Comments
nonlawyer t1_j0z9vyl wrote
I believe I have a solution for this “controversy:”
Parents who are concerned about their children attending drag queen story hour should not bring their children to drag queen story hour
There, that should solve it.
(Unless of course all this noise isn’t actually about “protecting children” at all.)
cornbruiser t1_j0z9x9q wrote
Bottcher.
nonlawyer t1_j0za13z wrote
> This is a hate group, not a normal confluence of "concerned" parents.
From interviews I’ve seen with these mouthbreathers lots of them don’t even have kids
EDIT: also holy shit how did I miss the neckbeard with a pedo ‘stache and a fedora and the “stop grooming kids for sex” sign, you can’t make this shit up.
GothamGumby t1_j0za48o wrote
Agreed. Similar to if the class is doing a holiday party activity that doesn't align with your beliefs, keep the kid out of class, school for that day
Dan_Dead_Or_Alive t1_j0zbhlx wrote
Someone looking like that is probably implying that you should put a ring on it.
nonlawyer t1_j0zbmio wrote
I mean fair, but this is even further removed from that example since it’s at a library on a Saturday, not during school, so it’s super easy to just… not go
nonlawyer t1_j0zbt8s wrote
His hand is covering the fine print on the sign saying “because that’s my job”
mowotlarx OP t1_j0zc7ni wrote
Oh wow, they did spell his name wrong throughout! Good catch. It is in fact Erik Bottcher. He documented the whole event on his Twitter account
GothamGumby t1_j0zegq7 wrote
Oh I thought this was a school library. Yeah I just wouldn't take my kids there if it is offensive. It's like me being Muslim and being outraged at the Rockefeller center tree lighting. If it isn't my beliefs I don't need to involve myself in it
mowotlarx OP t1_j0zhl3y wrote
This is the second comment I've seen suggesting that hate speech and slurs on your home or workplace don't count if they're written in chalk. That's a new one.
huebomont t1_j0zigqf wrote
i see we have one of the pedocons here to speak for themselves!
stork38 t1_j0zkl4g wrote
I mean, it's not cool...but using the word vandalism is misleading if the damage can be undone by rain
mowotlarx OP t1_j0zl5pc wrote
If someone smears shit on your doorstep because they don't like that you're gay or black or any other protected category, is that OK because it can just be washed away?
This is an awful big reach to excuse people showing up to someone's house in the dark of night, attempting to break in, assaulting his neighbors and writing hate speech targeting him outside his home.
NetQuarterLatte t1_j0zlaf7 wrote
>The NYPD said two people were arrested after somehow getting into Blottcher's building. Charges are pending.
Great.
I can't help but wonder if any anti-NYPD folks out there believe the police shouldn't be handling this. Send the social workers?
mowotlarx OP t1_j0zm8b2 wrote
People criticizing the NYPD for doing a bad job want them to do a better job, actually. Like investigating and arresting people who commit hate crimes. This whole "well don't criticize cops if you want them to do what they're being paid to do" strawman is so tired.
stork38 t1_j0zmg25 wrote
> is that OK because it can just be washed away?
Try reading my comment a little slower next time
IllTransportation141 t1_j0zmnmd wrote
Defund the police was just a collective fever dream?
mowotlarx OP t1_j0zn356 wrote
Did the NYPD ever get defunded??
Sounds like a fever dream the right wing glommed on to and pretended was actually a threat. Anyway, how about the NYPD budget that is larger this year than it's ever been, and will be even bigger next year!
mowotlarx OP t1_j0znecm wrote
I read exactly what you wrote. You posed that if hate speech can be "washed away with rain" , then it's somehow not vandalism and not a criminal act. Vandalism doesn't need to be destruction, it can also be defacing.
sanspoint_ t1_j0znt2q wrote
It's also worth noting that these assholes draw no distinction between drag performers and transgender women. As far as they're concerned it's all the same.
NetQuarterLatte t1_j0zope7 wrote
>People criticizing the NYPD for doing a bad job want them to do a better job, actually. Like investigating and arresting people who commit hate crimes. This whole "well don't criticize cops if you want them to do what they're being paid to do" strawman is so tired.
We have too many prominent people with excessive hypocrisy who will criticize the police and at the same time be against concrete measures to improve the police.
That, in my mind, puts a new perspective on strawmans.
poboy212 t1_j0zorf6 wrote
No, we just want NYPD to actually do their job. This is such a shitty argument.
poboy212 t1_j0zozyf wrote
NYPD should still handle actual crimes, like this. All you have is this shitty straw man argument.
BiblioPhil t1_j0zpd98 wrote
I'm not sure how similar that really is.
This isn't in a school where children legally need to attend, and it isn't a religious event.
