Comments
123456abc__ t1_irlj0n6 wrote
Open or closed is fine. Low pressure steam systems don’t care. Just not halfway.
emeyer94 OP t1_irkzrnp wrote
Dry air is definitely a problem. I have an old towel I soak in water and layover the radiator before bed.
smugbox t1_irl06m5 wrote
None of that works on a cold day with the windows open though. We have a humidifier, but it’s pointless if you can’t seal up the room
Bertie_Woo t1_irnjlrd wrote
I second both these suggestions.
b0xtarts t1_irnaysc wrote
I’ve never gotten a definitive answer on anything related to radiators. It pisses me off. I have 5 from the 1800s how do I care and maintain them
femaledog t1_irwe1wv wrote
If you want to read the best source of information on the web about steam heat, check out the Strictly Steam subforum of heatinghelp.
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/categories/strictly-steam
​
It is an incredible resource, the information there has helped me unfuck years of hack jobs on the steam radiators at my home and office.
961402 t1_iro7wo5 wrote
I've always been told that the actual answer to this is "It depends and you should ask your super" because there are apparently a few different ways in which a steam heating system can be set up and in some cases the knob/valve is there in case the radiator needs to be removed or replaced and when you turn the knob to off, it cuts off steam to anything else along the line.
Bertie_Woo t1_irniy26 wrote
If the service valve is in good condition it might not be a problem, but using an air release plug / smaller orifice is a more reliable permanent solution if you have issues with water noise.
ZweitenMal t1_irl3hcx wrote
You shouldn’t close it because edits a building-wide system designed to work as a unit. If radiators are closed, the system is not working as designed. Open your windows.
mule_roany_mare t1_irmjt7q wrote
This is true to an extent, steam can be an absolute bitch to balance.
A lot of the one pipe steam in NYC was designed for coal boilers which came to temperature & pressure very slowly compared to the efficient gas boilers currently installed.
You are way out of spec from “design” already. I don’t know what the theory of why it matters is, but in practice it does not matter much or all of the time.
Hell, con Ed will give you TRVs which close off a radiator about as effectively as if the valve is closed, the boiler can’t tell the difference
smugbox t1_irmv2kj wrote
Not getting nosebleeds again. Nope
Bertie_Woo t1_irnkfir wrote
I also have issues with nose bleeds and in my case air purifiers help too. Furniture and beds can locally harbor dust mites even in dry apartments and cause irritation.
This also led me to discover ultrasonic humidifiers produce a smoke-like level of fine mineral dust.
ZweitenMal t1_irn0xie wrote
Get a humidifier.
smugbox t1_irndtsi wrote
I have one. Turns out they don’t work with the windows open.
My building is fine. No water hammer here.
Bertie_Woo t1_irnk5eb wrote
Humidifying a leaky apartment can be very difficult. For my unit it requires multiple gallons per day. I think it's easier to seal the area and reduce the heat to what is actually needed.
ZweitenMal t1_irno20i wrote
My apartment gets so stuffy with the windows closed. If you open them from the top you get a little flow of fresh air and it vents the excess heat naturally.
I don’t mind refilling my humidifier every day. I also put baking pans full of water on top of the radiators. Helps as well.
Bertie_Woo t1_irnpwti wrote
Oh, I'm curious about the baking pans, is that enough humidity for you?
I am sensitive to noise and live in a windy area, so opening the window doesn't work well for me.
Last year I disabled one radiator, used wet towels on the other radiator cover, and sealed all my windows. It worked well but damaged the radiator cover paint. I tried pans initially, but it didn't evaporate enough. I ended up DIYing a solution with Ikea buckets, evaporative wicks and a large quiet computer fans. I'm on the top floor of an old walkup with skylights though, so it's probably a worst case.
Bertie_Woo t1_irnqmxf wrote
In theory I feel like there should be a device that taps the single-pipe for humid air. I suppose that wouldn't fix stuffiness though.
Forced air HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilation) systems could possibly help, but I haven't seen a window mounted version. It would probably be noisy anyways.
ZweitenMal t1_iro17as wrote
The baking pans do seem to help. Adding a proper humidifier helps much more. I bought one with an automatic setting--you set the humidity level you want to maintain and it runs and shuts off as needed. And yeah, it's running nearly all the time just to keep it to 40% in winter. It's a Vornado, I forget which model.
In winter I also have to pay attention to using more moisturizer and lotion (all over my arms and legs) and a good lip balm, as well as drinking my usual level of water. I'm not as thirsty because I'm not hot, so I have to remind myself.
