Submitted by alexd231232 t3_yjntuv in nyc
Comments
elizabeth-cooper t1_iup7j2o wrote
>The average electric bus costs roughly 60% more than a diesel bus, MTA officials say. A Columbia University study says electric buses cost roughly $300,000 more per bus than diesel. Electric buses used during a pilot program in the White Plains schools cost $365,000 each compared to $110,000 for diesel.
actualtext t1_iupd83x wrote
Thanks for sharing that. That’s an quite insightful article. So it sounds like it’s just costly in general at the moment. There’s also the transitional costs, but it sounds like once that transition takes place and more buses are ordered/produced, there will be more competition and lower costs longer term.
It’s nice we’re moving towards electric and suspect that in the aggregate the impact is a net positive. The article goes into things that aren’t so explicitly stated but easy to forget such as the fact that pollution has a cost. An example shared in the article:
> Their research cited a state comptroller’s report which found that asthma costs taxpayers $1.3 billion every year. “The number one cause of absenteeism in New York is asthma, much of which is related to air pollution,” said Julie Tighe, the league’s president.
Anyways, happy we’re making strides in this direction. We just need to start getting more serious about producing green energy now. Some of the deals to get hydro energy signed earlier this year by Hochul is a great start. Maybe these bus depots, can investigate the use of solar panels to further reduce costs? Not sure what that would look like but I’m guessing battery storage so that buses can charge at night.
It sucks that this article either intentionally or unintentionally did not go any further into investigating the reason these school buses were so costly. The headline and price tag will make people assume we’re wasting money or being overcharged when that doesn’t seem to be the case.
letsnotdolunch t1_iurp5wg wrote
But that's 332% more for EV over diesel in White Plains, not anywhere close to 60%.
elizabeth-cooper t1_iurq173 wrote
The first two sentences are talking about city buses, not school buses.
Oriin690 t1_iutl986 wrote
All of those numbers are wildly different. So according to the mta a diesel bus is normally like 225k, the Columbia says electric is 300k more so it shoukd be only 65k for a diesel bus, and the white plains says it's 110k for diesel
kuedhel t1_iuplcl8 wrote
by why? Tesla does not cost 60% more than an ICE car. Sounds like some sort of corruption is going on. Should we call Musk to provide an electric bus as well?
Rhino_Thunder t1_iupq7y3 wrote
Maybe something due to the scale of it. Same reason a bus uses a Diesel engine instead of a normal gas engine
foradil t1_iupxjga wrote
The school buses are built on a truck base, so most of the moving parts are not specific to school buses.
ethanarc t1_iuqbuy5 wrote
But the battery will likely need to be quite a bit larger to move the heavier and less aerodynamic school bus, which is always by far the biggest component cost of an EV.
Daxtatter t1_iurg55r wrote
Also at this point electric school buses are basically a boutique item, and it doesn't say how old that cited research is.
It also doesn't mention how much less maintenance electric vehicles have which is a huge expense.
shotpun t1_ius53z6 wrote
also doesn't mention the costs reduced by fewer pollutants
112-411 t1_iuum5im wrote
A bus uses diesel instead of gas because torque.
Kaekru t1_iuprni8 wrote
The same reason why Tesla started by selling 100k plus cars, scale of production.
AlexanderRussell t1_iuskx9i wrote
No, we want buses that don't kill children
kjuneja t1_iupdczo wrote
I hope this plus the potential upcoming bond offering will kick start the electrical vehicle charging network that needs to get built
Our electrical systems are badly in need of modernization if we expect to move from fossil fuels to renewables
echelon_01 t1_iuqoo21 wrote
I have a lot of concerns about costs and maintenance. But as someone who has sat, on a 95 degree day, stuck in endless traffic in the back of a diesel school bus, something definitely had to change. Let's hope aside from keeping the fumes down, these buses have heat, air, and functional seatbelts.
NicoleEastbourne t1_iuqseti wrote
And they are QUIET! Replacing out dated school buses has so many benefits.
Aviri t1_iuqvoh8 wrote
Maintenance costs are generally lower for electric vehicles than ICE
edags8 t1_iuttjbu wrote
There’s absolutely no factual basis for this statement
blueshirt21 t1_iur9h8d wrote
Not to mention the lowered air pollution will be both healthier for the children and improve cognitive development
KaiDaiz t1_iuox55m wrote
so what happen to all the old buses bought by BdB during pandemic when everyone said it was a stupid buy and waste of funds?