BiblioPhil t1_j0zpvwf wrote
Because otherwise it's not bad, or...?
NetQuarterLatte t1_j0zqb7y wrote
>Anyway, how about the NYPD budget that is larger this year than it's ever been, and will be even bigger next year!
How about our own D politicians, who criticize the police plenty, but are still voting against the Law Enforcement De-Escalation Training Act? (House vote last week)
https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2022525
[deleted] t1_j0zr2p0 wrote
George4Mayor86 t1_j0zr4zg wrote
Pretty much, yeah. It was a fringe slogan that translated into zero actual policy.
SnottNormal t1_j0zsqai wrote
What concrete measures are thrown out beyond "give them more money?"
mowotlarx OP t1_j0zvnmt wrote
So you agree the police in NYC and elsewhere have not been defunded, right?
AnacharsisIV t1_j0zvntc wrote
Pretty sure the language was born from the old 4chan adjacent internet streamer "ShoeOnHead." Qanon and Proudboys just took it from her.
NetQuarterLatte t1_j0zyf35 wrote
>What concrete measures are thrown out beyond "give them more money?"
Take this bill for example, see if you can guess which NYC Democract voted against it: https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2022525
MillennialNightmare t1_j0zz881 wrote
> The bill also directs DOJ to make grants to states for costs associated with providing the training to law enforcement officers or mental health professionals.
Oh you mean the bill that gives them more money.
SnottNormal t1_j100c5u wrote
This is federal, not NYC. And my rep is a Republican who voted against it. She's really the only rep I'm directly concerned with. And it does throw an extra $100m+ at the problem.
That said, de-escalation training is a great idea in theory. It shouldn't have to come down from the feds. This is a city problem, but everyone is so scared of the cop unions (probably rightfully so) that nothing's gonna change.
CMDR-ProtoMan t1_j100ljt wrote
> Unless of course all this noise isn’t actually about “protecting children” at all.
It's not and never was about the children, because if that were really the case, the catholic church would be getting protested at all the time
NetQuarterLatte t1_j1018cl wrote
>[...] providing the training to law enforcement officers or mental health professionals.
​
>Oh you mean the bill that gives them more money.
To address one of the exact things anti-police folks criticize.
mowotlarx OP t1_j101iry wrote
The legal definition of vandalism includes defacing. It includes things that require cleaning as well as repair.
mowotlarx OP t1_j102170 wrote
Who is "them"?
werdnak84 t1_j10276p wrote
State elected officials.
mowotlarx OP t1_j102i9k wrote
He's a city elected official. And what are they targeting "them" for? Is Vickie Paladino also having this same group break into her home, assault her neighbors and write hate speech outside the door?
Hammrsigpi t1_j102sev wrote
It goes back to Anita Bryant, Jerry Falwell and such. Old trope. https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/06/23/lgbtq-groomers-smear-campaign/
werdnak84 t1_j102wx3 wrote
READ THE ARTICLE!!!!! MY GOD!!!!!
mowotlarx OP t1_j1035kf wrote
I did. Did you?
I don't see the statement from the hate group to the media about how they're going after All Of Them.
werdnak84 t1_j103hlo wrote
YES!!! IT'S ABOUT AN OFFICIAL'S HOME BEING VANDALIZED!!!! HE WAS TARGETED!!!! THAT'S BEING TARGETED!!!!!
nonlawyer t1_j103ki1 wrote
I don’t think so, AFAIK the “groomer” stuff was spearheaded by the usual suspects on the right like Chris Rufo and Jack Pobosiec, starting around the time Disney criticized the Florida “Don’t Say Gay” law. The same folks who were behind the CRT moral panic the year prior.
Shoe sometimes winks at QAnon-adjacent stuff despite calling herself a socialist, but I don’t think she started this one
[deleted] t1_j1057w1 wrote
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Aviri t1_j105drs wrote
I guess they bottched it the first time
stork38 t1_j107xin wrote
There is no such law on the New York books called vandalism. There is a law called criminal mischief though, and it requires actual damage. If you're going to lock whoever wrote this, you'll also have to lock up little kids who play hopscotch by your twisted logic.
darthTharsys t1_j107zgd wrote
It also gained a ton of traction from Chaya Raichik (LibsofTikTok). She is full of hate for anything lgbtq
mowotlarx OP t1_j10b9q6 wrote
You think writing hate speech and slurs outside the home of a gay politician is the same as kids drawing a hop scotch game?
mowotlarx OP t1_j10be3a wrote
I'm not sure why you're yelling on caps and speaking in circles. They didn't target "all of them" they targeted a gay city council member.
