You must log in or register to comment.

ECK-2188 t1_j9vl9eu wrote

Fuck Dolan.

Taxpayers should file a class action lawsuit if they force us to pay for anything that scumbag wants to milk out of the city.


TonyzTone t1_j9wvhxs wrote

We should’ve done that in 2008 when he was still putting Eddie Curry out there on the court.


LunacyNow t1_j9wmgnt wrote

A lawsuit would have no standing. MSG owns the property. If this is an eminent domain case then the government would need to compensate the owner when taking the property. Just like if the government takes someone's house to pave a new highway on the parcel of land - the govt HAS TO pay the owner of the house fair market value.


>It is another word for condemnation - the right of the government to take private property for a public purpose. Various examples would be to make way for a road or public park, or to provide housing for disadvantaged persons. The United States and New York Constitutions require the government to pay you fair compensation if it takes your property.


ctindel t1_j9wnu60 wrote

Since when has "failing to renew a permit to operate a business" been classified as an eminent domain case? Are there other examples of this in NY case law?


LunacyNow t1_j9wu2qv wrote

The permitting is separate issue allowing them to have more than 2500 patrons in the establishment. It's not clear if they could operate 'normally' w/o that permit, if at all. If the end result of all of this is the state/city gov't forcing a move then this could be eminent domain (thus requiring compensation).


akmalhot t1_j9wnf38 wrote

How do such dumb people get up votes.

All it takes is rich people bad



ECK-2188 t1_j9wnti2 wrote

Not that he’s “rich” dude. It’s that he’s a prick.

There are plenty of rich people who are not.

James Dolan: The Michael Jordan of Douchery


akmalhot t1_j9wo67h wrote

Oh yeah he sucks, absolutely

But you can't just try to end around ekinent domain by not renewing msg permit after all this time.

Now I'm not saying the 8 bil figure is correct but with all the corruption it'll prob cost that much today


ECK-2188 t1_j9wp6y4 wrote

Honestly, all biases aside I hear you.

That would make perfect reasoning if we’re speaking on individual US citizens who are property owners.

Not implying that James Dolan isn’t a US Citizen, but the Dolan’s ownership of MSG had not paid any city property taxes in decades.

The fact they still get subsidized damn near 40+ years is beyond me.


akmalhot t1_j9wppkf wrote

That's idiotic policy , but it's irrelevant

The comparison would be the governed revoking your occupancy permit on your house, and the justifying paying you 40k.for taking rhe raw land since it doesn't have an occupancy permit ..

Dolan sucks , the corruption and expense to do anything in NYC sucks, the fake 5-8 billion dollar number being thrown around is probably ridiculous, I don't know enough to confidently comment.


ECK-2188 t1_j9wqfia wrote

Well in any event, Dolan’s lawyers are the real winners in the this.

They got that retainer bag💰


akmalhot t1_j9wqmsm wrote

The lawyers always win first.

Just like any class action, $10 for the victim.... the cartoons where they cut a slice.if cake and take everything but the slice


ECK-2188 t1_j9wqwd6 wrote

Life really is just one long animated SouthPark episode


akmalhot t1_j9wrtka wrote

I didn't know they did a parody of Megan Markle and Harry.

Really need to see it


HawtGarbage917 OP t1_j9udb63 wrote

The relevant chunk of the piece:

"Michael Rikon, an attorney whose law firm focuses on eminent domain...says said he agreed with MSG’s claim that it’s being singled out, given that MSG owns the property and has successfully operated it.

If the city denied the MSG permit, Rikon said, “Just compensation would be required. Because if they do not grant the special permit, the property becomes worthless. It can’t be used for its highest and best use.”

In 2021, the Empire State Development authority estimated that moving the Garden would cost the public $8.6 billion, including $5 billion to build a new arena."


Pool_Shark t1_j9uvxej wrote

I get having to pay for the land but why would the city be on the hook for a new arena?


shant_jan t1_j9vprjg wrote

because this is america and we love using tax money to build billionaires stadiums ¯_(ツ)_/¯


mojorisin622 t1_j9vubzs wrote

If the city took your house, that you just rebuilt 10 years ago, and was a perfectly fine house, would you sue and make the city build you a new one?


