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pythonQu t1_j98qbb8 wrote

civic duty my ass. How about employers pay me extra to come into the office to deal with time lost with commute & higher price of meals while I'm in office? Realty office comparing the past 3 years to what happenned on 9/11 is ridiculous.


Monkeyavelli t1_j99l7y2 wrote

Funny how it's always the civic duty of the workers to eat the cost and waste the time of pointlessly coming back into the office. We're all in this together, so clearly these real estate companies should be cutting businesses in their buildings some slack and reducing or freezing rent/mortgage/whatever payments until everyone's back on their feet. We New Yorkers gotta stick together! It's their civic duty, after all.


hereswhatipicked t1_j98xsiw wrote

As if we needed further evidence that many, if not all, landlords are in the figurative sense (and literal) rent-seekers, it’s this whole “woe is us” genre of post-pandemic articles.

When the gold rush ended, Levi Strauss figured out how to sell its wares to the non-miner market, and they didn’t even have the internet then.


Training101 t1_j99fdzy wrote

Civic duty to commute, what a load of shite. Lol!!


philmatu t1_j9b7lu4 wrote

I'll say that during the height of the pandemic my commute (I was in office the majority of it) was a peaceful 25 minutes door to door from LIC to downtown and it was great to get out and kept me active. Now that same commute runs 40-60 minutes and is anything but peaceful and now I would like to be remote more often again. We really need to figure out how to make commutes peaceful and reliable as it's good to get out and contribute to society, even if it is only a few days/week.


ironichaos t1_j982yir wrote

It’s an interesting problem because people want to live in nyc for all it offers. However, it looks like around 50% of office workers have no desire to come back and prefer wfh either in nyc or somewhere else.

I’m curious to see if nyc has staying power to be a world class city because it’s great or was it so popular because that’s where business happened. Now that business has shifted to happening all over the place over zoom will we see a declining population here?

Obviously I get the draw to Miami/Austin/Atlanta/etc. but over the next 10-20 years will those cities continue to grow or will people decide to move back/continue to move to nyc over those other places after graduation.


ehsurfskate t1_j9a9zln wrote

My prediction is that NYC will have the staying power for young people but will lose some for the 45-65 crowd who are already established and looking for a lifestyle arbitrage of living somewhere that has a lower cost of living and working remote most of the time.

For younger people my guess is the NYC draw of things to do, places to eat and experience, the potential of finding a mate and friends and the ability to build their network will persist.


ironichaos t1_j9aes3x wrote

Yeah I think that’s a good prediction. Only time will tell though.


General-Silver-4004 t1_j9d7zxp wrote

You assume young people know they want all that.

When I was in my twenties it took a massive pay raise to convince me to leave the woods which eventually lead to trying new foods, finding a spouse, and having fun (while wasting money on rent).


WideCarnivorousSky t1_j9aiu1h wrote

I am one of the many people who never step foot in the office and choose to live in NYC because it's an awesome city. I don't think I'm super unique in this. Assuming Austin, Miami, etc., somehow supplant NYC for all of its benefits, they will become equally unaffordable and people will move back here.

I think the city will be fine.


IloveSeaFoood t1_j9b85jl wrote

People come to NY for Central Park, museums, shows, clubs etc , not for skyscrapers in midtown

Sure, we will have to get creative and find alternatives for tax revenue/cutting spending but New York as a brand and icon won’t disappear just because the Dunkin’ Donuts on 47th closed


PostPostMinimalist t1_j9842mq wrote

It’s very easy to see this happening. In fact it might already be happening (population estimates are clearly down, but they are also unreliable so definitely not proof).


marketrent OP t1_j97w1pe wrote

Excerpt from the linked content^1 by Aaron Elstein:

>Since the pandemic changed where people work, Manhattan’s office landlords have struggled to come to grips with the changed world.

>This week Vornado Realty Trust CEO Steven Roth reached Elizabeth Kubler Ross’s final stage of grief when he acknowledged the days of workers commuting to the office five days a week are, well, gone with the wind.

>“You can assume that Friday is dead forever,” Roth said. “Monday is touch and go.”

>His epiphany is shared by the CEOs of SL Green Realty and RXR Realty and even Mayor Eric Adams.

>The latest data from Kastle Systems shows 48.6% of New Yorkers have returned to the office.

>Let’s turn back the clock to September 2020, to an interview by Crain’s reporter Natalie Sachmechi with RXR’s Scott Rechler.

>“To me, it’s a civic duty to responsibly come back to work and actively engage in being part of the community,” Rechler said. “I make the analogy that, post-9/11, people didn’t flee and hide in fear of another act of terrorism, even though that risk existed.”


>Roth of Vornado felt the same way in November 2020.

>“For sure, normalcy will return…And I believe return to normalcy will be the order of the day in months, not in years,” he said on an earnings call.

>“Most importantly, we are hearing from all our tenants that Zoom fatigue is real, productivity is now, and CEOs want their employees back in the office.”

>By the spring of 2021, the pandemic was a year old and new workplace habits were hardening into cement. Even so, SL Green’s Holliday said he didn’t see much of a future for hybrid work.

>By November 2021 Roth realized that something had changed.

>“I must admit that our tenants and we are a little frustrated by how long the return to work process is taking,” he said. But there's no doubt that work in office will win over work alone at the kitchen table.”

>Last December [in 2022], New York’s biggest commercial landlord effectively admitted his optimism about return-to-office had been misplaced. “The hybrid work model has persisted far longer than I expected it to,” Holliday said.

^1 Tracking stages of grief for city office landlords, Aaron Elstein for Crain Communications, 15 Feb. 2023,

Further reading:^2

>More than $16B in CMBS loans are coming due for New York City building owners this year, a 30% increase over last year’s $12.7B in mortgage-backed loan maturities, according to Trepp.

