Submitted by King-of-New-York t3_11sp63y in nyc
jonnycash11 t1_jchmo4k wrote
Reply to comment by casanovaelrey in NY lawmakers say they won't support MTA's planned fare hike for commuters by King-of-New-York
Shanghai and Hong Kong do not have flat fares, they have fare zones. Shanghai’s is probably cheaper on average than New York’s, but I doubt if Hong Kong’s is.
Shanghai receives huge subsidies to operate and both HK’s and SH’s are not open 24/7.
casanovaelrey t1_jckjvrw wrote
Sooooooo being that I've lived in all three places, I can speak from a place of actual knowledge and not blind loyalty to an underperforming city. This isn't what I think or feel or hope to be true. This is what I've actually lived.
> Shanghai and Hong Kong do not have flat fares, they have fare zones. Shanghai’s is probably cheaper on average than New York’s, but I doubt if Hong Kong’s is.
Distance based fare is a knock on the MTA and not Shanghai Metro. The Shanghai Metro system is larger in distance than the MTA system and the most you'd pay is $2.18 for a trip. That's ONLY if you're going from the extreme ends on the system, which is generally unlikely because most destinations you'd go to are in the metro area, versus the outskirts and villages of the Shanghai Region. A short trip within the 4 Train circle will cost you about $0.45. An average one, probably $0.80 - $1.00. Add that to the fact that you do not have to leave the system to access any train within the network.
HK Metro is also cheaper than the MTA, in exchange for for much better service. Mind you, the MTA is not even the busiest service in the world. It's not even in the top 5.
https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-articles/118931/10-busiest-metro-systems/
> Shanghai receives huge subsidies to operate and both HK’s and SH’s are not open 24/7.
As far as subsidies, the MTA is also being subsidized. To the tune of nearly $8 Billion annually. As is the nature of all public infrastructure. It's not supposed to be wholly self sufficient. That would defeat its purpose of being for the general public. So other metro systems being "subsidized" is another weak argument. We're just really bad. And we shouldn't be. Not with the amount of money we spend.
That being said, the MTA is wildly inefficient, overpriced, and subpar. It's embarrassing.
jonnycash11 t1_jcktdkx wrote
Congrats, I’ve lived in all three places too. 给你鼓个掌
casanovaelrey t1_jckuzma wrote
> Congrats, I’ve lived in all three places too. 给你鼓个掌
恭喜你。Then I question your previous statements because it should have been obvious to you then. While Shanghai CAN BE cheaper than NYC, is also a pretty high cost of living city. Hong Kong on the other hand, is extremely expensive and often surpasses NYC in COL. Both places have significantly better metro systems and have about the same number (or more) in terms of usage. Point being that for the resources that the MTA has at it's disposal, it does a really bad job.
jonnycash11 t1_jckwb3y wrote
Do you need to buy a house in NYC to have a 户口 and access to the pubic services? That’s what subsidizes public transport.
If the income to housing cost ratio was as skewed in NYC as it is in Shanghai, we could hire migrant workers to build and repair tunnels without OT, probably it would be close.
My qualifying my earlier statement is not the same as saying the MTA is great. Different inputs produce different results.
casanovaelrey t1_jcl1q1f wrote
> Do you need to buy a house in NYC to have a 户口 and access to the pubic services? That’s what subsidizes public transport.
I didn't have a hukou (户口本 or household registration for those who don't know what we're talking about) or property and I had access to all public services. Granted I had a work visa so I'm probably splitting hairs here lol, but that isn't the main fundraising method for the metro system. It's taxes, just like here. And government investment. So it's a moot point, insofar as mentioning hukous.
> If the income to housing cost ratio was as skewed in NYC as it is in Shanghai, we could hire migrant workers to build and repair tunnels without OT, probably it would be close.
I'm not sure if you know how much housing costs in NYC but it's skewed pretty badly. Affordability wise, it doesn't cost $20 Billion annually to have half of the trains at any given time running on a modified route or schedule and to have inconsistent service. Shanghai as a city is pretty comparable to NYC. Maybe not a direct comparison, as you already know, in terms of COL, but relatively it's very comparable.
>My qualifying my earlier statement is not the same as saying the MTA is great. Different inputs produce different results.
And my point is that in similar sizes economies, in terms of wealth generated, with similar sizes population and ridership rates, with similar funding sources, the MTA is doing abysmally in comparison.
jonnycash11 t1_jcl74i7 wrote
Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China.
