This article is exclusively focused on Yeshivas. But do private Catholic schools in NY still use corporal punishment, too?

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... one of those "how have we not done that already" type of deals

I'm Jewish, but I can offer that the Catholic schools in my Community no longer use corporal punishment, they stopped in the 1980s.

article:

New York State lawmakers have introduced several bills that would ban corporal punishment in private schools after The New York Times reported that students in some Hasidic Jewish religious schools have been regularly hit, slapped or kicked by their instructors.
Democrats and Republicans in both chambers have introduced at least four bills to outlaw the practice, which is prohibited in public schools but not explicitly barred in all private schools. Several lawmakers said they expect the measures to pass without opposition.
“No so-called educators or educational administrators have a right to put their hands on anyone’s kid,” said Charles Lavine, the Nassau Democrat who is chairman of the Assembly Judiciary Committee and sponsor of one of the bills. “It’s as simple as that.”
The legislation is part of a broader push by some state lawmakers to increase oversight of private schools, especially all-boys schools in the fervently religious Hasidic community, in response to the Times investigation, which revealed that those schools had received more than $1 billion in taxpayer funding while providing only paltry instruction in English, math and other secular subjects.

The failings occurred despite a state law requiring private schools to provide an education that is substantially equivalent to the one offered in public schools. The Times report, drawing on 911 calls and interviews with dozens of recent students, also showed that teachers in many Hasidic schools made regular use of corporal punishment to keep students in line during hours of grueling religious lessons.
Representatives of the Hasidic schools say that their instructors do not use corporal punishment and that any isolated incidents occur less frequently than in other schools.
Last month, during a joint legislative budget hearing, lawmakers questioned a spokesman for Agudath Israel of America, an Orthodox Jewish group that advocates for Hasidic schools. The spokesman, Rabbi Yeruchim Silber, defended the schools and said they had no tolerance for corporal punishment.

“These schools produce citizens who are well-rounded in all areas,” Rabbi Silber said. “Businesspeople, professionals, every walk of life, family life, communities that are low in crime, low in drug use.”
This week, representatives of several Hasidic schools did not respond to requests for comment.
The bills aimed at raising educational standards in religious schools include proposals that build off the state Education Department’s new regulations for all private schools. The regulations, which officials had considered for years, were adopted days after The Times investigation was published in September. They offered a road map for holding private schools to minimum standards, requiring the schools to prove they are providing a basic education or risk losing funding.

One proposal, introduced by Assembly Democrats Kenneth Zebrowski and Deborah Glick, would clarify and strengthen the state’s existing law. Another pair of bills, by Assemblywoman Linda Rosenthal, would require instruction in certain subjects, including prevention of child abuse. A third piece of legislation, from State Senator Robert Jackson, would cut off funding for any private schools that fail to certify that they are providing education in specific secular subjects like math, technology and geography.
Mr. Jackson, a Manhattan Democrat, said in an interview that he had unsuccessfully pushed the bill in previous years. He said he had long supported budget increases for public education but believed schools that accepted public dollars without providing basic instruction in reading or math were “committing a fraud.”

“If you’re receiving the money, you need to do what you said you were going to do,” Mr. Jackson said. “If not, you’re going to be in trouble.”
All the bills aimed at improving secular instruction in private religious schools face significant opposition.
In January, eight Republican members of Congress from New York State wrote a letter to Gov. Kathy Hochul asking that she not interfere with Jewish religious schools — known as yeshivas.

“We urge you to do all in your power to support and empower New York’s yeshiva schools to teach their students on their own terms,” wrote the lawmakers, including Representative Elise Stefanik.
State Senator John Liu, the Queens Democrat who is chairman of the Senate Education Committee, said in an interview that he believed that further legislation was unnecessary because state officials had handled the issue last year when they adopted new regulations.
The proposal to ban corporal punishment in private schools, by contrast, has garnered considerably more support, including from Mr. Liu and many others.
At least four such bills have been introduced, but lawmakers appear to be coalescing around one filed by State Senator Julia Salazar and Assemblywoman Emily Gallagher, both Democrats who represent Williamsburg, Brooklyn, home to some of the most insular Hasidic communities in the state. At least six other senators have signed on as co-sponsors.

