Submitted by exgalactic t3_z78ttw in nyc
Comments
brook1yn t1_iy5u7g2 wrote
They barely do. If only there were as much trust fund babies out there as we imagine there to be. Thankfully my wife was able to switch to tech from non profit arts. Non profit in general means underpaid. It sucks.
jaimeyeah t1_iy6lm1u wrote
Can agree, same with working as staff at a not for profit university. Looking for a good way to leverage into the private sector.
shogi_x t1_iy84982 wrote
>Non profit in general means underpaid.
Can confirm. Though some places make up for it with good benefits.
brook1yn t1_iy84tue wrote
There's no shame in a low wage job. Its just frustrating when a) the heads of the organization tend to make really good money (sometimes because they tend to be the draw for fundraising) b) the job itself blows because they're short staffed and thus everyone has to do 3 positions in one and c) the companies just aren't run well so there's a general toxicity in the air.
Somenakedguy t1_iy8azev wrote
I worked in IT for a nonprofit for almost 5 years. I loved my job, loved our mission, loved my coworkers and our staff, and was very passionate about supporting the work we did
Eventually though I just couldn’t resist the allure of money. The salary wasn’t even remotely competitive compared to private companies and I eventually left for an easy 50% raise with less responsibility. And I constantly felt guilty about my salary while working there as I knew I was making double of what most of our program staff made even while feeling underpaid myself
rootbeer_racinette t1_iya7fbo wrote
Yeah this is my experience. A lot of finance and tech bros have a wife with a job in art, non-profit, or politics that's more like a hobby when you consider how little she makes in relation to the aforementioned bro.
brook1yn t1_iya83o8 wrote
I'm not sure what would change the system but nice young ladies maybe shouldn't settle for shit pay. Easier said than done.
occasional_cynic t1_iy62p51 wrote
Have a relative who holds one of these jobs. No trust fund, but she lives with a bunch of roommates in Brooklyn and her parents still pay a good portion of her bills.
Stefan_Harper t1_iy7s4i9 wrote
I made $12 an hour in Toronto framing pictures for fancy galleries. I’d get shipping manifests for 80-100$ million, no joke, and then go home and eat rice and green onions.
[deleted] t1_iy6rnxl wrote
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yoshimipinkrobot t1_iy7imdh wrote
There have been studies on this. Despite the anecdotes, artists come from wealthier backgrounds than even tech folks
[deleted] t1_iy7nhak wrote
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SmellyAlpaca t1_iy85515 wrote
I wanted to be an artist, and came from a poor family that was also abusive.
Because of financial reasons (and a desperation to move out of abusive home) I pivoted into doing design in tech because that’s where the money was and I could still do something related to art.
I think what makes people feel like artists must have rich parents is specifically that same kind of hardcore self sacrificing mentality that you mention — the idea that it is noble to be in poverty in service of something “greater”.
I think generally — if you grew up poor you know there is no romance in it, it’s just hard. To think that there is romance is what makes them sound naive and inexperienced. The people I know in my circles that have taken risks for art have had some kind of support system they can fall back on if they fail. The people who don’t sacrificed their dreams for a more stable career.
Anyway, good on you for bringing it up. Forget those people that shit on you for literally needing money to survive. Artists deserve to be paid and there is no shame in talking about that.
PS: I just saw your work on your profile. Amazing stuff.
[deleted] t1_iy8px10 wrote
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bittoxic00 t1_iy66w1r wrote
I thought these jobs were held by older ladies with a devotion to the arts and a rich husband
Albedo100 t1_iy8go4y wrote
Those are the board members usually
Darrackodrama t1_iy6jniu wrote
My partner has a living wage job in the art world (so proud of her) and she pointed this out last week about how fucked the art world is
whistleclick t1_iy7uvsz wrote
The jobs aren’t mostly held by the very rich or sorta rich, but it’s certainly designed to churn and burn the people who aren’t
iStealyournewspapers t1_iy8g98t wrote
Anyone I’ve ever gotten to know at Gagosian came from money, and I can think of at least 5 people. Two on the dealer end and 3 on the shop girl end.
You can also just sorta tell who comes from money. You see it in their face and how they present themselves/speak. Most of Gagosian is people that have/had a lot of help.
Truktek3 t1_iy7l94x wrote
That's pretty much all the arts. If you're not independently wealthy you're doomed.
threenamer t1_iy5gcp5 wrote
I had to leave the art world because of the ridiculously low wages. It sucks because I absolutely loved the work.