Oriin690 t1_iutn0xy wrote
Apparently the electric bus route their going in involves refitting old buses to be electric so I imagine they're using those bought by BdB
bsilva48 t1_iuraknp wrote
How does a school bus cost $400k?
d4ng3rz0n3 t1_iuwe1og wrote
Corruption
BasedAlliance935 t1_iuquxrg wrote
Nice, but why only 51?
Nouseforaname4 t1_iur4w0w wrote
I thought NYC school bus were run by private companies (outsourced). Did they just buy vehicles for a company we already pay with our taxes new vehicles?
lornaevo t1_iutmp9l wrote
NYC DOE purchased one of those private contractors last year. Reliant Bus became NYCS Bus.
Nouseforaname4 t1_iuvxwek wrote
Nice thanks for the info
Marleyking-627 t1_iupbtcc wrote
Hey people
[deleted] t1_iupqx96 wrote
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[deleted] t1_iuqklsu wrote
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Lumpy_Situation2364 t1_iuqvt6g wrote
Sounds like a bargain to me🙄
i-like-tech t1_iuqytht wrote
Sounds grossly underpriced
Any_Foundation_9034 t1_iurae42 wrote
Where are they going to charge them and who is going to pay for the charging ?
Daddy_Macron t1_iurnzgb wrote
If they can figure out how to fuel up school buses, they can figure out chargers.
fadsag t1_iut4g0s wrote
At charging stations, and we'll save money over fuel costs.
Any_Foundation_9034 t1_iutu7oi wrote
Ok. what powers the charging stations ?
fadsag t1_iuuh2vo wrote
In the dirtiest case -- a combined-cycle power plant. Those gets between 50% and 60% of the available chemical energy in the fuel, which gets reasonably close to the peak theoretical efficiency of the Carnot cycle.
The average internal combustion engine gets less than half that. High efficiency diesel gets close, but still falls short.
So, in the best case for gas vehicles, on the highway, an electric vehicle uses fossil fuels somewhere about twice as efficiently as a gas car. On top of that, an electric vehicle recharges its batteries when it brakes, and spends no energy when idling, which is important for city traffic, and (for buses) when stopping frequently at stops.
Counting the full life cycle of an electric vehicle, including recycling the batteries, they're between 30% and 50% more efficient.
On top of that, a power plant has room for larger and more effective air scrubbers, and ejects whatever pollution those miss relatively far away from major population centers, improving air quality.
And, now that it's becoming cheaper to build new solar plants than to keep existing coal plants running, electric vehicles get cleaner with no additional work over time, while gas keeps spewing fumes near the places that people live.
Any_Foundation_9034 t1_iuuhzcv wrote
Interesting. I don’t know how long it will take to perfect these new vehicles but the gas engine has been around for over 100 years.
fadsag t1_iuuigv7 wrote
Power plants have been around even longer, and the fact that they don't have to be built to be mobile, lightweight, and cheap enough for an individual to buy means that all the effort went into improving efficiency and cost per watt. If you don't need to worry about the weigh of hauling around water, you can use your gas turbine's waste heat to run a steam turbine. And you can run at much higher temperatures than if you were running in a car, since you're now water cooled, and investing more into a single turbine.
Any_Foundation_9034 t1_iutvceo wrote
Not trying to be a wise ass but look: “Charging stations are powered by whatever the power grid runs on, which might include oil, coal, and natural gas. If you want to ensure that your car is powered by renewable energy, you'll need to seek out charging stations that are powered by wind or solar.”
So I don’t see how this is any better or doing what they keep saying it is intended to do.
Not to mention the energy that is used to mine the lithium and other things that these battery operated cars require.
[deleted] t1_iurijcs wrote
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Oriin690 t1_iutlynj wrote
Putting aside that seems like absurd pricing per vehicle, we could greatly reduce busing needs with expanded and better biking infrastructure. If we had more protected bike paths older children could reasonably and safely bike to school instead of bus. You could maybe even combine that with the existing citi bike service I imagine.
[deleted] t1_iux5lnq wrote
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Oriin690 t1_iuy9a8t wrote
Tbh I always forgets about the snow but that's a problem other cities have dealt with. In particular we should look at the Netherlands, where 75 percent of children below the age of 12 bike to school (many with parents to be clear especially the younger ones).
In the Netherlands this article talks about snow. Essentially they have a prepared winter maintenance network to clean the bike lanes quickly and in order of priority, somewhat similar in idea I think to the winter street network we already have here to clean the roads since that horrible winter a few years ago where everything was snowed in for like a week.