The proposal defines corporal punishment as “any act of physical force upon a pupil, however light, for the purpose of punishing such pupil or modifying undesirable behavior.” It states that no teacher or school employee may use corporal punishment.

The bill is now pending in the Senate Children and Families Committee.
Another proposal, from Assemblyman David McDonough, a Republican from Long Island, defines corporal punishment to include the use of timeout rooms.
Aside from the Times articles, The Albany Times-Union reported last year on more than 1,000 instances of corporal punishment that have illegally occurred in public schools in recent years.
The Times articles sparked debate among officials over corporal punishment laws. While the law clearly says that corporal punishment is only barred in public schools and certain private schools that are registered with the state, some officials pointed out after the Times investigation that “child abuse” already was illegal under state law, and that corporal punishment could be considered abuse. The state Education Department even issued a formal opinion saying that was its interpretation of the law.
Still, several lawmakers said they believe more clarity is needed, especially as it relates to yeshivas.

State Senator Liz Krueger, a Democrat from Manhattan, said she hoped that any corporal punishment bill the Legislature passes would include clear enforcement measures and penalties for schools that break the law.
“Frankly, there have been some decent laws on the books,” Ms. Krueger said, “but they haven’t been enforced.”

How have we not banned corporal punishment of children entirely, including at home, like most of the free world?

There have been tons of scientific studies about it and the conclusion is almost universally that it causes long term harm and doesn't improve behavior.

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They did do it already, back in 1985.

What they don’t do is enforce it. So they’re going to pass a redundant bill, pat themselves on the back for their performative compassion, then go right back to not enforcing it.

No

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Well... I mean to be fair subsidized New York orthodox Jewish schools do suck ass, but it is their culture. I wouldn't say, uh, terrorism is Muslim "culture" per se. I see what you were going for but you went a little hard in the paint there lol

it was the "what we do isn't our business" like yeshivas aren't even part of all jewish culture—it's only ONE part of one particular jewish community.... just like the taliban/islamic extremeism is it's own culture within the larger muslim community. you can't say some of that stuff isn't culturally part of the larger community when it especially when it directly involves that religion & has so much support within certain countries in the middle east. the same way jewish people, especially those who run yeshivas, are just a cultural part of the larger jewish community. jewish & muslims aren't a monolith

Alright more NY laws that will never be enforced out of fear of offending

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No, they absolutely do not.

i literally didn't even comment about the jewish religion itself, only about the yeshiva & then they literally went into a rant. i didn't even know anyones religion in the room.... honestly they were just projecting at that point...

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So basically our taxes are going to cult indoctrination for children, nice

Any dude who wants to smack kids around is a freak. Period.

You can do whatever you want if you want it to be part of your religion, but you can’t take public money for it.

They haven’t for over 30 years. Source: my friends went to Brooklyn catholic schools.

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You don't see how commenting on religious schooling is commenting on religion?

I mean religious schools shouldn’t be banned, and that’d be super unconstitutional anyway.

But religious schools shouldn’t receive a cent of taxpayer money, whether they’re teaching the kids Judaism or Islam or that Jesus rode a dinosaur or whatever.

Ban corporal punishment, full stop. What in the the barbaric stone aged fuck. Everyone stop hitting each other.

Yep. And the yeshivas take money to provide special Ed services and after school programs and redistribute the funds to themselves and their families. There was a story that said they had fleeced voters out of something like 2 billion dollars

It sounds like OP didnt really have a choice. It sounds like it was a topic in a story they were going to cover.

Absolutely not. Went to a Catholic school with some real shits who would have gotten a smack a century ago. They’ll just expel you now

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FYI, the legislature doesn’t enforce laws, the executive does.

Former school vendor here, no they don't. At least not where I could see

I thought for sure this was done already, because my boomer parents got hit in Catholic school, but in the 90s the nuns always said they weren’t allowed to hit us anymore.

Good for you though. People can be such egregious hypocrites, and increasingly they take advantage of what should be clean, progressive ideologies. For example, we should be moving away from anti-Semitism, but when a Jewish person unreasonably wields that accusation as a weapon in instances where it doesn't apply, it not only diminishes the power that should be inherent to the word "antisemitic", it actually moves us all backwards at the same time. Same shit with racism, sexism, homophobia... People hijack the fact that we are in a movement that empowers the progressive angles of these things and it just makes everything more obtuse. I grow tired of it.