ZincMan t1_iy86avc wrote
I work with a few artists who came from working with Jeff Koons who were making $13/hr with him. Fucking obscene. They are so talented as well. Now they work as scenic artists for film making like $70/hr lol. Fuck rich artists paying real artists slave wages to make THEIR WORK and sell it for millions. It’s criminal and beyond insulting. How could you treat fellow artists so poorly ?
threenamer t1_iy8axer wrote
That’s nuts, but so true. What really got to me is the way careers were made or broken. Artists in my field were paid (or not) based on either their fuckability or access to more money.
ZincMan t1_iy8f76i wrote
Yeah it’s a total shmooze fest from what I understand. I’m glad I stayed far away from that world and still get to make a living as a painter. In the art world your fate seems to be totally in the hands of others
CydeWeys t1_iybie26 wrote
In case people don't realize why this is so crazy, Jeff Koons is a living artist worth hundreds of millions of dollars who pays people to execute on sculptures for him, and then sells it for millions. And he's only paying them minimum wage?!
iStealyournewspapers t1_iy8fp6u wrote
Christ that’s so bad. No surprise it’s a known fact assistants have stolen stuff from the studio like editions and prints. No shame in that honestly.
koreamax t1_iy5ovf0 wrote
Have you ever seen Gallery Girls?
threenamer t1_iy5yljd wrote
I have not. I imagine it’s heartbreaking.
koreamax t1_iy5ypye wrote
It's pretty funny, especially watching it now
iStealyournewspapers t1_iy8fwg3 wrote
It’s not a good example of the real art world. If I remember correctly it’s a reality show about girls working for a shitty irrelevant soho gallery.
richb83 t1_iy6h4yr wrote
Is that a documentary?
koreamax t1_iy6jyiy wrote
It's a Bravo reality show and it's awful
lawnguylandlolita t1_iy8bavo wrote
Omg as someone in the art world that show is so cringe
k1lk1 t1_iy5giyi wrote
> Wages for such roles at the Whitney and elsewhere raise questions about the feasibility of working in Manhattan, where rents reached a record high this year. The average one-bedroom apartment in Manhattan is priced at $4,278, but even a studio is $3,145. It looks like these workers will need to live deep in another borough, with a handful of roommates and a potentially long commute.
Welcome to real life, join the rest of us
kiklion t1_iy5wsx6 wrote
They are also comparing the lowest paid workers to apartments which average paid workers afford. Which never makes any sense. The people who can afford more expensive housing are probably paying for more expensive housing.
decelerationkills t1_iy9a9o0 wrote
Lol it doesn’t make sense but what are they gonna do? Show the (nonexistent) apartments that they could theoretically afford?? 🤣
deepmindfulness t1_iy6qoev wrote
I worked in the art world for years… you just described everyone’s living situation. Is this news? Also, lots of waiters are aspiring actors… 🤷🏻♂️
CrankyKitteh t1_iy81hqh wrote
Yeah but waiters in nyc make bank
decelerationkills t1_iy999bh wrote
The only issue is the unsustainability of this system. It has been this way for many years, but in the last 10 years I think it has gotten far worse. And keeps getting worse and worse.
This might sound like some crazy rant, but I genuinely don’t know how people intend to source cheap labor going forward, if they keep displacing low income housing.
I personally expect huge pushes in automation, so eventually New York City will just become a cool, hip playground for well off college kids and “average” earning FAANG people, they won’t have to bear the sight of poor people who support the city behind the scenes.
SettingSufficient788 t1_iy5emci wrote
I for one am shocked that Whitney Museum security guards can't live comfortably in Chelsea....
sanjsrik t1_iy5y2zg wrote
Chelsea Clinton?
falconbruncher t1_iy60o7o wrote
You want any fives with that?
GlitteringHighway t1_iy5mgwd wrote
The article has some really good information and some dumb information.
Being a security guard doesn’t mean you work in the “art industry.”
At the same time a gallery requiring a bachelors or masters for a front desk position is pretty shitty too.
Front Desk Associate | Bachelor’s and/or Master’s degree, one year of experience | $23 an hour
princessnegrita t1_iy6wkbe wrote
Okay hear me out.
There was a piece I saw at the Whitney a few years back (actually by DSNY’s longtime artist in residence!) that focused on the maintenance staff at the museum and urged viewers to see their work as part of the art too.
