Submitted by King-of-New-York t3_11sp63y in nyc
casanovaelrey t1_jchhnxa wrote
Reply to comment by jonnycash11 in NY lawmakers say they won't support MTA's planned fare hike for commuters by King-of-New-York
Off the top from having lived in or frequently visited these places: Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul, Taipei, and Hong Kong. Moving similar numbers of people, in similar cityscapes, with similar usage rates or more, and a significantly lower cost with a much cleaner, safer, and well ran system. I lived in Shanghai for 5 years and they managed to build out and add 5 lines within that time. Obviously they've been in development for longer than a year per line but it's not $10 billion+ and 20 years damn near like the Q train that's going 30 blocks max.
jonnycash11 t1_jchmo4k wrote
Shanghai and Hong Kong do not have flat fares, they have fare zones. Shanghai’s is probably cheaper on average than New York’s, but I doubt if Hong Kong’s is.
Shanghai receives huge subsidies to operate and both HK’s and SH’s are not open 24/7.
casanovaelrey t1_jckjvrw wrote
Sooooooo being that I've lived in all three places, I can speak from a place of actual knowledge and not blind loyalty to an underperforming city. This isn't what I think or feel or hope to be true. This is what I've actually lived.
> Shanghai and Hong Kong do not have flat fares, they have fare zones. Shanghai’s is probably cheaper on average than New York’s, but I doubt if Hong Kong’s is.
Distance based fare is a knock on the MTA and not Shanghai Metro. The Shanghai Metro system is larger in distance than the MTA system and the most you'd pay is $2.18 for a trip. That's ONLY if you're going from the extreme ends on the system, which is generally unlikely because most destinations you'd go to are in the metro area, versus the outskirts and villages of the Shanghai Region. A short trip within the 4 Train circle will cost you about $0.45. An average one, probably $0.80 - $1.00. Add that to the fact that you do not have to leave the system to access any train within the network.
HK Metro is also cheaper than the MTA, in exchange for for much better service. Mind you, the MTA is not even the busiest service in the world. It's not even in the top 5.
https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-articles/118931/10-busiest-metro-systems/
> Shanghai receives huge subsidies to operate and both HK’s and SH’s are not open 24/7.
As far as subsidies, the MTA is also being subsidized. To the tune of nearly $8 Billion annually. As is the nature of all public infrastructure. It's not supposed to be wholly self sufficient. That would defeat its purpose of being for the general public. So other metro systems being "subsidized" is another weak argument. We're just really bad. And we shouldn't be. Not with the amount of money we spend.
That being said, the MTA is wildly inefficient, overpriced, and subpar. It's embarrassing.
jonnycash11 t1_jcktdkx wrote
Congrats, I’ve lived in all three places too. 给你鼓个掌
casanovaelrey t1_jckuzma wrote
> Congrats, I’ve lived in all three places too. 给你鼓个掌
恭喜你。Then I question your previous statements because it should have been obvious to you then. While Shanghai CAN BE cheaper than NYC, is also a pretty high cost of living city. Hong Kong on the other hand, is extremely expensive and often surpasses NYC in COL. Both places have significantly better metro systems and have about the same number (or more) in terms of usage. Point being that for the resources that the MTA has at it's disposal, it does a really bad job.
jonnycash11 t1_jckwb3y wrote
Do you need to buy a house in NYC to have a 户口 and access to the pubic services? That’s what subsidizes public transport.
If the income to housing cost ratio was as skewed in NYC as it is in Shanghai, we could hire migrant workers to build and repair tunnels without OT, probably it would be close.
My qualifying my earlier statement is not the same as saying the MTA is great. Different inputs produce different results.
casanovaelrey t1_jcl1q1f wrote
> Do you need to buy a house in NYC to have a 户口 and access to the pubic services? That’s what subsidizes public transport.
I didn't have a hukou (户口本 or household registration for those who don't know what we're talking about) or property and I had access to all public services. Granted I had a work visa so I'm probably splitting hairs here lol, but that isn't the main fundraising method for the metro system. It's taxes, just like here. And government investment. So it's a moot point, insofar as mentioning hukous.
> If the income to housing cost ratio was as skewed in NYC as it is in Shanghai, we could hire migrant workers to build and repair tunnels without OT, probably it would be close.
I'm not sure if you know how much housing costs in NYC but it's skewed pretty badly. Affordability wise, it doesn't cost $20 Billion annually to have half of the trains at any given time running on a modified route or schedule and to have inconsistent service. Shanghai as a city is pretty comparable to NYC. Maybe not a direct comparison, as you already know, in terms of COL, but relatively it's very comparable.
>My qualifying my earlier statement is not the same as saying the MTA is great. Different inputs produce different results.