This really serves to highlight NYT obsessive campaign of reporting on the ills of yeshivas.

No.

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This really serves to highlight how backwards, abusive and corrupt some yeshivas are and have been allowed to be. Pass the law.

Corporal punishment never works. Especially under 12. There is literally ZERO evidence that hitting a kid is effective in changing bad behavior. There is evidence that corporal punishment makes bad behaviors worse. It's exhausting that this even needs to be discussed in 2023.

But it’s way easier to call the government useless and hypocritical if we pretend it’s an amorphous blob rather than a group of oft-competing interests with different levels of authority.

That’s not feasible if someone works in a newsroom that writes about religious issues. You may as well tell an accountant to avoid discussing taxes.

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Sure pass the law but don’t limit focus to just yeshivas.

The legislature is supposed to come up with an enforcement budget when they write law that’s going to mean extra work/personnel.

Ideally.

But if all they’re about is free publicity, they blow that part off and leave it to somebody else to figure out.

OK. Clearly not the job for you, and no one with those requirements would ever be hired for it. Your personal comfort level isn’t all that relevant—the job necessitates commenting on religious practices. People who take the job take it knowing they may ruffle some feathers. Not everyone is completely conflict-averse.

If the Yeshivas are indeed ill, why shouldn't they be reported on? Your assertion isn't that the NYT is making up malfeasance, simply reporting on actual malfeasance that happens, correct?

If so, why is it a bad thing to shine a light on child abuse?

My assertion is that the focus is singular and feels malicious. I want yeshivas to teach secular subjects and not abuse their children.

I don’t want them to serve as the example of all that is wrong when antisemitism is running high.

Did anyone intimate that there's something intrinsic about Jewishness that requires Yeshivas to abuse the children under their care?

Antisemites tend to.

So, your argument is "We should let Jews abuse children, because the extant, physical harm being inflicted upon children is less important than potential antisemitism"?

Have you ever read "The Ones who Walk Away from Omelas" by chance?

That’s an absurd argument and not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying all this negative attention is careless and unbalanced and the Times rarely highlights positive aspects of the Hasidic lifestyle.

Ok, but... shouldn't someone be receiving negative attention for abusing children?

Why is it the NYT's job to promote anyone's livestyle? What do you believe the purpose of journalism is in a civil society?

I believe the NYT is not objective in its reporting when it comes to the Hasidic community and has made it a goal to highlight as many social ills as possible within it.

Do you believe the NYT is objective in its reporting of any other religious movements and/or cults?

Again, we agree that there is child abuse in Hassidic run Yeshivas, correct? It's happening and the NYT is not fabricating that.

Is the NYT required to, say, publish an article about how Jim Jones was a crusader for civil rights and equality among African Americans? Do we have to have a puff piece on Tom Cruise for every article about Scientology's forced labor?

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Ah. Thanks for the info. Turns out I'm just old enough to have had friends in the last few classes before they stopped doing it, hence my need to ask.

I don’t much care to philosophically debate the benefits of objective journalism when people’s lives are at stake. You’re also showing a profound bias by stating that Hasidic Judaism is a cult.

I said "religious movement and/or cult." Considering it's properly referred to as the "Hassidic Movement" I assumed that'd be relatively uncontroversial. It's literally a spiritual revival movement, from which both cults and non-cults have originated.

Enforcement budget…? Like a victim’s fund? I’m no specialist on this law but I think the executive presents a budget and the legislature approves it.

Spending bills originate in the house and is approved by the senate and sent up to the executive to create law but the authority to actually spend money from the fund is up to the executive, right?

Say Albany gives out money for this purpose to the various local municipalities (county, city, town, zone), and then their executive and/or enforcement agency has their own enforcement priorities… I’m not sure if the legislature can really be blamed here.

i get it but i wasn't commenting on the religious aspect of the school. simply that they were violating a child's rights in this country by not teaching them basic reading and writing

Started Catholic school in 1992, and everyone said that they stopped corporal punishment that year once the nuns were gone.