You can display art without security guards and desk/maintenance staff but museums and galleries can’t. Those workers aren’t artists but they’re a part of the art industry in the sense that it couldn’t function as it does without them.
millionsoffollowers t1_iy7j300 wrote
Museum security guards are also frequently artists. The lowest paid workers deserve a living wage. Even average paid workers cannot afford new leases right now.
lawnguylandlolita t1_iy8bg4x wrote
Merle Ukeles!!
princessnegrita t1_iy8jwba wrote
I think about Mierle Laderman Ukeles’ art so often. I’m pretty sure her work has subconsciously influenced the things I pay attention to lol.
lawnguylandlolita t1_iy8mgst wrote
She’s amazing. And she appointed herself artist in residence of the DSNY
princessnegrita t1_iy8nz5b wrote
Iconic!
iStealyournewspapers t1_iy8hdqy wrote
Security guards often are in the art industry though, especially at a place like The Met. So many of them are aspiring artists or practicing artists. I have 3 artist friends that worked security at The Met in the past.
GlitteringHighway t1_iy8jyuo wrote
I can see how’d you see that though I still disagree. Their job is security not art. Though they could be in both industries. If you moved them to a building doing the same job without art being what they are guarding, they are still doing security. That’s the core of their job. Even if they are aspiring artists or trying to get into the art industry indirectly.
Though this is more of a semantics argument. And I don’t mean this to be a cold hard fact. Just my opinion. It doesn’t disparage their occupation as well. Nothing wrong with being a security guard.
iStealyournewspapers t1_iy8srjc wrote
Are art handlers not part of the art industry? Because they are. Anyone whose job aids in the existence of the art industry is part of the art industry. Is a painter painting houses part of the art industry? No. Is a painter painting the walls of a museum in the art industry? Yes. Same goes for security. I’ve known one guard at Gagosian for like 10 years. He’s part of the art industry. He’s a Gagosian security guard. Gagosian depends on the guards to keep their work safe, or at least create the appearance that it is safe.
GlitteringHighway t1_iy902v5 wrote
If an art handler is handling art then they are part of the art industry. That’s obvious. For them to do their job they need to be handling art. If they became a security guard…then they are in the security field, not the art field. For a security guard…they need something to guard, it doesn’t have to be art.
A labor painter who paints walls of buildings, and one day paints the outside of a museum, isn’t part of the art industry. ( Though you could stretch that I suppose his industry might effect overall paint/tool prices)
A artist who paints in his/her home and doesn’t sell or license their work, is a hobbyist.
An artist who paints at home and sells or commercializes their work, is in the art industry.
That Gagosian friend? He’s a security guard, in security no matter how long he works there. There’s nothing wrong with that. His industry is security not art.
Is there a gray area in some jobs? Sure. Is it worth arguing over. Nope. What matters is they get a living wage, and hopefully enjoy their work. That’s about as far as I’m going with this.
iStealyournewspapers t1_iy943z8 wrote
But how is an art handler considered to work in the art industry when what they do really isn’t all that different than a talented mover or handyman who knows how to carefully move and/or assemble something valuable (that isn’t considered art)? Like I said, I personally believe that if your job specifically aids in the production or continuation of the art industry, then you’re working in the art industry, even if it’s just for a day here and there. I do see your points for sure, and like you said it’s kinda semantics, but I do feel it could be argued the other way. Just for fun maybe I’ll ask my guard friend if he’d consider himself to be working in the art industry, or if he sees himself as purely working in security.
mowotlarx t1_iy5gjxj wrote
People were big mad about companies doing big salary bands, but the information we all really wanted was the minimum salary, which we all know is closest to the real salary.
IGOMHN2 t1_iy7ismg wrote
> People were big mad about companies doing big salary bands,
New yorkers are whiners who will complain about anything
iStealyournewspapers t1_iy8h361 wrote
We also endure terrorist attacks, insane people on the street, and dumbass tourists like yourself, but go on
doctor_van_n0strand t1_iy85qwp wrote
I knew it was bad for art people when, as an architect, I showed my employment letter to the woman at the MoMA to get my creative workers’ membership discount and she gasped: “wow, you guys make all THAT coming right out of school?” And I was thinking “this big ‘ol salary nets me two roommates in Flatbush (at the time) and the interest payment on my student loans…god only knows what they’re paying you lol.”
_allycat t1_iy7h4c4 wrote
Artist intern: unpaid, no lunch or travel reimbursement (including when they make you do pickup/deliveries), 12-20hr days, 24/7 on call, must be able to arrive at studio within 20mins, you will probably do a bunch of manual labor. And no not the college summer type of intern. They want you to have a degree already and work full time.
Possibility of getting work by networking and resume line but you have to literally pay to work your ass off for something like a year. Of course people do it because they love it and the chance of massive success (fame or very high wages when you 'make it') by being in the right circles but it really sucks.
CrankyKitteh t1_iy81cnd wrote
Yeppppppppppp.