^2 NYC building owners face $16B in CMBS loans due in 2023 — The total is 30% higher than last year and some lenders are balking at extensions, Jack Rogers for EagleTree Capital’s GlobeSt., 26 Jan. 2023,


san_serifs t1_j9aay16 wrote

“It’s your Civic duty..” to make sure these commercial landlords make huge profits on rents while they pay little to nothing back in taxes.


snowdrone t1_j9anite wrote

Hilarious.. people often fall for fake patriotism, but this is just too much


kiklion t1_j9f2ond wrote

If it was a different context, I'd argue that the 'Civic Duty' was to work and provide value to your community, not to work 'in the office'. Which I can understand the first part, a society won't work where everyone stays at home all day and the government pays you not to work (as it was said in Sept 2020.)

But 'the market' had a solution to covid infection concerns, which was to enable work from home. So we all got back to contributing to our society while limiting our exposure to each other.


JohnQP121 t1_j9ac3q5 wrote

>“To me, it’s a civic duty to responsibly come back to work and actively engage in being part of the community,” Rechler said. “I make the analogy that, post-9/11, people didn’t flee and hide in fear of another act of terrorism, even though that risk existed.”

This is so cringe-inducing and disingenuous I find it insulting. Vast majority of the people didn't flee because of apathy and it is not that simple if you don't already have a 2nd home somewhere else. Plus 9/11 was not something that we think would happen on a regular basis.


Vizualize t1_j9aczni wrote

These office landlords just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They just need to get out there and learn the new way of working. Heck, maybe even sell a few buildings at a loss for "practice".


IloveSeaFoood t1_j9b7v4z wrote

They should get a second job if they’re low on income


lemonjalo t1_j9dqah8 wrote

They should skip that avocado toast for breakfast at least every third day and try their hand at online surveys for extra income.


Farrell-Mars t1_j9akyza wrote

Convert them to apartments!!!

I don’t want to hear about how it’s hard.

There’s no crying in Capitalism.


joeO44 t1_j9alxsd wrote

Times change. Manhattan used to be a hub for manufacturing then those factory offices turned into lofts and artistic workspaces. Looks like they’ll have to get creative again.


fightwriter t1_j9cj9kr wrote

great point. Any recommended reading on the transition from factory to offices back in the day? Thats fascinating


oreosfly t1_j9duto5 wrote

Yup. Adapt or be left behind. Progress doesn't stop just because it hurts your wallet.


mowotlarx t1_j9a5nvt wrote

>“To me, it’s a civic duty to responsibly come back to work and actively engage in being part of the community,” Rechler said.

What community? There is no valuable "community" in those Manhattan office park neighborhoods. It is not our *civic duty " to enrich private commerical landlords who refuse to innovate or adapt to massive societal change.

I swear to God these people need to get bent.


ZinnRider t1_j97zqx0 wrote

Landlords are parasites.

Another world is possible. Because housing is a human right.


Scout-Penguin t1_j9863yy wrote

>>city office landlords

>housing is a human right.

I see we have reached the stage in reflexive landlord hating where we don't even see the other words around "landlord" before losing our shit.


brownredgreen t1_j9a4jnj wrote

The landlords who suck money from The City arent superior to those who suck money from residential tenants.


san_serifs t1_j9abuu7 wrote

I want my free UES apartment overlooking Central Park. It’s my fundamental right.


ZinnRider t1_j9aq1sn wrote

It’s not about your right to get the biggest, fattest piece of chocolate mousse after dinner.

It’s about everyone at minimum at least getting a seat at the table to be fed.

The small minority of your ilk can fight over cake. We simply want a square meal. And feel that’s the least we can ensure as a civilized society.


bkornblith t1_j9a5p4q wrote

Leaches dying is good.


tiregroove t1_j97zgbw wrote

>Rechler wasn’t so sure anymore, though.
“The genie is out of the bottle,” he told the Financial Times in July 2021. “And so what is going to come back is clearly going to be different from what existed before. We are all going to have to adapt.”
By November 2021 Roth realized that something had changed.


SolitaryMarmot t1_j9cij6m wrote

Why do all these capitalists think capitalism is supposed to be risk free?


Shawn_NYC t1_j9ctour wrote

The billionaires absolutely think capitalism should be risk free (for them).


PhonyPapi t1_j985ld4 wrote

Meanwhile Amazon just ordered employees to start going back.

The crappier buildings are a lost cause but there's still demand for class A. Larger employers are still going to lease space. 2 Manhattan West is still under construction i think and it's pretty much all leased out.


EvanMcD3 t1_j9aljmg wrote

This reminds me of another, less drastic, change of workplace habit. Back during the 1980 transit strike, which forced many to walk part way or all the way to work, women traded heels for sneakers and many guys switched their dress shoes too. That trend held after the strike was settled.


Black-n-GoldBleeder t1_j9dpk68 wrote

I always dressed business casual to work everyday. Then covid hit. I’d wear shorts to work when I’d go to the office, as there would only be a couple of us there. It was more of a go in and do what I needed to do, then leave deal. 3 years later, I still wear shorts and a work branded polo most days. Wore shorts to work today even (south Louisiana). Wednesday I’m going to Manhattan for a week, and I’m freaking because I don’t have clothes for this shit. I go often, but this will be the coldest trip by far. The only gloves I own are white with light up fingertips in Mardi Gras colors lol. It got that cold here in December, and we basically shut down and bunkered in for 5 days.

Yes I know, I’m in the NY sub and I don’t live there. But it’s my favorite place in the world and I’m fortunate enough to be able to travel there often. This trip is mainly to go watch the Pelicans play at MSG Saturday night.