I mean, this is a misinformed view for people that love to be a victim of woke culture. The actual reason is that Hasidic Jews in NYC are a large voting bloc. Traditionally, going against them has been detrimental to re-election.

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TIL low English scores is the same thing as terrorism

The focus isn't limited. It includes any private school that uses corporal punishment on kids, not just yeshivas who do. If 99.9% of the schools this touches are a certain type of school, perhaps some soul searching must be done. It also must be said that not all yeshivas are like this. Some are amazing institutes of learning that treat kids with respect they deserve.

it isn't and no one said it was?? i was commenting on the fact that they said what their religion does is no ones business. i could say the same thing ab cultures that commit FGM....like it's someone's business if it's affecting children negatively

edit: & it isnt just ab low test scores when they are physically beating children like this post states smart ass

They are still allowed to beat children? Wtf?

Is beating children an “ill?”

You’re nitpicking. Call it what you want - I would like to see the practice stopped without stocking the flames of antisemitism.

It is a reporters Job to report on things like this.

Other religions like islam and christianity are ridiculed almost constantly in pop culture. Do not act like criticism of child abuse is “anti-semitism”

It is a reporters Job to report on things like this.

Other religions like islam and christianity are ridiculed almost constantly in western culture. Do not conflate criticism of child abuse to “anti-semitism”

Calling abusing children an “ill” is severely downplaying what is happening. Perhaps use more accurate language if you don’t want to be questioned about it.

“The Times report, drawing on 911 calls and interviews with dozens of recent students, also showed that teachers in many Hasidic schools made regular use of corporal punishment to keep students in line during hours of grueling religious lessons.”

Are there reports of violence used against students at other private schools?

I must be living under a rock because I thought that was already the case. If you haven't read the NYT investigation that sparked the bills here, it's a wild ride.

I'm not convinced that'll have the effect you expect it to, and as contradictory as it sounds it seems more likely to me that children that grow up without corporal punishment are simultaneously more likely to be excessively cruel and victimized themselves as adults.

The briefest of googles nets a mountain of evidence to the opposite.

WHO: "Corporal punishment is linked to a range of negative outcomes for children across countries and cultures, including physical and mental ill-health, impaired cognitive and socio-emotional development, poor educational outcomes, increased aggression and perpetration of violence."

American Psychological Association: "Many studies have shown that physical punishment — including spanking, hitting and other means of causing pain — can lead to increased aggression, antisocial behavior, physical injury and mental health problems for children."

UT meta-study: "Given the strong link found between corporal punishment and aggression and antisocial behavior in childhood, it is not surprising that this association would continue into adulthood. Having learned that they can use aggression and force to compel others to do what they want in childhood, children persist in using aggression to control others’ behavior into adulthood."

Child abuse just does not lead to positive outcomes. Stop hitting your kids.

What’s the definition of “corporal punishment” in this context?

Edit: I see, deeper in the article. This bill defines it as physical force used, which is appropriate. That is not the same definition for corporal punishment that is applied in public schools in NY lol

The way I see it is that if you are paying for your child to go to a specific school it is because you are approving of the curriculum they are teaching and the methods they are using to educate your child (be it hasids hitting kids or nuns slapping with rulers). And as long as the amount of physical interaction is not to the extent that it is illegal were it to happen in your home, then the state should leave it alone.

(And this is also an excellent reminder of why ZERO tax dollars should be going to any private religious institution -- for ANY reason!! In "real" schools, you don't get to hit my fucking kid.)

From your APA source:

As in many areas of science, some researchers disagree about the validity of the studies on physical punishment. Robert Larzelere, PhD, an Oklahoma State University professor who studies parental discipline, was a member of the APA task force who issued his own minority report because he disagreed with the scientific basis of the task force recommendations. While he agrees that parents should reduce their use of physical punishment, he says most of the cited studies are correlational and don’t show a causal link between physical punishment and long-term negative effects for children.

“The studies do not discriminate well between non-abusive and overly severe types of corporal punishment,” Larzelere says. “You get worse outcomes from corporal punishment than from alternative disciplinary techniques only when it is used more severely or as the primary discipline tactic.”