Winter is a dry time of year, that's all there is to it.
Bertie_Woo t1_irnjqyk wrote
This is just an excuse. Opening your windows is wasteful and drying.
ZweitenMal t1_irno4u6 wrote
Ok, thermodynamics expert.
PuzzleheadedWalrus71 t1_irl3dml wrote
As I'm sitting here thinking about closing the valve because I don't have enough windows to open to cool my place down. People in my building have their air conditioners on right now.
NadzInTheCity t1_irl4yxb wrote
I’m sitting here reading this with my AC on because the radiator is literally hotter than hell
Troy_Ounces t1_irrgk7g wrote
Dude i’m getting cooked lately. I need the outside temp to drop another 30 degrees before it balances out. I get home from work and my apartment is 85 degrees. I moved here from florida FOR THIS!?
redditorium t1_irlaok8 wrote
It is insane and terribly wasteful
Han-Shot_1st t1_irnnqz3 wrote
I’d be super curious to know, if anyone has ever done a study on the wasted energy/resources?
Traditional_Way1052 t1_iro1fzg wrote
It irks me a lot... In winter, I have to dress in short sleeves to be comfortable and then in summer I need a sweater... But if the seasons were reversed somehow that's not ok. Seems very wasteful to use that much energy...to still have to use clothing to change your body temperature after all. lol
Carmilla31 t1_irm9g3o wrote
One day i came home from work in the winter and looked at the thermostat and it said 87 degrees lol.
Cj_Joker t1_irmwoef wrote
If you're talking the big cast iron radiant heaters, you're supposed to use a cotton or wool cover with this, which restricts the airflow through the heater, and lessens the actual radiant heat. You're not supposed to use open windows to balance things out (although that does help keep fresh air in the place and lowers the chance of illness).
Covering the units helps preserve the heat capacity in the system and allows people further down the line to receive more heat, as opposed to having to absolutely crank up the heat in order to get at least a small amount of it to the end of the line, when they're all just exposed and blazing away.
They used to sell covers specifically for this back in the day... not sure why this just fell to the wayside.
And do not use synthetic materials on it.
im_not_bovvered t1_irrt247 wrote
With all of my windows open and the radiators going, it's still minimum of 85 degrees in my apt if I don't run my A/C. I can't turn either of my radiators off (I have two and a heating pole).
There really should be a maximum indoor temperature rule too.
mule_roany_mare t1_irmkapx wrote
If you don’t want to close the valve on your steam radiator see if the owner will install a TRV, Con Ed gives them out free/cheap & it’s a 5 minute install.
They go where the air valve is now & work the same way, except they have a wax seal that closes when the room is too warm. After a cycle or two when the radiator can’t vent the air it will keep most of the steam from entering.
If some villain noticed it was too hot & put a piece of electrical tape over the vent it would keep 90% of the steam from entering.
PuzzleheadedWalrus71 t1_irmqx89 wrote
Can you install one on a radiator that's in the wall?
Bertie_Woo t1_irnigjb wrote
You can ask your super to install an air release plug or smaller orifice. Opening the window is not ideal since all the humidity will escape and dry you out.
[deleted] t1_irp1uat wrote
[removed]
Saladcitypig t1_irl81w8 wrote
I'll take knocking over getting a heat headache in the darn winter. Come in, take off all your coats and sweater and sweat in a tank top, with air you can make beef jerky in... no thanks.
mule_roany_mare t1_irlbns9 wrote
This is dumb advice which makes tons of assumptions.
Are they talking about one pipe steam or two or anything else?
For one pipe steam the valve needs to be fully open so that the condensation can drip back down the riser, it's also why your radiator needs to be raked towards the riser too.
You have to keep the valve fully open or fully closed, it's not a temperature control. You can install a special vent called a TRV which gives you some control though. A steam radiator needs to let air out so steam can come in, the TRV has an expanding seal so that when the room is warm enough it will trap air.
If you want to turn off your radiator & don't have access to the valve (or you just got it to stop leaking & don't want to mess with it) you can just cover the valve with tape. After a cycle or two your radiator will only have room for trivial amounts of steam.
TLDR
the valve between the pipe & the radiator needs to be full open or full closed. The gospel of dry steam. Opening windows to control temperature is a dick move
redditorium t1_irlgbr6 wrote
> If you want to turn off your radiator & don't have access to the valve (or you just got it to stop leaking & don't want to mess with it) you can just cover the valve with tape. After a cycle or two your radiator will only have room for trivial amounts of steam.
