Chromewave9 t1_iyjjgtq wrote on December 1, 2022 at 9:31 PM

Reply to comment by thebigsplat in New York and Singapore top the list of world’s most expensive cities in 2022 by Elandtrical

80% of the population lives in public housing by design. They have limited land space. Try raising a family in these HBD flats. It's tight as hell. Even for a couple, it's really tight.

Besides, people are using these HBD flats to flip. They get sold on a 99 year lease (similar to China, you don't physically own the rights to the housing unit. You're basically just a long-term renter) to Singaporean residents for $300k-500K (depending on the unit) but after five years, they're able to sell them in the resale market with many units going for $600-$1 million. Private rentals or housing is way more expensive so there are very few options, hence, why 80% live in HBD flats. You have a ton of people who basically just get their family to sign up for HBD flats and sell them after five years for guaranteed profit.

You'll hear that housing is one of the biggest issues in Singapore. The lack of space, high demand, and people being allowed to flip them is way worse than in America. In America, you can just move elsewhere. In Singapore, you have no choice.

thebigsplat t1_iyjpy3j wrote on December 1, 2022 at 10:15 PM

> Try raising a family in these HBD flats. It's tight as hell. Even for a couple, it's really tight.

I grew up in Singapore. On my mom's side they had three nuclear families + grandma living in one HDB flat with 2-3 kids each.

America has its own housing crisis. Singapore has basically solved homelessness, that's for one. You can just move elsewhere doesn't apply to everyone, and we all know that "just moving elsewhere" means giving up a lot of things, especially if you're a PoC.

There's a reason it costs more to live in Singapore and NYC than East St. Louis or Wichita.

Apart-Bad-5446 t1_iyk0x00 wrote on December 1, 2022 at 11:34 PM

It doesn't really cost more if you know what you're doing. AKA, shop at Malaysia. Housing is really the only thing truly expensive. Owning a car isn't a necessity because their public transportation is amazing.

America's housing crisis is because of NIMBY's. Not because there isn't enough land. That's why Singapore's housing is expensive. Either way, if NYC is too expensive for you, you can relocate to Florida, Texas, down South, etc., If you're retiring, many people eventually move away from cities and into suburban/rural-ish homes. Don't say it's not really an option because it is. In Singapore, if you're old, you have nowhere to go. I was quite alarmed by how old some people were but still working. Singapore is more of a "tough luck" situation if you're poor.

What works for Singapore doesn't work everywhere. A lack of housing in NYC/L.A. is because of again, NIMBY's.

thebigsplat t1_iyk3u07 wrote on December 1, 2022 at 11:55 PM

> I was quite alarmed by how old some people were but still working. Singapore is more of a "tough luck" situation if you're poor.

Are you really comparing that to America? Sure Singapore's worse for poor people if you don't consider the homeless passed out on every corner to be people. Of course housing is going to be expensive, but if you're poor the government puts you in an apartment for as little as $26 a month.

If I was poor and destitute it's absolutely no question where I'd want to be.

Apart-Bad-5446 t1_iyk6jgt wrote on December 2, 2022 at 12:16 AM

Lol. Come to NYC. NYCHA housing (while bad because the government sucks at running things) is basically free. You get $280 per person to buy food every month. A family of five gets over $1k for food stamps. If you're poor, you get free health insurance. I actually have lived in NYC and Singapore. You must not be aware of what NYC offers, honestly. NYC by far spends more on social programs than Singapore. It's just that Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world and the government knows how to run shit.

Singapore's population is also incredibly small with a large % of people being expats who are only there for business/huge financial banking services in Singapore. Let's not kid ourselves... The 'actual' population is much smaller.

Also, the homeless people in American cities are usually caused by drugs. Something that Singapore doesn't have to deal with as they are not located near the Southern border where drug trafficking is rampant.

Grass8989 t1_iyk8gvc wrote on December 2, 2022 at 12:30 AM

All facts.

thebigsplat t1_iykb6da wrote on December 2, 2022 at 12:52 AM

Firstly, NYC isn't America.

Secondly, just like how there are gaps in my knowledge of the programs for poor here, you're talking like Singapore's government doesn't provide food stamps and the like for the poor? And NYCHA housing? That compared to Singapore's one BR flats are miles apart. When everyone lives in public housing there is no ghetto.