And my point is that in similar sizes economies, in terms of wealth generated, with similar sizes population and ridership rates, with similar funding sources, the MTA is doing abysmally in comparison.
jonnycash11 t1_jcl74i7 wrote
Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China.
Buying a home is what gets you a hukou in a big city. The taxes on real estate are what fund public works.
Property tax is not existent because, with very few exceptions, the government owns all of the land. Income tax is negligible in China.
…
And you keep missing the point where I keep saying that because I am elaborating on why the Shanghai system costs less, it does not mean I am praising the MTA.
casanovaelrey t1_jcldl6r wrote
>Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China.
I lived there for 5 years. I know exactly what a hukou is. It's a registeration permit that allows you to live in a specific area, usually related the 1st tier cities. And you can't just buy a property in Shanghai to get a hukou.
"Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China."
There are many factors that go into it. Your marital status, how many years you've paid into the system, possession of a residence permit for the specific area, and a bunch of other requirements.
>Buying a home is what gets you a hukou in a big city.
"Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China."
Since that is NOT how you get a hukou. I explained some of the things you would need to buy property. Having a hokou allows you to buy property, not the other way around.
These are the requirements for getting a hukou:
Those possessing qualified talent, such as having established a startup, owning patents, founder of or senior management in a leading company;
Those who earned at least a bachelor’s degree overseas;
Those who have newly graduated from university;
Those who are spouses/children/parents of Shanghai-hukou residents;
Those who hold a Shanghai residence permit and have contributed to social insurance in the city for at least seven years.
Not once do I see anything about owning property. You get the privilege of owning property by having a hukou.
So, "Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China."
>Property tax is not existent because, with very few exceptions, the government owns all of the land. Income tax is negligible in China.
So this is a Hong Kong paper talking about Mainland China but I'll use it anyways since it's easier to do that than try to get one from behind the firewall in English BUT it is CLEARLY discussing property taxes. So your statement isn't true.
"Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China."
That being said, public funding by the Shanghai government and the State of NY is derived from pubic funds, which come from gasp taxes. Either way, both in relative numbers and gross numbers, they're spending similar amounts on public transportation. Only one is doing what it should. The other isn't. It would seem to me that were should figure out how they're doing it, adapt it to our situation, get these mafia clowns and grifters off of public welfare (attaching themselves to public projects) and make the system what it should be.
>And you keep missing the point where I keep saying that because I am elaborating on why the Shanghai system costs less, it does not mean I am praising the MTA.
I do NOT miss the point. You're trying to insinuate that the MTA is doing the best that they can with what they have. That's patently false. Now I don't expect $.50 fares either. That's wild and unrealistic. But for $2.75, we should be getting so much more than what we're getting.
jonnycash11 t1_jclr4bf wrote
I lived in China for much longer than that, have a degree from a Chinese university (taught in Chinese) and ran a small business for several years.
In any case, a hukou is a household registration system created after the Chinese Civil War to prevent farmers from leaving the countryside and flooding into cities. Everyone has one.
You can work and rent in other areas, but you are denied access to certain municipal services, like local health insurance, retirement funds, and high schools for your children if you live in a different area. Working in that area will give you certain benefits, but less than a bonafide resident You also cannot get married in a different city unless you are working there.
That being said, local governments raise money for public works through land sales and taxes on real estate.
casanovaelrey t1_jclsg1x wrote
I know the history of why it was created (or reintroduced). I know all of the reasons why you need one, how to get one, what is for, etc. It doesn't change the fact that you were wrong about a hukou being given for purchasing property.
We're digressing from the point though. The point being that with similar amounts of money, ridership, and size, Shanghai has a far superior metro system for a plethora of reasons. Even if we were to adjust spending to match cost of living, instead of looking at gross numbers, the MTA severely underperforms. Almost at a criminal level, if you ask me
jonnycash11 t1_jcm980w wrote
So, you’re acknowledging that I was correct about municipal revenue. Great we agree then.
We also agree that the MTA could be better.
As for the hukou, you’re either being intentionalIy pedantic or are having trouble following what I said.
Who told you there were other ways to change your household registration without buying property in a new city? Maybe if you’re a party member or doing research in a big city, yes, but otherwise that’s about the only way to do it. You can’t change household registration unless you have a new household!
payeco t1_jcmmkdy wrote
Don’t forget the corporate parent of the MTR has massive real estate holdings in HK which they use to fund operations and expansions. A bit hyperbolic but it would be like if the state gave the MTA Hudson Yards before it was built and told them profits from building there must go towards the subway.