Pool_Shark t1_j9xbygp wrote

Yeah and I’d lose


mojorisin622 t1_j9xf2ek wrote

That's because you won't have an army of high priced lawyers working on your behalf. You can get away with eminent domain with a regular joe's home, but when you start messing with billion dollar corporations, you're going to lose.


Rottimer t1_j9yrss1 wrote

The city granted you a permit to build what you want on this land, but only for X years. You chose to build a house and now want to pretend that the permit wasn't temporary. Everyone will spend money on lawyers, but in the end, you had full knowledge of the situation when building the house.


Ame_No_Uzume t1_j9vvzes wrote

Because James Dolan is a whole bag of unholy words.


thecarlosdanger1 t1_j9wthz2 wrote

Super simplified version - “just” compensation if you force someone to sell that doesn’t want to includes the best possible value of their land + more to get them their asset back.


Pool_Shark t1_j9xc9uv wrote

But that’s not how eminent domain works. It is the gov needs land pays what they claim is fair and good luck


Rottimer t1_j9yrkto wrote

It wouldn't. They'll go through litigation and lawyers will make a shit ton of money, but as long as the Mayor doesn't get in the way, in the end the city will not be on the hook for anywhere near that amount. They chose to build that arena knowing they had a temp permit.


Melodic-Upstairs7584 t1_j9vw7tc wrote

I think this is also relevant:

“Alexandros Washburn, executive director of the Grand Penn Community Alliance, which calls for MSG to relocate, said that 10 years was long enough for MSG to have found a new location and planned a new arena. The complaint of no progress is a “self-inflicted hardship,” he said.

Washburn, a city planner under former Mayor Mike Bloomberg, was among three architects who last month presented their visions for a better Penn Station, all three of which relied on MSG relocating. Around 100 people showed up for their presentation at the Great Hall in Cooper Union.”

I don’t have much of an opinion on whether or not msg should be moved, but this isn’t an issue of eminent domain. No one is asking Dolan to transfer ownership and no one is saying he can’t operate sporting events. MSG has a special permit allowing for increased capacity that lasted for a period of ten years. Dolan wanted the original permit to be permanent because he was aware then, as he is today, that the city could decline to renew it for any reason. If Dolan ever transferred the stadium to a new owner, that entity would also be aware that permits can be revoked, even if they felt it was very likely to be renewed. That would be factored into the sale price, so the value of the property is unaffected.

Not sure why they asked an eminent domain attorney for an opinion. Shaping this as an eminent domain argument is interesting, but a complete non-starter.


vinnizrej t1_j9we8i2 wrote

Inverse condemnation is a government taking.


Melodic-Upstairs7584 t1_j9wo8gk wrote

Fair enough, what valid inverse condemnation claims in NY state have you observed that resulted from the revocation of a temporary permit? I can give you two common circumstances off the top of my head where these claims always fail:

A) I’m a restaurant owner and my liquor license was revoked, my business has been irrevocably damaged and I demand just compensation. These are denied because no business in NY state has an inalienable right to sell alcohol, they receive a permit which can be revoked at any time.

B) I’m a concert / event organizer and my permit to conduct my event was revoked by a county/municipality/etc. My brand is inseparable from the location where said event was held, so I demand just compensation. These are denied because no business in NY state has an inalienable right to host a high-capacity concert, they receive a permit which can be revoked at any time.

Valid inverse condemnation claims have a pretty high bar and involve assets that have been damaged due to material and reasonably unforeseeable changes (i.e an international airport is opened up next to a nature preserve for exotic birds). There were interesting inverse condemnation claims that were filed during the construction of the USA/Mexico border wall by effected property owners, for example.

Not renewing a permit is not a material change of circumstance. The permit is inherently temporary. It has an expiration date, renewal terms, cancelation clauses (I’m assuming).

If James Dolan sold you MSG under the pretense that the permit was guaranteed forever, you would have a valid legal claim against him. The city is under no obligation to renew the permit in perpetuity, therefore there has been no change to the value of the property, therefore no claim.


down_up__left_right t1_ja4ti6a wrote

I will never get over the decision to not pay hard ball with Dolan a decade ago and force him to move right across 8th ave then.