Chr-s t1_iy9bnbf wrote
when you’re being hired they say you’ll learn a lot which translates to, we’ll give you a lot of tasks that you’ll have to figure out how to get done instead of actually being taught skills and how to properly accomplish task. internships are not usually what they were meant to be anymore, which is more of an apprenticeship role rather than just a temp position.
Jkillaforilla90 t1_iy886ho wrote
“The first generation works their fingers to the bone making things, the next generation goes to college and innovates new ideas, the third generation... snowboards and takes improv classes." -Jack donoghy. Head of television and microwave programing and GE NBC
Wowzlul t1_iy8qzja wrote
I'm not an artist but I hate it when people trivialize their work or their lives like this.
I'm glad they're around. The city would be worse off without people trying to make art and it's a shame they're paid so little.
Jkillaforilla90 t1_iy8ru46 wrote
Things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. Brands create an illusion of worth. Create a brand, develop the brand, nurture that brand. This takes time. Artists like in any industry can’t expect to jump right in and make booko bucks.
Wowzlul t1_iy8sglj wrote
> Things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them.
This is just not true. Some of history's greatest artists were commercial failures in their lifetimes, often living very hard lives, only popular after their deaths.
Of course nobody wants to be a financial failure in their own life and an artistic success after they die. They want both financial and artistic success while they're still alive.
I don't think that everyone should be entitled to a good living just because they want to make art - after all, most of it is going to be crap and peoples' talents are often better utilized elsewhere - but I'm just saying that I don't think someone is a fool or a bad artist just because they're struggling to stay out of poverty. It's hard to judge that kind of thing.
Jkillaforilla90 t1_iy8txe9 wrote
Decent living in America is wealthy living in more than 75% of the world. Not to mention histories greatest artists did not have the internet to market themselves. In today’s age of instant information controversial things stand out amongst the rest.
aiepslenvgqefhwz t1_iy96rtd wrote
Oh, create a brand? Just create a brand? Why don't I strap on my brand helmet and squeeze down into a brand cannon and fire off into brand land, where brands grow on brandies?!”
Jkillaforilla90 t1_iy9agq2 wrote
Just get off your ass and do it instead of bitching on Reddit. Not all major brands but many started with a person, a pen, a paper and a plan. There is nothing stoping you but yourself.
aiepslenvgqefhwz t1_iy9bwak wrote
Wait until you graduate high school before giving out life advice.
Jkillaforilla90 t1_iy9gdvv wrote
There is literally millions if not billions of small businesses around the the US and the world who do just that every single day. You must work behind the grill at Wendy’s.
aiepslenvgqefhwz t1_iy9hqja wrote
Cool story kiddo. I’m sure your brand is popping off so good luck with that.
misterbigtime t1_iy887ei wrote
I worked in this industry as an engineer. Engineering was paid pretty standard pay. I know the consignment teams were paid very little but nearly everyone outside of engineering came from money.
xsunpotionx t1_iyafub6 wrote
Have worked in the art world for nearly 10 years in Chelsea, Lower East Side, Upper East Side and even in a gallery that is now mostly in Los Angeles. As an industry, it is as bad as they say it is. And in New York, you get some of the best wages in the country for this line of work. So just imagine what it is like everywhere else in the country - including California.
Most of the people I know in the industry start at basically nothing. I would see front desk assistant's making less than $20 an hour constantly in 2013 - 2017. It's incredibly embarrassing and an open secret that the art world dramatically underpays.
For context, my salary went from $37,000 in 2013 to $120,000 in 2022. So I would say it's been worth it. And there are many other sales directors who make much much more than me at my experience level. No I did not have a trust fund or have any inside connection to the industry through my parents or professors. And yes I did graduate with student loan debt like a normal person. There are regular people who work in the art world. It's not just who you think it is.
tf199280 t1_iy81m7v wrote
This makes sense
Isawthebeets t1_iya0use wrote
Arthandler magazine is a good visual guide to this
soupdumpling1 t1_iy5jile wrote
The art world is for people that don't have to work for a living - they have an allowance or fund from family. They might be passionate about their job and work hard, but these salaries cut everyone but their class off these opportunities.
See also: Conde Nast jobs, publishing industry, etc.
NorbertHerbertFrank t1_iy6hmad wrote
I work at a museum and NYC and don’t have a trust fund or allowance. Most of my colleagues fall into the same boat. You are incorrect
shutmywhoremouth t1_iy6jucx wrote
Same. I've worked in the non profit arts and social services sectors for decades. While there are some trust fund folks, the majority of us scrimped, had roommates, lived check to check and developed side hustles until we burnt out and/or left the field.