Firebird12301 t1_j10bg0h wrote
Some of those protesters likely don’t even have kids. That was a recurring theme at a lot of school board protests where some of the people showing up didn’t even have children in the district.
stork38 t1_j10bvhy wrote
The message still doesn't make it vandalism. What don't you understand?
mowotlarx OP t1_j10easi wrote
You're being dense.
If you refuse to acknowledge that things that can be washed away are considered vandalism, feel free to look up hate crime laws in this state.
MillennialNightmare t1_j10el3y wrote
The point is there shouldn’t need to be a dedicated DOJ grant for this, it should be something departments across the country include in their academies and on an ongoing basis.
Gb_packers973 t1_j10essv wrote
Yea i really dont see the difference between this and dragging kids to see an R rated film.
Who cares if parents want to expose their kids to different or adult topics - its allowed.
Now physical risk or injury? Thats a different story
Texas_Rockets t1_j10fz8m wrote
I hate that these articles never say what actually happened so I can’t judge for myself.
[deleted] t1_j10h2lh wrote
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NetQuarterLatte t1_j10jgwy wrote
Why? Is violence de-escalation different across cities?
A deranged person in NYC will escalate violence much differently than a person in Seattle?
NetQuarterLatte t1_j10jmzq wrote
It’s a national problem, no?
Unless you’re trying to say it’s not.
Do you believe that lack of de-escalation training is a problem that only happens in a few US cities?
mowotlarx OP t1_j10jz94 wrote
It says exactly what happens, including subsequent arrested, and provides Twitter links for more insight.
Texas_Rockets t1_j10k7wo wrote
But they don’t say in the article what the hate speech was. That term can mean different things to different people.
And it’s true that the twitter link has pics of it but the article doesn’t say what it was is my point.
mowotlarx OP t1_j10kdut wrote
It literally links to the tweet with images of what was written. You wanted them to quote the hate speech that was written? Journalists tend to avoid doing that for obvious reasons.
And no, the terms don't mean different things to different people. They're calling him those things because he is gay.
The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups and hate crimes, has well documented show these right wing groups have been targeting LGBTQ people by calling them "groomers" and "pedos." This isn't up to interpretation.
SnottNormal t1_j10kdz5 wrote
...we're talking specifically about the NYPD? They're a city problem, not a national one.
Yes, lack of de-escalation training is national problem. That's also not the conversation we were having.
NetQuarterLatte t1_j10lemq wrote
And federal funding that would have also helped NYC... is not a good thing?
The same de-escalation training material and standards they develop at the federal level can help NYC and many other cities.
I don't see why each city needs to replicate the same work.
Flash_Bandicoot t1_j10mhqd wrote
Why is putting drag queens in front of children a hill lefties want to die on?
Wowzlul t1_j10p95t wrote
That's the key point that makes me nervous. I can't exactly take this off like a costume at the end of the day. If one of these assholes clocks me...
mowotlarx OP t1_j10t4cy wrote
American children are at most danger in their own homes from their own family members. Why are you all projecting so hard? The calls coming from inside the house.
Distinct_Molasses234 t1_j10v0jb wrote
What did they write?
sanspoint_ t1_j10vqpu wrote
Same. Fucking same.
Distinct_Molasses234 t1_j10vxa8 wrote
James Lindsay is the one who made it take off on Twitter with his “ok groomer” Tweets.
Distinct_Molasses234 t1_j10w3gv wrote
They were following James Lindsay. Lindsay is unknown by most but he was the one who laid the groundwork for the anti-woke movement on Twitter.
MillennialNightmare t1_j10x7uz wrote
No idea what you’re even asking here. Police departments need to do this training, that’s not in dispute. The federal government shouldn’t dedicate resources to funding it.
nonlawyer t1_j10xhcw wrote
Riiight. I was trying to remember the name of that turd.
Despite all the groomer bullshit, no one will be surprised that he was friendly with a sex cult leader
[deleted] t1_j10y1xd wrote
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NetQuarterLatte t1_j10yce1 wrote
So each department should duplicate the work of developing the training curriculum and standards for de-escalation?
But regardless of that, why are you against federal funding that can help improve things in NYC and other cities? This is an issue that impacts every city in the nation.
Distinct_Molasses234 t1_j10yyaa wrote
I used to be a Lindsay fan but he went seriously bonkers sometime around mid-2020.
MillennialNightmare t1_j10zz3i wrote
Every training and every program doesn’t need additional funding to be carried out.
The program should absolutely be developed, that’s not in question, but federal funding shouldn’t be dedicated to funding the training across the country. There’s zero reason that can’t be incorporated into existing academy training.
ninyabruja t1_j1116og wrote
I was in 5th grade in CA when the Briggs initiative was on the ballot. My teacher would have lost his job had it passed.
BraveSirZaphod t1_j116iza wrote
You're right, it's really putting priests and ministers in front of children that should be concerning.