Buying a home is what gets you a hukou in a big city. The taxes on real estate are what fund public works.
Property tax is not existent because, with very few exceptions, the government owns all of the land. Income tax is negligible in China.
…
And you keep missing the point where I keep saying that because I am elaborating on why the Shanghai system costs less, it does not mean I am praising the MTA.
casanovaelrey t1_jcldl6r wrote
>Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China.
I lived there for 5 years. I know exactly what a hukou is. It's a registeration permit that allows you to live in a specific area, usually related the 1st tier cities. And you can't just buy a property in Shanghai to get a hukou.
"Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China."
There are many factors that go into it. Your marital status, how many years you've paid into the system, possession of a residence permit for the specific area, and a bunch of other requirements.
>Buying a home is what gets you a hukou in a big city.
"Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China."
Since that is NOT how you get a hukou. I explained some of the things you would need to buy property. Having a hokou allows you to buy property, not the other way around.
These are the requirements for getting a hukou:
Those possessing qualified talent, such as having established a startup, owning patents, founder of or senior management in a leading company;
Those who earned at least a bachelor’s degree overseas;
Those who have newly graduated from university;
Those who are spouses/children/parents of Shanghai-hukou residents;
Those who hold a Shanghai residence permit and have contributed to social insurance in the city for at least seven years.
Not once do I see anything about owning property. You get the privilege of owning property by having a hukou.
So, "Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China."
>Property tax is not existent because, with very few exceptions, the government owns all of the land. Income tax is negligible in China.
So this is a Hong Kong paper talking about Mainland China but I'll use it anyways since it's easier to do that than try to get one from behind the firewall in English BUT it is CLEARLY discussing property taxes. So your statement isn't true.
"Gosh, you have little understanding of how things work in China."
That being said, public funding by the Shanghai government and the State of NY is derived from pubic funds, which come from gasp taxes. Either way, both in relative numbers and gross numbers, they're spending similar amounts on public transportation. Only one is doing what it should. The other isn't. It would seem to me that were should figure out how they're doing it, adapt it to our situation, get these mafia clowns and grifters off of public welfare (attaching themselves to public projects) and make the system what it should be.
>And you keep missing the point where I keep saying that because I am elaborating on why the Shanghai system costs less, it does not mean I am praising the MTA.
I do NOT miss the point. You're trying to insinuate that the MTA is doing the best that they can with what they have. That's patently false. Now I don't expect $.50 fares either. That's wild and unrealistic. But for $2.75, we should be getting so much more than what we're getting.
jonnycash11 t1_jclr4bf wrote
I lived in China for much longer than that, have a degree from a Chinese university (taught in Chinese) and ran a small business for several years.
In any case, a hukou is a household registration system created after the Chinese Civil War to prevent farmers from leaving the countryside and flooding into cities. Everyone has one.
You can work and rent in other areas, but you are denied access to certain municipal services, like local health insurance, retirement funds, and high schools for your children if you live in a different area. Working in that area will give you certain benefits, but less than a bonafide resident You also cannot get married in a different city unless you are working there.
That being said, local governments raise money for public works through land sales and taxes on real estate.
casanovaelrey t1_jclsg1x wrote
I know the history of why it was created (or reintroduced). I know all of the reasons why you need one, how to get one, what is for, etc. It doesn't change the fact that you were wrong about a hukou being given for purchasing property.
We're digressing from the point though. The point being that with similar amounts of money, ridership, and size, Shanghai has a far superior metro system for a plethora of reasons. Even if we were to adjust spending to match cost of living, instead of looking at gross numbers, the MTA severely underperforms. Almost at a criminal level, if you ask me
jonnycash11 t1_jcm980w wrote
So, you’re acknowledging that I was correct about municipal revenue. Great we agree then.
We also agree that the MTA could be better.
As for the hukou, you’re either being intentionalIy pedantic or are having trouble following what I said.
Who told you there were other ways to change your household registration without buying property in a new city? Maybe if you’re a party member or doing research in a big city, yes, but otherwise that’s about the only way to do it. You can’t change household registration unless you have a new household!
payeco t1_jcmmkdy wrote
Don’t forget the corporate parent of the MTR has massive real estate holdings in HK which they use to fund operations and expansions. A bit hyperbolic but it would be like if the state gave the MTA Hudson Yards before it was built and told them profits from building there must go towards the subway.
[deleted] t1_jcvwsmi wrote
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