In a meta-analysis of 26 studies, Larzelere and a colleague found that an approach they described as “conditional spanking” led to greater reductions in child defiance or anti-social behavior than 10 of 13 alternative discipline techniques, including reasoning, removal of privileges and time out (Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review, 2005). Larzelere defines conditional spanking as a disciplinary technique for 2- to 6-year-old children in which parents use two open-handed swats on the buttocks only after the child has defied milder discipline such as time out.

I have a very good friend who trains working dogs, and the above method sounds very much like his approach to nipping dogs. The purpose of a small electric shock is not retribution, it's to force a break in concentration. A beagle on the scent of a rabbit is a very special kind of focus, and sometimes they just don't listen to commands so the electric shock is only used after verbal commands and warning tones have failed. To me this is exactly how my parents raised me, when I was disrespectful a warning was given, and if I continued to press the issue the threat was acted upon.

As far as I can tell, this is how the real world works, people will only have so much tolerance for verbal abuse before they will solve their problems with physical violence, and the reason you're seeing the rise of the Karen is because this lesson was not instilled in them as a child. Getting licked by your parents for disrespectful behavior is a lot better of a place to learn that your words have physical consequences than getting beat down by an underpaid & overworked Amazon Employee.

First of all, the claim that they are not being taught reading and writing honestly sounds politically manufactured to me. If all of your classes are called "Religious Brainwashing" and you read the bible all day every day and write essays about it, you might not have "Reading" and "Writing" classes, but you sure as hell are able to read and write. (And it doesn't sound like Hasids are graduating school unable to read and write, are they? Historically speaking, their communities tend to prioritize education and work mainly white collar jobs.)

So you took the absence of reading and writing classes and compared that to terrorists learning to blow people up. And now you wonder why people are looking at you side eye...? Hmm.

Your perception of the world isn't worsening because people aren't abusing their children enough. Your perception of the world is worsening because you're falling out of touch with it. Stop hitting your kids. It's child abuse. It's fucking them up and continuing a cycle of violence.

Stop hitting your dog, too.

Indeed - how is that not already the case.

What's so great about it?

Ask someone who’s Hasidic. My understanding is rich culture and a real sense of community, people know their neighbors and help each other out in ways small and large.

Either way, we should give the same leeway to the Hasidic lifestyle that we do to everyone else, no?

That's basically ever religion my dude. And no one intelligent assumes all Hasidics are bad because of this article. An anti-semite will be that way regardless.

omfg yall are SO obtuse. i wasnt comparing reading to terrorism i was saying leaving a culture to do as it pleases doesn't work out well. & it literally hasn't in these hasidic communities.

not to mention if you don't believe what the reports of these yeshivas are doing-you're just misinformed.

maybe if you believed in more critical thinking you'd be able to understand my original point.

So tell me... are kids from yeshivas graduating being unable to read and write? I'm more interested in actual evidence, not "critical thinking".

you better believe they are graduating that way. because they aren't being taught english—they're being taught hebrew only. maybe if you read a single article about it then you'd read that there's parents literally begging that their kids an education that teaches them english. many switch their kids to public school. the ones that don't get threatened by the community for wanting to.

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It should be illegal in your home. A country where it's illegal to assault an adult but it's legal to assault a kid is sick.

I’m for diverting some of the subsidies to driving schools for this community. The city would become measurably more safe.

> then i preceded to ask if that same logic applied to muslims who commit terrorism

This is really neither an appropriate nor a relevant comparison. Many things you could choose, this wasn't it. Terrorism isn't a cultural practice, and suggesting as such is a bit damaging.

first off neither is beating your kid like this article suggests they are doing in yeshivas.

& two

islamic extremism is a cultural practice tho. it isn't part of the muslim religion as a whole, 100% of course. but if it isn't cultural then what is it? economical? obviously not. it's roots are anti-western & involve changing the cultural zeitgeist of regions globally. that's just pure fact. & if we're talking about values, traditions, & societal norms— that's literally the definition of culture

terrorism in general isn't cultural of course that should go without saying for you people. but islamic extremism isn't just outright terrorism—there's a whole set of customs & culture that are attached to it. many muslim's even agree. i know plenty from the middle east that have studied & lived through islamic extremism.

In this case enforcement is handled by the State Education Department, which is not an executive agency. NYSED is controlled by the Board of Regents who are appointed by the state Assembly.