Since like, sex crimes by the clergy is actually a documented phenomenon.
NetQuarterLatte t1_j116uox wrote
It has to require extra funding.
Unless we can somehow make the training happen for free and in the officer's free time (without pay).
That has to come from somewhere.
Edit: so it seems that the argument boils down to a variant of "fuck the NYPD".
SnottNormal t1_j119tg0 wrote
Reallocate funds. The NYPD isn't hurting for money.
MillennialNightmare t1_j11cdk7 wrote
The NYPD has a multi billion dollar budget. They can figure it out.
user_joined_just_now t1_j11jb10 wrote
> Like investigating and arresting people who commit hate crimes.
Sure, investigate and arrest people who commit non-violent hate crimes, while simultaneously bemoaning the fact that we lock up too many people for non-violent crimes. On the other hand, for people on their 5th arrest for a violent crime, carceral justice is not the solution, and we need to instead address the root causes by increasing access to public pools and social services.
Flash_Bandicoot t1_j11kw6e wrote
I don't think priests should be proselytizing in public libraries either.
Timmayyyyyyy t1_j11n4on wrote
You’re right, we should take all children out of their homes. And put them in front of twerking men at Drag Queen Story Hour, you’re an inclusive hero to us all.
BraveSirZaphod t1_j11qfcc wrote
They directly accused him of being a pedophile and child predator.
Calling gay men pedophiles, shockingly original.
mowotlarx OP t1_j11t0ow wrote
You're right, the right wing should focus all their attention on the people least likely to harm their or anyone's kids to divert attention. That'll really Save The Children!
[deleted] t1_j11v2vs wrote
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CHECK_FLOKI t1_j124fnf wrote
This is not new. Proud boys and QAnon and their media personalities like Elon and Kanye have bred a new generation of “anti conformists“ who are getting bolder in their hateful rhetoric and action.
mowotlarx OP t1_j128gx3 wrote
>Least likely to harm their or anyone’s kids
What is this worst salad even trying to say?
Halfhand84 t1_j12je2s wrote
These people are dangerous and delusional and need close monitoring, preferably inside a jail cell.
Mark my words, more innocent people are going to get killed if this city and this nation don't come down hard on the right wing hate groups and start making some scary examples.
How many more have to die needlessly?
Texas_Rockets t1_j139mla wrote
The term hate speech means something different to different people. Im not saying this was not hate speech. I’m saying you can’t just tell me it’s hate speech and expect me to be like ‘well guess it was hate speech’. The media does not get to determine that for me.
I read an article to read what happened, not to get a link to what happened.
Journalists don’t repeat it because some people (who have a not insubstantial presence on this subreddit) subscribe to the belief that referring to something someone said makes you just as bad as the person saying it, but because the crowd who gets sensitive over that is so neurotic about so many things it’s impossible to know what the journalist would get in trouble for repeating. So they play it safe.
[deleted] t1_j13i99j wrote
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oy_says_ake t1_j140fzl wrote
Nypd’s budget is bloated, especially given their performance.
E.g. they buy new squad cars every 3 years whether they need them or not, and meanwhile to actually do their jobs we’d be better off with them walking or using bikes/scooters/etc in most cases, especially since they’ve been doing virtually no enforcement of traffic violations post-pandemic.
Yet for some reason they always escape budget cuts while we chop away at libraries and social services.
oy_says_ake t1_j14236a wrote
I honestly don’t see the appeal of drag queen story hours and have never taken my kids to one. I also don’t see the appeal of church and have never taken my kids there.
I don’t turn out to protest either event, but churches are way more prevalent and way more associated with actual child abuse.
Really though, these protesters are way out of line and need to be slapped in the face by reality. First off, their conduct is inappropriate and they should face official sanction. Beyond that, their priorities are absurd. They’re flipping out about something completely harmless, and meanwhile we as a species are busy actively destroying our habitat and putting the viability of our continued survival at risk.
LoneStarTallBoi t1_j146wvr wrote
Feel like the better question is why is it a hill right wingers want to kill people on.
[deleted] t1_j18fth6 wrote
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mowotlarx OP t1_j0yv4wt wrote
If If anyone wants to know why right wing nut jobs have been targeting Drag Queens and LGBTQ+ folks, just know this specific movement you're now seeing in NYC and the exact language they use ("groomer" being the most popular) was born directly from the Proud Boys and Qanon..
The movement in NYC specifically really took hold among conspiracy theories who met at anti-vax protests who call themselves "Guardians of Divinity."
This is a hate group, not a normal confluence of "concerned" parents. And we've seen this people in our NYC subs using the exact same lingo. It's not a coincidence.
Edit: Erik Bottcher posted video of this hate group attacking his neighbor on the street as they were covering the street with anti-gay hate speech