Singapore's government is better run yes, but NYC doesn't get plus points for De Blasio's wife making a billion dollars supposedly meant to help the mentally ill disppear into the ether.

Also this

> Singapore's population is also incredibly small with a large % of people being expats who are only there for business/huge financial banking services in Singapore. Let's not kid ourselves... The 'actual' population is much smaller.

It's not a mystery or anything. It's a population of about 3 million locals, expats make up a tiny number. The rest are temporary workers from poorer countries.

> Also, the homeless people in American cities are usually caused by drugs. Something that Singapore doesn't have to deal with as they are not located near the Southern border where drug trafficking is rampant.

Yeah again you don't really get it. New York is a thousand miles from the Southern Border, about the same distance from Singapore to the Golden Triangle.

Lastly homelessness by drugs, jury's out on that - but I'm no expert so whatever.

Apart-Bad-5446 t1_iykoq8c wrote on December 2, 2022 at 2:37 AM

I never said NYC isn't America but Singapore is a country. Hence, why I said what works for Singapore doesn't work for other countries. What worked for Norway hasn't worked for Venezuela despite both countries having vast resources of oil. It's much easier to run a homogenous country with just a few million citizens than it is to run 330 million people all being managed in different states with each state having their own separate values, tax structure, etc.,

NYCHA is proof that the governments suck at running stuff in America. It's also a cultural thing but I won't get into that. Singaporeans follow the laws very closely. NYC, not exactly the same. The government owns the property, leases it, and people are allowed to flip it. NYCHA doesn't have that, hence, people don't really care for their property which means people piss on the elevators, break stuff, don't clean, etc.,

I can assure you Singapore doesn't spend more than NYC on social programs. Again, the factor here seems to be money. NYC spends more than any city on social programs when you account for education, healthcare, etc., NYC spends $30k per student annually from K-12. No other country comes close. It's just inefficiently spent and a very corrupt government overall which you yourself highlighted. Thing is, Singapore manages a few million people. Brooklyn+Queens alone has a higher population than Singapore.

30% of a country's population being expat is tiny? Hmmmm...

New York could be a thousand miles from the Southern border but the drugs coming from the Southern border means you can easily transport those drugs to other states... I think YOU don't get it. Try transporting the drugs from Mexico or South/Central America to Singapore... You're telling me there isn't a difference? Once it gets past the Southern border, getting it to NY is the easy part because the logistics becomes much easier. The bottleneck is the border - not crossing state lines.

As for the homeless statistic, I said usually. The study you linked shows that it's high in areas with high housing prices. Again, caused by NIMBY's. If you're unfamiliar with that term, it's because people who own property with high valuations do not want their property prices to decline with more housing. Aka, artificially increase the price of housing. Many homeless people move to California because of the warm weather and lenient policies toward homelessness.

Anyways, I'm not here to slight Singapore. I loved visiting there. Not as much as Malaysia but the crime is low, food is pretty cheap, and it's very clean with great transportation. But what works for Singapore doesn't work for NYC. And what works for NYC, doesn't work for Singapore. You initiate policies based on what fits your people. I'm just saying the housing crisis in Singapore is due to a lack of land. The housing crisis in NYC is due to NIMBY's and politicians. You have NIMBY's who don't want high rise buildings because it blocks sunlight from entering their home and then environmentalists come out and start causing mayhem which means nothing gets built.

thebigsplat t1_iykqb72 wrote on December 2, 2022 at 2:49 AM

Yeah I don't think I disagree with much of what you said - just a misunderstanding. I'm saying there's more effective spending in Singapore vs NYC. The money in this city, it all disappears into some bottomless pit or is inefficiently spent like you said.

> 30% of a country's population being expat is tiny?

Do you count workers from poorer countries working in construction as expats? If so then yes they're expats, I was under the impression that expats only referred to highly paid workers contributing to the knowledge economy.

> The study you linked shows that it's high in areas with high housing prices. Again, caused by NIMBY's.

Totally in agreement - just confused because you said it's due to drugs when my understanding was it was due to home prices, and a lot of the people take up drugs on the streets.

Malaysia though? Man. That's another place with a stupendously large amount of money and a sad amount of poverty. It all disappears into a bottomless pit in Malaysia and people suffer.