As for ages, in the Netherlands many children bike from ages 6-9 with their parents, and after that often alone. A strange idea I know in the US where children are rarely let out alone, but that's not actually due to the danger of strangers, but rather due to the rise of suburbia and car culture designed cities https://youtu.be/oHlpmxLTxpw . Which is also why NYC is a bit of an exception to this already with arguably the only real public transport service.
https://www.hollandbiketours.com/news/how-do-dutch-children-learn-to-ride-their-bikes-in-traffic/
https://mobycon.com/updates/the-five-pillars-of-dutch-children-cycling/
>when having to travel more than a couple of miles, especially in the winter
First of all students should not have to travel miles to get to school within nyc. The city is dense there should be at least one school within a mile of people if not multiple.
Admittedly most students who use the bus are going to a school of preferred choice in another neighborhood but even taking that into account the average school bus commute is 20 minutes in NYC. Bikes are signficantly faster than buses with (less stops plus speed limits plus acceleration) so that's only 10 minutes via bike give or take 3~4 minutes depending on the bike and assuming good bike lanes.
Second of all you could even add in Ebikes. Ebikes are incredible, they require far less effort to peddle and are also faster, although I would stick with regular bikes since it's good exercise. I recently tried one for the first time (the nice white citi bike one) and rode in a circle around the entire Central Park easily and I'm out of shape. They are straight up just better than cars except in terms of safety when on car dominated roads.
Really the biggest concerns are the demographics of students using buses. Just under half are homeless. I'm not sure whether it makes sense to offer them bikes as an alternative. It seems to me it'd be superior since they get a free bike to transport them around in general. On the other hand they likely might not have the space or security to keep it. So I'll assume it wouldnt work for most of them although I'd guess at least some could.
Plus amongst the remaining half a significant number take the bus due to disabilities. Obviously these disabilities would prevent biking. Although I imagine there could be special ebikes for some disabled people.
TLDR: bike paths can be maintained in winter, older children (above 9) can bike on their own if we create better bike lanes with a more expansive network, and bikes can easily transport students as far as a bus would take them within nyc.
However after reading about bus demographics in NYC it seems bikes don't make sense for many if not the majority of the students who use school buses anyways.
edags8 t1_iutttt0 wrote
It’d also be dope if public transit was safe and expansive enough to take kids to school throughout the boroughs… making the buses electric doesn’t solve our car dependency
FigTheFoxxx t1_iuusgql wrote
Thank god. School busses are some of the nastiest polluters in my neighborhood. Those fumes just hang in the air.
mortimus411 t1_iv6m9x2 wrote
Sick priorities!
deelo89 t1_iupvhml wrote
I'm sure maintenance costs are much more as well
foradil t1_iupxpum wrote
There are fewer moving parts, so less maintenance.
JBMPropertyMgmtLLC t1_iuqrzgp wrote
He said maintenance cost. Not the amount of labor for maintenance. They are related, but different.
ShinyGodzilla t1_iupcae4 wrote
How will the electricity generated to power these electric school busses? Will the batteries in these electric school busses be ethically sourced? What is the estimated net environmental impact of electric school bus vs a standard diesel schoolbus over the lifetime operation of the veichle?
fadsag t1_iupjrkb wrote
> How will the electricity generated to power these electric school busses?
Even a coal or oil plant is much more efficient at producing energy to charge batteries than small engines on busses, due to economies of scale (and thermodynamics).
franny123 t1_iuqqorw wrote
Economies of scale??? Think you just used a buzz word without knowing the meaning or how it applied. If it was based in a coherent idea you didn’t explain it
Aviri t1_iuqwkiv wrote
Economies of scale is a pretty basic phrase in business/engineering. It essentially means as you get bigger things can be made more efficient. It’s why we have centralized power plants instead of a personal gas generator in everyone’s home as our main method of electric generation, it’s just more efficient energy wise to have one big plant.
fadsag t1_iurbz6s wrote
Sure.
So, first off, you're familiar with the concept of a heat engine?
Power plants running on steam turbines and internal combustion engines are both heat engines. A power plant running on fossil fuel is typically running on a combined cycle, which runs the combustion gasses through a Brayton Cycle. The exhaust heats water, and runs the steam through a Rankine cycle as the bottoming cycle. This reclaims energy that would be wasted from the Brayton cycle's exhaust. The efficiency of the Brayton cycle is related to the pressure ratios at the inlet and outlet of the turbine, and the efficiency of the Rankine cycle is related to the heat flow across the turbine.