Is this also true for two pipe radiators?
mule_roany_mare t1_irlmilu wrote
Probably, I don't see why it wouldn't work. If you have a vent for air plugging it will trap air. If air is trapped a minimal amount of steam will get in.
I also don't see any risk for damage, but I've never even seen 2 pipe steam in person.
I know about one pipe steam because I've had to fix 20 problems with my 120+ year old building.
__-__-_-_ t1_irmw16q wrote
If you have a two pipe system you're better off just shutting the valves. Two pipe valves are designed to be used repeatedly and to be partially closed to throttle the heat. If you see multiple valves, only touch the one that's closest to your radiator on the steam supply side, though. That one is the one for you to use, the others are just to isolate the radiator for repairs and will probably start leaking if you wear out the seals by repeated use.
b0xtarts t1_irnb37d wrote
Bruh can we private chat?
im_not_bovvered t1_irrtmr8 wrote
>Opening windows to control temperature is a
>
>dick move
You're bolding this like a lot of renters (myself included) have choice in this. With the windows open and the heat on my apt is a minimum of 85 degrees. It would be well over 100 if I didn't open the windows.
It's the landlords, management companies, and supers that need to do something about it.
mule_roany_mare t1_irs4721 wrote
Unfortunately the landlord is bound by the lowest common denominator, that means keeping the coldest apartment at 68 degrees (plus a margin of error in practice).
Owners would love to save money, but the dick who refuses to close his window is also the dick who calls the city & gets you fined. It's a problem in coops & condos just as much as renter buildings.
It's a catch 22 that hinges on uncooperative residents who have zero incentive to conserve energy.
im_not_bovvered t1_irs6z1q wrote
People are, largely, opening their windows so they don't die of heat stroke.
If tenants don't control the heat, it's not tenants' faults if the only way to literally not have a 110 degree apartment is to open the windows.
mule_roany_mare t1_irsco2v wrote
You have a lot more control over your heat than you think.
What kind of heat do you have?
im_not_bovvered t1_irsk6t4 wrote
I have radiator heat. The landlord and super control the boiler in the basement and when we receive heat. My two radiators cannot be turned off with knobs and they are behind radiator covers that are fused to the wall and painted shut and I have a heating pole that you also cannot control.
I don't control my heat. When it's on it's on. When it's off, it's off. I live in a pre-war building uptown - I'm not sure why you think I have any control over my heat.
mule_roany_mare t1_irsl4us wrote
…. I know how heating works, I’m asking what kind of boiler you have so I can tell you your specific options.
Do you have one pipe steam?
What is a heating pole? Are you talking about the riser that runs between floors?
im_not_bovvered t1_irsnfjb wrote
If you know how heating works, why are you asking me what a heating pole is? I feel like you know exactly what I'm talking about but are trying to be a know it all. Heating pole/radiator pipe/steam riser. Take your pick. It runs from the bottom of the building to the top and mine has a vent on the top because I'm on the top floor.
I don't think you actually know how it works if you think I have options. Once again, *I do not control my own heat.* I cannot turn my radiators on, I cannot turn them off, and I do not have any control over the boiler. If I could find a wool cover that I could be assured wouldn't catch fire, I'd try that. Other than that, I cannot do anything about the amount of heat I get.
Also I am a tenant in a rental building that is 76 apartments big. Our boiler room is locked - how am I supposed to know what kind of boiler we have? I could go on a dive on DOB that may or may not tell me what type of boiler it is, but the fact remains that the landlord and super control when it is and isn't on.
mule_roany_mare t1_irspw9w wrote
Because you haven’t answered the relevant question.
A pole isn’t a pipe & wanted to understand what you were trying to say.
I give up, enjoy your uncomfortable apartment.
>how am I supposed to know
By answering the damned questions & describing the features of your radiator accurately so I can tell you what you have & how to control the heat in your apartment.
How can you be so sure of what you don’t know & also confident you know everything?
im_not_bovvered t1_irsrlaf wrote
I literally told you exactly what my setup is in an earlier comment.
I have one of these:
https://renov8or.blogspot.com/2015/10/covering-exposed-heating-pipes-with-rope.html
And two radiators that cannot be turned off (the knobs don't work) that are covered with metal covers that are fused to the wall and cannot be removed.
I do not control when the heat is on or off in my building, so why does it matter what kind of boiler I have? I don't control it. Unless my super replaces my radiators (not going to happen) or sets them up with a temperature control (again, not going to happen - I have asked) or I can control the boiler (I don't), there's nothing I, a tenant, can do. If it's cold, call 311. If it's too hot, tough - there is no maximum heat law in New York City. Literally the only things I can do is open my windows, which is how these buildings were designed for combating illness, and run my a/c.