[deleted] t1_jcvwsmi wrote
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misterferguson t1_jchjqum wrote
>Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul, Taipei, and Hong Kong
You are vastly oversimplifying this. Tokyo, for example has less than half as many stations as NYC. Taipei even fewer stations than Tokyo. Hong Kong even fewer.
I'll agree that they're cleaner and more efficient, but our subway system is simply way bigger than pretty much every single other subway system.
Oh yeah, it's also open 24/7. The ones you mentioned aren't.
casanovaelrey t1_jchuhgd wrote
Shanghai has the largest network in the world. NYC is more compact so it has more stations, sure but that doesn't take away from the fact that Tokyo is the largest city in the planet by population. Shanghai, was a region has nearly 25 million people but the city center is very densely packed. Taipei (Greater Taipei) and Seoul are both 7M and 10M respectively. NYC is about 8M (add another million in terms of tourists and commuters so 9M). Hong Kong 7.4M and far more densely packed than NYC in Kowloon and HKG Island. So as I've stated, population density and ridership is there.
Actually out of the top 10 busiest systems, MTA is 7th in the world. There's no reason for the gross inefficiency, TERRIBLE maintenance, trash, security issues, reliability, etc. No other system I can think of regularly has you ride in an opposite direction, switch trains, catch a bus, and take a shuttle, just to reach a station that was on the original train's route anyways.
The MTA is open 24/7, yes but the ridership is so low that they should be able to use that time to fix the issues they're having. Also systems like HK Metro close for 5 hours at night, run with greater frequency, move similar amounts of people at a lower cost. And HK often comes in as the most expensive city in the world for real estate. So it's not like it's some backwater town with a low cost of living.
The issue is poor governance, corruption, and apologists who try and justify a rotten system.
iv2892 t1_jci0mpa wrote
Yeah, nyc subways don’t look as nice and neat as Tokyos or Seoul. But is good enough , they can make some improvements . But as far as your average big city goes is pretty damn good. MTA just needs to make more effort at avoiding delays .
Brickblastchest t1_jcoyr8e wrote
Tokyo has 882 rail and subway stations to the MTAs 472.
misterferguson t1_jcp0qq6 wrote
You can’t cite those numbers and leave out LIRR, Metro North and NJ Transit, which all serve NYC in addition to the NYC subway.
Brickblastchest t1_jcp5o5b wrote
accounting for those + SIR it would then be 773 stations vs 882.
movingtobay2019 t1_jcj2hlm wrote
Seoul’s subway system is way bigger than NYCs. And NYC’s subway really shouldn’t be 24/7. Shit here closes much earlier than other international cities.
gregbeans t1_jchia7e wrote
A lot of that is because of the differences in the cultures.
Most Asian cultures are much cleaner and respectful of public places than Americans are, especially NYC Americans
casanovaelrey t1_jchj9xi wrote
My brother. You have NOT lived in China is you think that's the case. I'm convinced that in certain areas, they've perfected the art of littering. Still a great country though. Mention Japan and Taiwan, you might have an argument though. But it's not just culture, in terms of cleanliness. And that's still a weak excuse, on the part of our government, to not handle business. We lie about how we're the "greatest city in the world" and I was embarrassed to live abroad and see that we aren't even the greatest city amongst the top economic powers. NYC is looked at as TImes Square, Billionaire's Row, and Wall Street and we're supposed to pretend like that success and glamor is everyone's. It's NOT. We can do so much better.
gregbeans t1_jchk08p wrote
I was referring to Tokyo and Seoul, can’t speak for china so I believe you. But I stand by NYC people treating public places like shit, sounds like a lot of Chinese do too.
I also agree that the government is corrupt and incompetent, but what can we do about that?
casanovaelrey t1_jchkyb2 wrote
Yeah Tokyo is a different level of meticulous lol. Seoul is great too. Other places outside of Seoul though can be a little different.
Naw you're not wrong though. We treat the city like shit but it's like the chicken and the egg. Do we treat it like shit because of the government or is the government ineffective because we treat it like shit?
Firstly start demanding accountability. I don't mean a couple of policy wonks on Reddit or the couple of tech millennials who go to the meetings. I mean as a city vote these clowns out then go after the governorship. The amount of naked corruption is staggering.
jonnycash11 t1_jchmrmn wrote
Depends on the neighborhood. It’s clean where I live.
iv2892 t1_jci0tug wrote
That’s what I say , nyc gets a bad rep as a dirty city . But there are many neighborhoods where people would get surprised at how clean it is
myassholealt t1_jci0ju0 wrote
In a city full of transplants, calling out 'NYC Americans' is like saying American Americans. Look at the state "Americans" leave camping grounds and national parks. It's an American culture thing. We don't respect anyone but ourselves. And cleaning up is inconvenient so we don't.
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