An internal combustion is running on the Otto cycle. The efficiency of the Otto cycle is related to the compression ratio of the engine.
A single stationary large turbine can not only be constructed strongly enough to handle much higher pressures at the inlet than would be practical in a moving vehicle, and handle much higher temperatures and pressures of superheated steam. It's possible to effectively put two engines together teaming up on the same power source if space and weight is less of a constraint. Furthermore, fuel can be burned in larger, more efficient furnaces outside the engine, with fewer moving parts, and at higher temperatures. That also allows bumping up the variables that control the efficiency of the two processes. Because the engines aren't moving, there's no concern about the weight of the water used for the steam which powers the Rankine cycle or boosting the efficiency of the Brayton cycle by reducing the exhaust temperature, and thus pressure, at the output.
Combined together, these two cycles get pretty close to the maximum theoretical efficiency you'd get from a Carnot cycle.
At compression ratios that are practical to engineer, an internal combustion engine simply can't compete.
beershoes767 t1_iuqmn5h wrote
I disagree. Modern diesel engines with DEF are pretty efficient and much cleaner than the past.
fadsag t1_iur7a0b wrote
A modern high temperature combined-cycle power plant gets between 50% and 60% of the available chemical energy in the fuel. An electric motor is about 90% efficient in its typical operating regime.
The average internal combustion engine gets less than half that. High efficiency diesel gets close, but still falls short.
This means that even on dirty energy, a large scale power plant charging an electric vehicle is more effective at extracting energy from fossil fuels.
That's in the ideal case, on the highway. On top of that, an electric vehicle recharges its batteries when it brakes, and spends no energy when idling, which is important for city traffic, and (for buses) when stopping frequently at stops.
And unlike diesel, as we reduce the reliance on fossil fuels for power generation, the amount of pollution in the air reduces with electric vehicles, air quality increases for everyone, and quality of life increases.
Aviri t1_iuqwa9e wrote
It’s cleaner but still worse than electric. Here is an article with explained rational that shows that electric buses using current grid electricity are cleaner than diesel.
RetroZelda t1_iuphjbz wrote
Why not school supplies and raises for teachers first?
ShinyGodzilla t1_iupk94f wrote
> The city is using an $18.5 million grant from the Environmental Protection Agency with funds from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill to purchase 51 electric school buses.
false_cat_facts t1_iuqja6h wrote
EPA huh, you know.. batteries don't last forever, they degrade and then need to be replaced. Vehicle batteries are massive and costly$. Seems like a money pit for very little gained in terms of being environmentally conscious.
shotpun t1_ius5ayi wrote
you uh... you know all vehicles have batteries right. not just electric ones
false_cat_facts t1_iusaal0 wrote
All vehicles have a 12V battery. Electric vehicles even have a seperate 12V battery. The batteries I was referring to are the battery packs for specific electric vehicles. Do you know how many 12V batts it would take to make 1 Tesla battery pack?
fadsag t1_iut4t8n wrote
They last significantly longer than a tank of gas, and can recycle pretty effectively (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recycled-lithium-ion-batteries-can-perform-better-than-new-ones/). Over the lifetime of the battery, it's a net win.
false_cat_facts t1_iut918s wrote
What's the cost and life span of a Tesla battery pack. Let's say 10 years, cost of replacement is 20k....are you spending 2k a year in gas?? Most 12V batts have a 5 yr life expectancy
fadsag t1_iutdbww wrote
They've got a 300 to 500k mile life expectancy, which is about the lifetime of the whole car.
IAmGoingToSleepNow t1_iuqux26 wrote
$18.5mm out of a $40b is around 0.04% of the budget. Why not find that money elsewhere?
Apprehensive-Rice957 t1_iup6i8j wrote
i fucking hate this state
TinyTornado7 t1_iup83qo wrote
In what world are you offended over electric school buses
Mr3k t1_iup7tnm wrote
You should move
sirzoop t1_iupfa4q wrote
you hate it because they are spending money on school buses for children? lmao ok go move somewhere else
[deleted] t1_iy1a98k wrote
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[deleted] t1_iurnvny wrote
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actualtext t1_iup1vyi wrote
That’s $362,745 per bus. Some insight into that would be great. Without knowing what a school bus typically costs, that seems kind of high? Is it a NY price because you gotta charge the city more just cause l? Or is it just because electric buses are rarer and more expensive? Is it because of the batteries? Maybe something else? Hopefully over time they get cheaper.