If you are familiar with radiator/steam heat in NYC you know exactly what a heating pole is and you're just being pedantic. I am confident about the building set up that I LIVE IN and how the heat works in my apartment building. Stop trying to gaslight me. This is not my first pre-war apartment with steam heat.
mule_roany_mare t1_irssi01 wrote
No one is gaslighting you.
You just don’t know as much as you think you do. You don’t need to control the boiler or the valve to prevent heat from entering your radiator.
Your options are different depending on what type of heat you have which can be determined by your radiator.
All the stuff you keep saying isn’t what’s relevant.
Enjoy your heat
bklyn1977 t1_irlls18 wrote
Here's your reminder that not all heating systems are designed the same.
TeamMisha t1_irlfv5r wrote
When I'm in apartments that still have the valves, I close them and there is nothing you can do to stop me. Not my problem heating system is ancient or LL leaves the system on for too long to cook us in our rooms lol
kevintravels t1_irlkk6t wrote
Eliminate the knocking sound? But that’s the beauty of a radiator! Knocks and hisses were music to my ears on a cold might. I don’t know how many times over the years I drifted off to sleep with the radiator knocking and hissing in the background. Now I live in a place where it’s warm all the time and radiators are not needed. I love it here, but I sometimes miss the old place. It’s one of the things I miss the most!
Bertie_Woo t1_irnl66v wrote
I think there's a fine line between ambiance and incessant noise which prevents sleep and drives you insane :P
uniqualykerd t1_irl27q4 wrote
Are radiators in the USA built differently from European ones? I did have to let the air out of mine every year. The only reason it would pound and hammer, is when the pipes got stuck in a bracket or in cement/concrete.
javaavril t1_irlq2ex wrote
There's a class of systems that were built during the 1918 flu epidemic that are steam and crazy to live with. There's no water hammer capable in them, as they steam and boil out at their top nozzle.
If you don't leave your windows open in the winter the systems don't work correctly, and if you do keep your windows closed or turn off the radiator valves you will die from heat stroke or an explosion of some sort? Whatevs. It's a ridiculous mystery and we all just live in millions of apartments that have free heating while needing to leave our windows open all winter with exhaust fans in the window sashes to blow out the insanely hot steamed air.
It's calamity! It's so ridiculous it barely makes sense explaining it to anyone that doesn't live in a building of this specific age in this specific location.
Otherwise heating systems, in most American homes, have similarities to European systems, but NYC around 1920 was ridiculous and a bunch of us are still living in that.
mule_roany_mare t1_irmkqhx wrote
Steam hammer is absolutely a problem
I’ve been trying to fix it on one of the lines in my building for a few years.
One drop of water makes a liter bottle of steam. That a lot of displacement. If your condensed water return line isn’t pitched properly anywhere it can be blasted back and forth with tremendous force.
Someone replaced their big cast iron radiators with pressed sheet metal ones & the hammer knocked it right off it’s wall mount.
The problem with steam IME is they were designed around slow rise & long cycle coal boilers & the valves for air to escape are way too small.
Unfortunately a lot of the companies in the industry just follow conventional wisdom passed down the generations. When my building had to replace it’s boiler I asked the organization that drafted NYC code for recommendations.
Bigger valves at the top of risers, TRVs on the radiators & pressure just low enough to reach the furthest radiator from the boiler & everyone will be perfectly pleasant. Insulating risers can also help a lot if a unit is still hot.
Getting all the residents to allow that to happen is the real hang up.
mule_roany_mare t1_irlbxka wrote
I think 2 pipe steam is more common in the EU one pipe lets steam in, one pipe lets water out. NYC has a lot of one pipe steam.
There are enough ways to deliver heat to a radiator it's impossible to make comparisons without knowing which is which.
gthrees t1_irluoks wrote
I have heard either open or closed. Not partially open. I have never ever heard not to close. Ever. Never. I even think this was made up just now.
Carmilla31 t1_irm9rmo wrote
But its on reddit. It has to be true.
TrumpterOFyvie t1_irnmcft wrote
I shut my radiator off completely years ago because it was so hot I was constantly sick and miserable. Even with all the windows open in winter. I was running my frigging AC in winter to compensate. Radiator heating is way too extreme in this city and I honestly don't know who likes it. Everyone I know complains their apartment is way too hot. It's such a waste of energy.
glostick14 t1_iro2ic7 wrote
This is a load of shit, designed to be used with open windows???!? That sounds like a bad design to me. In case you were wondering I hate NYC steam heat
guyinthechair1210 t1_irmtp73 wrote
and if you've got bad luck like me, the valve may eventually come loose and you'll end up with steam turning your room into a sauna. that happened to me back in march of 2019 and i ended up with 2nd degree burns on my hands.