Instead Dolan renovated MSG in its current location directly atop all of the train platforms for the cost it took to build Barclays and then $1.6 billion was spent to build Moynihan in the space across 8th ave where it can't access all the platforms and can only access the end of the platforms it does connect to.


Head_Acanthisitta256 t1_j9v32cz wrote

Let Dolan pay for his new arena if it gets moved. That area is a dump anyway. And so are the Knicks and to a lesser degree the Rangers.


thecarlosdanger1 t1_j9wtou9 wrote

That’s not how it works if you force him out of MSG.

Also for hockey at least it’s a great arena


Head_Acanthisitta256 t1_j9wu4ai wrote

They’re not being forced out though. Their ridiculous lease is up.


thecarlosdanger1 t1_j9x0qlh wrote

I could be wrong but my understanding is that they’re ending the lease and forcing them to sell MSG.


Head_Acanthisitta256 t1_j9x1b63 wrote

No. Their ten year lease expires in July. And the city doesn’t want to renew. The city wants to relocate them somewhere else in midtown.


arthurnewt t1_j9vdugt wrote

Tear that monstrosity down and build a new penn station


lawanddisorder t1_j9yfjub wrote

It's awesome how James Dolan gets to single-handedly fuck up pro basketball, hockey AND Penn Station for all New Yorkers. The system is clearly running flawlessly.


Swoah t1_j9whwz2 wrote

Can’t wait for the Knicks to ask the Nets to play at Barclays while this happens, Nets say know, and we get the NJ or LI Knicks for a few years.


stalkingshadow01 t1_j9weyh7 wrote

Dolan’ll die of old age before getting that money


InternationalBrick76 t1_j9uv9uv wrote

How do people feel about this? Why would they move the arena? I love the current location.


Pool_Shark t1_j9uvztk wrote

Because it’s on top of the busiest train station in the country


Brucehandstrong t1_j9vwuw7 wrote

Why does that make it a bad location?


Arleare13 t1_j9w7hqr wrote

Because it prevents the busiest train station in the county from being expanded to meet current needs, or even maintained at modern standards.


akmalhot t1_j9wnjg0 wrote

So they take it and pay for the eminent domain ? Can't have it both ways


EzNotReal t1_ja7p57e wrote

Why comment when you clearly haven’t even read anything about the situation?


akmalhot t1_ja7qgyu wrote

Uh, what?

They're trying to get around eminent domain value by not issuing their permit, the only major stadium in the city required to have a permit to operate.


EzNotReal t1_ja7qth8 wrote

As if MSG was unaware when they signed the lease what the terms were? They knew this could happen, why should they not have to abide by the terms of the lease?

Don’t really see how what you’re saying is relevant.


[deleted] t1_ja7sagu wrote



[deleted] t1_ja7sjrr wrote



akmalhot t1_ja7tenr wrote

Hey, genius redditor who doesn't know the different between permits and leases knows more than prominent eminent domain lawyers !... Amazing

"Michael Rikon, an attorney whose law firm focuses on eminent domain — cases in which government takes or restricts private property — says said he agreed with MSG’s claim that it’s being singled out, given that MSG owns the property and has successfully operated it.

If the city denied the MSG permit, Rikon said, “Just compensation would be required."


[deleted] t1_j9v6s5v wrote



snappleking124 t1_j9v7h3e wrote

Edmonton Canada vs Manhattan. What could be different ? Cost of labor, cost of permits, construction insurance. Figure all of these are much much more in NYC than Edmonton Canada.


TeamMisha t1_j9wfetf wrote

The entirety of Hudson Yards Phase 1 cost $25 billion and they built something like EIGHT skyscrapers, malls, and the biggest cantilever deck over rail in the world I think. The proposed area where Phase 2 is (to the west) doesn't need the same complex cantilever structure so I kind of agree the cost estimate is insane, I can't see how it should cost almost 1/3 the cost of the entire Phase 1.


cha614 t1_j9vr3u9 wrote

Barclays Center cost $1 billion ten years ago. Even figure with inflation it’s not even close.


ctindel t1_j9wnxs3 wrote

Hey lets bring in some labor from Edmonton then and let them insure it and waive all the permitting fees.


akmalhot t1_j9wnljy wrote

How tf are you comparing Edmonton to the heart of busy Manhattan


[deleted] t1_j9wome9 wrote



akmalhot t1_j9wpap6 wrote

Barclays center in Brooklyn not a top area of it cost 1 billion dollars..there's nowhere near the density in that area or access issues. The land value is not on the same level of pen district.