SmellyAlpaca t1_iy88xwl wrote
May I ask why you choose to work in this field? I mean that respectfully, sorry if the question sounds rude — it just seems like the pay and conditions are terrible. Especially when at the end you say many leave the field. What do you get out of it that makes you stay?
claushauler t1_iy8agxg wrote
Getting to be around art and artists all day can really be a blast. It's genuinely interesting to see the process and if you're into it every day is like going to work in Disneyland. That said : the wages are often ridiculously poor and the hours long. It's great until you can't take it anymore.
shutmywhoremouth t1_iy8yjkh wrote
It's a fair question and I appreciate the way you asked. I chose both the arts and social services because they are meaningful to me, I'm passionate about them, and the work is aligned with my values. However these fields are among those that are undervalued, under-resourced and therefore can be highly exploitative. I have a master's degree in social work that cost tens of thousands of dollars and four years of time and energy to get. Initially I didn't take too significant of a pay cut (I worked full time in commercial theater while pursuing my degree), but my earning trajectory was lowered overall.
I believe in people's right to quality and culturally affirming health and mental health care so I have stayed in the field. It's disheartening to realize that a lot of policy makers and organizational leaders don't share those beliefs or think it's okay to exploit workers and community members in the process. I think that's what drives a lot of people from the field. In my experience, even when people can/are willing to find ways to expand income or sustain a side hustle, it feels like an ongoing gut punch to be so undervalued and like your just a cog in an oppressive machine.
Sorry if that didn't completely answer your question. tldr: it's complicated and people have all kinds of reasons
SmellyAlpaca t1_iy93t6u wrote
Thanks for the detailed answer. It’s a tough situation to be in — and not easy problems to solve. I don’t have anything helpful to say but I hope you all get more funding, and that you are paid what you’re worth!
_allycat t1_iy7ixry wrote
The literal trust fund kids (that were not given high positions by nepotism) don't last in the arts. They're not willing or wanting to go through the hard work and emotional and physical abuse of entry level arts jobs because they can fall back on traveling/entrepreneurship/influencer/family business and it was likely a random noncommitted career pursuit in the first place thinking it would 'be fun'.
mmmmvodka t1_iy7xb8f wrote
This right here. They get their few years of experience and then depart for things like finance client work made possible with their families connections.
iStealyournewspapers t1_iy8i7ou wrote
You’re stereotyping here. There are always lazy people of any income background. I know multiple people who came from money and had a lot of help who are now extremely successful and work very hard. There’s also a range of wealth. Someone who gets a million a year from daddy, well yeah maybe they wont work too hard, but that’s an incredibly rare case. It’s more like lots of people getting their rent paid for or subsidized, or having a credit card for emergencies, or getting a lump sum a handful of times after turning 18. It’s not enough to be lazy the rest of your life. It’s enough to have a leg up and deal with less challenges than someone who has zero help.
iceols t1_iy6o9rd wrote
Naw, I just live poor af in a hoarder house so I can do art for a living. Not a joke, this is literally how I live. Some other folks in my graduating class live 5 artists to a rented house so they can all afford it.
goodmorning_hamlet t1_iy618j3 wrote
Precisely, it’s a class based filter.
lawnguylandlolita t1_iy8bla0 wrote
Disagree. I’ve been duking it out for 20 years and now make enough to support my family. I may be a unicorn tho. Paid my graduate school off and everything. It’s not easy though and I work hard.
jumbod666 t1_iy6s7k3 wrote
Art is only worth what someone will pay.
Mustard_on_tap t1_iy6clno wrote
This is a shit, hatchet job piece of shabby journalism. A random collection of galleries and one art school. Most of these organizations probably replied "no comment." A "deep dive" my ass. Looks like shoddy info from rando web sources.
Slow news day, so let's create some controversy to virtue signal and gin up some outrage. Paid by the word. Gotta write something.
Jaudition t1_iy6ehrz wrote
Employers don’t have the option to say “no comment.” The list was compiled from job listing salary reporting that is now compulsory in New York City.
As someone who’s worked in every corner of the art world from gallery intern, to museum research assistant to auction house specialist, it looks pretty in line with what I’ve been accustomed to. There are just a lot of mid-level and commission-earning jobs that are omitted to make the high-level and low-level employee pay gap seem larger than it is.
damagecontrolparty t1_iy5izc8 wrote
I always assumed that these jobs were largely held by people who had a trust fund or some other form of outside financial support, because I can't imagine how anyone else would be able to survive off what they are paying.