TrumpterOFyvie t1_irnmkls wrote
Two toddlers were scalded to death in New York a few years ago this way. It was horrific. They were cooked alive as they slept.
__-__-_-_ t1_irmvbqp wrote
If you have a one-pipe steam system (the most common in smaller residential buildings in the city), there is another way to effectively stop a radiator from heating that doesn't involve opening and closing the valves. You just have to block the air from escaping out of the air vent with duct tape. This can often be just as effective as closing the steam supply valve, but you don't run the risk of creating leaks around the valve stem by using it repeatedly (the valves ARE meant to be used, but only for maintenance purposes, not opened and closed over and over again).
Beware that doing this may cause reduced heat output and / or increased hissing from other nearby radiators because the air in the steam lines has one fewer place it can escape. As long as every other radiator has a working air vent this shouldn't significantly harm the overall effectiveness of the system, though.
If you don't know what part of the radiator the air vent is, this article has some nice illustrations: https://www.sparksuper.com/5-steps-to-healthy-steam-radiators/
Also consider just telling your super / landlord the heat is on too high. Talk to your neighbors and see if they're hot as well. Sometimes they just set the central system really high assuming somebody is always going to be cold and everybody else can just open a window. If everybody is hot, though, that excess heating is just wasting their money.
Comicalacimoc t1_irp4fmc wrote
I can’t open my windows bc it’s too noisy
Rthymrug t1_irmwvdd wrote
We describing project heat?
here_walks_the_yeti t1_irnau87 wrote
One thing I miss is a good radiators heating system. When it’s tuned right you’re toasty, but when it ain’t you’re frosty
atxtony23 t1_irnbg3b wrote
Wish I knew this 4 years ago
ApplesauceLover123 t1_irp0add wrote
I'm personally a fan of the clanking and smell of hot.
sdo17yo t1_irpx341 wrote
Open windows? That's how you catch a cold bro.
arbrady t1_irlxhnw wrote
Everyone is complaining about how hot their apartment is and my radiator still hasn’t gone on other than once likely to test it.. this does not bode well.
bezerker03 t1_irppqxl wrote
That's not true at all. They're not designed for an open window. Thats literally letting heat out and wasting energy.
Sea_Sand_3622 t1_irm6uis wrote
The one pipe system is very inefficient but if you want to be warm throughout the winter season until the end of April, then leave the valve fully open. You can always open the window, use the ac or a fan. The landlord controls the boiler , you control the window.
The valve has to be either fully open, keep turning it counterclockwise until it stops turning. Or fully closed, keep turning clockwise until it stops turning .
If it’s fully closed and you hear banging noise , then your neighbor above or below your apartment, has their valve partially open.
The landlord would like to do away with the inefficient boiler,,especially with the price of fuel having gone way up. He wants to replace the boiler with a more efficient individual electric unit inside every apartment that you would control, like in a hotel/motel, but you would pay the electric to use it , he can’t do that because of the rent control laws that govern the rent control tenants in your building.
TrumpterOFyvie t1_irnmw5f wrote
"Use the AC" - lol. If you're having to put the AC on to counteract excessive, unhealthy heat from your radiators, it's time to talk to the landlord. It's just pure insanity. The amount of energy wasted on heat in this city is insane and probably counters much of the green gains we get from city living.
im_not_bovvered t1_irru1z4 wrote
That's true.. but good luck getting your landlord to listen to you. Especially when half of your building is over 65 and constantly cold, even on a hot day.
Bertie_Woo t1_irnmbb2 wrote
I think you need a really fancy, noisy air-source heat pump to compete with gas prices. In my opinion they're not ready yet.
redditorium t1_irl90fl wrote
> Radiators are designed to be used with a series of open windows to balance heat.
So dumb, so great for the environment.
Before anyone says it was for the pandemic in the early 1900's -- it seems like it did fuck all for covid here
smugbox t1_irky00q wrote
I am STILL hearing conflicting info on this though. Some people say it’s fine to close it, just not fine to close it part of the way.
Last year I was getting nosebleeds from the 17% humidity we had with the heat on and windows open. My super was just like “shut the radiator off, no big deal” so that’s what we did. No water hammer.