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jvspino t1_jb1kfgl wrote

Reply to comment by NetQuarterLatte in Woman Followed Into Manhattan Building, Dragged Out of Elevator in Late-Night Rape: Cops by NetQuarterLatte

According to the article you linked, those include what's below. They don't sound unreasonable and if the prosecutors can't get ahold of most of these things, it's an issue with police record keeping, which is honestly concerning. I don't know enough about the witness requirements to have a strong opinion on them, but I think in general the defense should have access to this info since it's relevant to the case. It also reads like a list of rules created in reaction to misconduct - there must have been some questionable expert witnesses for 6 to have been written.

>1. All police paperwork >2. All body-worn cameras, even for officers not involved directly in the arrest >3. All police-disciplinary records for every officer on scene >4. Witness names and contact information, meaning if prosecutors worry a witness is put at risk or can be intimidated, they must petition a judge to redact that information. >5. Criminal records of “potential witnesses” >6. Expert-witness résumés and writings >7. Disciplinary records of any possible police witnesses and any other material “related to the case.”

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Brolic_Broccoli t1_jb26w64 wrote

As an attorney that practices in this field, it sounds reasonable at first right? The reality is that it's impossible to do this on every single case when you have 130+ cases and the turn around is 90 days on misdeamanors. If you're past 90 days the case is dismissed by law regardless of the merits. Meaning even if you have a cooperative victim, the defendant is caught on video, and he admits to doing it, the law states that the case must be dismissed.

Generally what's missing when a case is dismissed? Let's talk about a domestic violence assault case. It's not the paperwork work that you need like an arrest report surveillance notes, or even anything that's remotely helpful to the defense etc case. You have all of the responding and arresting officers information, reports and body camera already.

It's generally paperwork like 20th cop that arrived at the scene that didn't see anything and didn't arrest anyone yet you need his automatically generated memo book with the only entry being the time he began his shift.

If you don't have that, the case is dismissed, the order of protection is dismissed and the abuser is free to contact and abuse their victim again and the cycle of domestic violence continues.

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jvspino t1_jb2g3br wrote

I appreciate your perspective on the matter. It seems like there's opportunities to specify how and when these should be taken into account because I agree situations like the domestic violence one you discussed shouldn't be dropped. However, I'd hesitate to throw out the baby with the bathwater here - accountability and transparency are important in the justice system. Maybe I'm naively optimistic, but I'd really hope we can improve the system so that it's reasonably efficient but still gives people a fair shot at defending themselves. I don't think the solution should be fully rolling back these changes, as some other people seem to be suggesting.

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Brolic_Broccoli t1_jb2h0ee wrote

Hey,

Thanks for taking the time to read my wall of text comment.

I agree with each part of the legislative intent - and the baby should not be thrown out with the bath water here. The Reforms were badly needed in 2019. Defendants are absolutely entitled to each and every relevant piece of information that is helpful to their case. It's the enforcement mechanisms tied into the matter - such as having the entire case dismissed - because the statutory speedy trial deadline passes amongst other issues.

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jvspino t1_jb2hus4 wrote

And I appreciate your thoughtful replies. As a non-lawyer, I assume there's a lot of bureaucracy (and some corruption) that slows things down in system and leads to less-than-ideal solutions. Though I hope that we can still make progress in the right direction, even if slowly.

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Brolic_Broccoli t1_jb2jrhc wrote

For the most part, we're all regular new yorkers who live in the neighborhood and want community safety, willing to put in at least 12 hours a day despite receiving no overtime to process all the documents and videos we have.

My hope is that enough individuals let their legislative representatives know that we need change and tweaks in the right direction, because this affects us and our friends and family.

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SleepyHobo t1_jb2bi0j wrote

The items required don't sound unreasonable, but the focal point of the article was the time frame that they're required to turn over all of that evidence in. Seems like there's more of a limited resource of staffing and man hours, not a lack of access to the evidence. And it seems like these requirements were instituted either out of ignorance to the reality of its feasibility or malice to cripple the system.

I'd bet a lot of money the same people that bought this bill to fruition are not even remotely interested in increasing staffing to meet its obligations.

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jvspino t1_jb2hccz wrote

I mean, law enforcement gets more funding than other critical areas, like education and infrastructure. I'm not sure this is intentional crippling like you're suggesting it is, though I'd hope lawmakers and judges clarify the law so that it's not a a get out of jail card. However, as I replied to someone else, I don't think the answer is necessarily to go back to the old system, which had it's own slew of issues. We should strive to do better, even when the answers aren't clear cut.

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NetQuarterLatte OP t1_jb1l5p8 wrote

I think the devils are in the details.

But the overall change in the conviction rates are undeniable.

My layman understanding is that the messier the case is, more pieces of potential exculpatory evidence is created, and it’s more chances for the prosecution to violate the discovery requirements and benefit the defense (even the evidence in question turns out to be innocuous).

https://www.city-journal.org/new-york-discovery-reform-is-crushing-prosecutors gives an example of an hypothetical bar brawl.

And then we also had this bad cop case that was dropped because of the discovery requirements: https://nypost.com/2023/01/31/manhattan-da-abruptly-drops-case-against-crooked-cop-joseph-franco/

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jvspino t1_jb1qi2b wrote

I don't disagree with you entirely, but, as always, correlation is not causation. The pandemic resulted in high police mortality and lots of cities have been having trouble staffing departments, which probably contribute. I'm sure these reforms are having a negative impact on conviction rates, but we also can't assume that's necessarily a bad thing. Yes, there are high profile cases where someone clearly guilty gets off, but I'm sure there's less attention when someone innocent gets off too. As I mentioned above, several read like they were created to combat bad police work. I'm sure they create a higher bar for cases, but more work isn't an excuse to accept poor or dishonest policing and prosecution. I live in the city and am concerned about being a victim of crime, but being a victim of a corrupt justice system isn't something we should take lightly. Just my thoughts though.

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LikesBallsDeep t1_jb1w1ax wrote

Only reason covid killed a lot of cops is they were always the worst maskers around.

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theuncleiroh t1_jb2dj6a wrote

City Journal is a conservative ideological think-tank. Not exactly offering good evidence for your case here. All 7 of those are completely rational and fair. It's necessary to give the defense some defense (lol), since the system is already materially and structurally in favor of prosecution; the point is to reach a place of balance and equality, not to preserve the status quo and call it fair.

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