Muslim here, and hold on there. Islamic extremism is NOT part of our culture and there’s no longer any Muslim-majority country that has friendly relations with the Taliban. You had a good point about yeshivas but you lost me when you made such a dumb comparison.

You could easily criticize the privilege seen in Jewish enclaves of NYC, such as gender segregated buses run by a private Jewish company that takes metrocards, without mindlessly bashing a different community.

> islamic extremism is a cultural practice tho

No it isn’t.

> but if it isn’t cultural then what is it?

POLITICAL, obviously.

> that’s just pure fact.

No that’s ignorant racism on your part. The vast majority of Muslims live in democracies worldwide, they celebrate holidays and they even elect women as presidents and prime ministers. Extremism is not part of culture; are you going to claim that Americans burning down mosques is part of our culture too?

> terrorism in general isn’t cultural of course that should go without saying

Then what are you trying to argue about?

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> that should go without saying for you people

Ummm, "you people?" Who are you referring to?

> islamic extremism is a cultural practice tho.

You used the word terrorism originally. Extremism is very different. More accurately, I would call it conservatism, with extremism common especially in social and family matters.

Look, you won't see me defending Islamic (or any other conservative religious practices) at all. But I'm just pointing out that the comparison you originally made around terrorism as a cultural practice was wildly inaccurate. There were many examples to use, this wasn't the right one.

i would 100% argue that white supremacy has deep seeds in American culture. without a doubt, i would argue that. is it representative of all Americans? obviously not. but there's a reason we have so much white supremacy and extremism going on in this country such as islamiphobia. & it 100% has to do with America's founding culture and it's roots.

also terrorism isn't just islamic extremism. that should go without saying but i guess i have to spell that out for you.

you people referring to all the ones arguing my point- including you.

White supremacy is not the same as religious extremism. And white supremacy is part of American history but it’s hardly mainstream American culture like you’re trying to claim for terrorism for Muslims. You’re really trying to stretch to defend a blatantly bigoted position you made earlier. Is terrorism a part of Colombian culture? No.

No, but guerilla groups are definitely a part of the country. which is distinct to that territory. & i never said any of those things are or have to be mainstream either.

Guerilla groups that have to hide are now part of the culture in your mind? That’s like saying pedophilia is a part of American culture since it exists despite universal condemnation.

Yeshivas are absolutely an intrinsic part of Jewish culture and putting Taliban/Islamic extremism in the same sentence is insulting.

Anyone who has studies Jewish history knows this as a fact, it doesn't belong to just one Jewish group Yeshiva's are part of the history of every single European Jew and many non European Jews. They originated as a means for Jews who were banned from education in many parts of Europe to form their own education. Yeshivas were hugely important in forming large parts of Jewish philosophy, ideologies, and culture. Im not just talking about religious development but Jewish socialist movements, Zionism, and Jewish enlightenment ideas. Its also likely that Yeshivas are what contributed to Jews being so educated and becoming one of the most disproportionally successful groups on earth.

Im not saying modern Yeshivas serve that same crucial role but pretending like Yeshivas are just some niche part of certain Jewish groups and are mostly for religious extremists shows a complete lack of knowledge of Jewish history and culture.

No you said what they use against you to prevent reelection, they sugar coated it. Therefore, “misinformed.” It’s the backup when “anitsemetic” isn’t useful.

My comment is probably both with or with an /s.

It’s mostly won out but obviously empirical evidence and experience over generations is not always so easily discarded.

I thought freaks were cool though. Or is that only at night?

Anyone who touches kids (and you know what I mean) is a mutant.

The city needs to crack down, enough of this gods chosen people bs

They’re a cult, nothing more.

the ratio of corporal punishment studies that say "don't do it" to studies that say it's OK is similar to the ratio with climate realists and climate deniers.

If your parents hit you they were bad parents. Look at their absolute failure on display right now in the form of your ignorant ass putting a lot of energy into defending hitting children.

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TLDR.

just skimmed enough to glean that now, in addition to being long winded and sadistic, you're also being smug.

if you breed and live by the garbage you preach, may your progeny take revenge for their beatings when you are old and helpless.

(mutes replies)