5 billions probably high, but to even think something in Edmonton has any value on comparison is ridiculous

The bills are spending .1.4 billion on a. Stadium in buffalo ny lol & granted that's absolutely ridiculous.

5 is probably high but most comments here are saying he shouldn't get anything. (him sucking is irrelevant, you can't end around eminent domain )

It would be like the governed saying, we've revoked your occupancy permit for your house , now it's only worth the raw land of 50k, that is what we will pay you for eminent domain


[deleted] t1_j9wqr41 wrote



akmalhot t1_j9wqxpf wrote

You don't know anything about costs in NY it seems.

We spent line 30 million on a staircase for a subway station.... Widening it.


[deleted] t1_j9wsb9p wrote



akmalhot t1_j9wtu05 wrote

Do you know what the cost of 2 city blocka on 7th Ave btw 31-33rd st is?

Hudson yards was cheap land because it was built above train yardsthat was previously unusable land

You're talking about land on top of a station that connects LIRR, NJ transit, and many subway lines together ?


[deleted] t1_j9wu4ad wrote



akmalhot t1_j9wuk66 wrote

5 billions is the land value and air rights alone, buddy.

Are you an expert in land value in manhattan?

Your just saying , OMG BIG NUMBERS

Msg spent well over 1 billion just marginally improving msg btw.

Aside from BIG NUMBERS, and Edmonton, what are you basing your thesis on


[deleted] t1_j9wux53 wrote



akmalhot t1_j9wvb49 wrote

Uh huh. Nice side stepstep of the question..

What are you basing your number on aside from , Edmonton land lol


[deleted] t1_j9wvn70 wrote



akmalhot t1_j9wvzbx wrote

Okay, so how did you arrive at your value of the land and air rights on one of the most exoe sive areas in the world?

And the most exoe sive permitting, licensing, construction hard/soft costs etc


[deleted] t1_j9wx2qj wrote



akmalhot t1_j9wxbfm wrote

The article literally says, 5 billion dollars for the cost to acquire land, not build an arena

How are you definitively arriving that 5 billions dollars is not what it would cost to acquire new land for an arena in the area ?

What does the cost to built an arena in a Canadian city have to do with land value in prime Manhattan ?

The article also says that not one single other arena in the city has been requires to obtain an operating permit (side note)

No pride in how expensive and corrupt the city is, but don't see why we need to let useless comparisons drag on

It sucks that land labor licensing air rights building costs construction are so expensive, but your comparison to an arena in Edmonton is pointless

I still dont understand what that 500 million has to do with the 5 billion dollar cost of land


[deleted] t1_j9wymmm wrote



akmalhot t1_j9x1gw3 wrote

You said that line 9 responses ago..

Your comparison like saying building a house in Pennsylvania cost $120/psf why is this shoe ox apartment selling for $1500-$3000 in NYC.. it .makes no sense.. ironically I happen to be in the middle of PA this wkd, hence the reddit

NYC is an amazing city, there's no doubting that. I've been to Edmonton before lol. Almost Couldn't pay me enough to move there.

You're taking this so personally, it has nothing to do with pride in expense of New York, but your dimbass comparison makes no sense.


[deleted] t1_j9x31gg wrote



akmalhot t1_j9x3tpu wrote

You keep, responding? Despite refusing to acknowledge how pointless your comparison was. Hence why multiple people let you know, lol

Cost to build and land in Edmonton is entirely unrelated to Manhattan. Sorry you can't grasp that .


[deleted] t1_j9x3zsh wrote



akmalhot t1_j9x5mwr wrote

I'm fucked up for pointing out that the cost in city a is not proportionate to the cost for doing so etbing in an entirely different value and regulatory environment ? Lol

You're just upset that no one has agreed w you or something .

Bye, again, for the 10th time ?


sternfan1523 t1_j9wpccs wrote

It’s probably the most valuable piece of land in the world.