially "break" the big landlords that own dozens if not hundreds of properties and play games like leaving half of them empty to artificially inflate rents. Capitalism is awesome ONLY when it leads to aggressive competition. I really wish this country understood decades ago that capitalism was only so amazing because it led to competition. It's actually competition that leads to amazing outcomes, capitalism is just a mechanism to get there.

If all the apartment unit owners owned at most 2-3 units there would be insane competition and none of those owners would ever want to leave a unit vacant. The competition with thousands of other owners would lead a race to the bottom for rent prices (while easily still staying very profitable due to NYC demand) it would be a true buyer/seller equilibrium.

Right now you have a dozen big landlords conglomerates that lazily all move in the same direction and hardly compete at all with each other.

If you look at 60s rents in this city where the environment was infinitely closer to the ideal with almost all landlords being small owners with just a couple properties and then adjust for inflation........you can easily see that the rents for the city would be cut in half. All while landlords would still make a killing.

So yes, a huge part of the solution here would be to find a way to break up the current landlord situation.

Agree. I personally like to pay everything, including bills, utilities and any liabilities with that one (of two) paychecks.

Even better if you’re able to max out your 401k, pay all your bills and have that second check still available.

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Crazy

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In Manhattan?

It's because people don't want to live in the Bronx. You're so far outside of the city that it might as well be the suburbs.

Also worth pointing out that that's the median rent of listed/vacant apartments, the median rent people are actually paying is way less because so much of the housing stock is rent stabilized and rarely vacant.

There are places in the Bronx that are 30 minutes from Midtown. That seems like a fairly reasonable commute to me.

Half a million new units would definitely lower rent

It doesn't matter if they build luxury units. The people that can afford those luxury units will opt for those units, easing the demand for smaller townhomes. https://escholarship.org/content/qt5d00z61m/qt5d00z61m.pdf?t=qoq2wr

Of course we need to prioritize housing for all, but any housing built is helpful.

$4k in rent is equivalent to like a $650k house outside of the city, so it's not like there's really much of an option either way. You obviously get way more space outside, but people paying that rent for a 1br aren't having kids anytime soon.

Yes, all academics and thinktanks publishing this research are actually luxury builders in disguise. Please feed into more conspiracy theories.

https://www.upjohn.org/research-highlights/new-construction-makes-homes-more-affordable-even-those-who-cant-afford-new-units

https://academic.oup.com/joeg/article-abstract/22/6/1309/6362685?login=false

Just an FYI, if both individuals make $150k and choose to max out their 401k's assuming a 6% match, they'll be taking home between $14-$15k a month.

That's a 20% savings rate already, then you have an additional $10k after rent to live on. Anyone without other debts or obligations making that kind of money should be saving quite a bit.

There are people in this very thread disputing peer-reviewed research because "it's written by luxury housing developers" -- these people are beyond redemption and don't believe in what economists have to say. There's little point in debating tbh

1. Dont live in Manhattan. Prices in outer boroughs are rising. In Southern Brooklyn I can go on Zillow rn and see stuff that's 1600-1800 for a 1 bed room.

2. Have roommates or live with your significant other

3. Make a lot of money which a lot of people in the city do

4. Be lucky enough to have bought property way before

5. Have a big family and buy a house, seen a lot of immigrant families do this

There are parts of the city where you can get a 1 bedroom for 2k or cheaper also. Not everyone lives in Manhattan

Imagine, though, if buildings could write? Would be wild. Almost as wild as developers even accidentally helping middle class renters.
Also, to add, this is NYC. Has rent gotten any better, or easier, anywhere outside of the pandemic?
Someone mentioned 2018 as rents going down or something, but practically, who has it better now?

Last year I made about 205k

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i stand corrected, good looks chief

Has to be the right building, it needs to be Austrian style government controlled housing that we contract out, needs to be fast tracked, set up a special administrative court to hear legal claims and get 200k rent controlled units on the market at cost. This is how we tackle this. The private market isn’t going to fix housing

NYC has a housing shortage. When demand fell in proportion to supply during the pandemic, so did rents.

But from what I can see you don't believe in peer-reviewed research, so I think we can call it a day here.

Of course, I guess I meant we need to increase supply and what you mentioned are some of the key things we can do for that.

Demand fell because of COVID. If there is more supply, it will immediately get filled up. Unless something like COVID happens again. You need a review for that?

No matter how long I look at the title, it doesn't get any easier to fathom. Smh.

It's annoying to know how much space isnt even being used. Like the places are sitting empty for most of the year for years...the only thing that "occupies" is the money invested by the people who just want somewhere to park their cash. Lol I accidentally laughed, but u have to or u will just get more upset.

>If there is more supply, it will immediately get filled up.

... yes, and those people won't be competing with you for existing supply.

Rents peaked once landlords were again able to evict people.

“Tech nerd.” Tech is running all aspects of your life. Us nerds probably deserve some of our perks.

And what would make existing supply drop in price or stay level if existing supply is in demand? What I am saying here is that as long as there is demand, as there is right now, prices will continue to go up. New development will bring new demand, as it has in the past. Covid was an outlier. Prices will continue to rise, people want to be here. Middle class long term renters will get squeezed out. As is tradition.

True but don't use the world easily. It hurts me because I make 50k a year and still live at home.

Sadly not reality

Uh they can and they do? Also midtown isn’t even a desirable location. A family of two professionals can absolutely afford 15k a month in rent.

Try 3x that

shut up man.

Link me all these 45k a month 3br on StreetEasy plz. Thx.

Ask your broker.

I’m not putting our developer’s information on fucking Reddit.

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I earn 250k (net is about half after taxes & 401k), and I feel like an average joe; live in a small 1br, save diligently for a home/family someday. Hope ppl are managing out there, it’s rough

Just keep interviewing for higher paying jobs, taking in more responsibility at work, and working at the level you want to be at

Maspeth, Queens. Right next to trendy Bushwick, Williamsburg, and Greenpoint. They just added citibikes and a trendy wine shop. Only thing missing is coffee spots and beards now.