Edward Jones sold me

Submitted by Cautious_Second7321 t3_zz2uko in personalfinance

I have been investing on my own for years and over time have learned a lot about investing. My wife and her dad use Edward Jones and seems pretty happy being hands off. Her dad actually retired and lives very happily.

My dad, was a big finance guy (CFO, CEO, Masters in finance, etc, for some large companies) who managed his own investments. Always told me not to let anyone else manage your money because it’s easy. I would agree with him and have seen great returns.

That being said, my dad never retired because he never had a plan, only money invested and managed himself. He also, lost a lot of money and despite being worth 6 million+ at one time and always employed with a large salary, when he passed he ended up leaving only about 1 million to my mom (he gave me access to his accounts many years before he passed in case anything ever happened to him. I never looked until he passed and my mom needed help). I found this shocking considering how much he worked and how much he was paid.

While I can invest on my own, I want a set age for when I will retire and also want to be told “here’s how much you have to spend each year” “here’s where you will withdraw it from” and how that all works.”

I’ve heard people say, “go to Schwab or Vanguard” but for what? I was with Vanguard and they didn’t give me any financial advice. Just brokerage accounts which I eventually moved to E*Trade.

Anyway, curious what people think as i’m very close to moving to EJ even though I would have to pay a lot to move my money initially and the fees.

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Rxpert83 t1_j296615 wrote

You've learned to invest yourself. Learning how to calculate when you have enough and how much you can withdraw to not run out of money is just as easy.

You get to keep the fees too, which over 30 years is a LOT.

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j297g9k wrote

That’s fair. I’m not really sure how to even approach that portion if investing. Just don’t want to get down the road and realize i’m in the same position as my dad.

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Beach_Mountain50 t1_j2ddwfk wrote

JFC, man. Save up $6M like your dad and then buy an annuity and that will tell you how much you can spend every year. If you have a spouse, get it with survivorship. Problem solved. Now pay me 1% of your $6M annually.

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FireBreather7575 t1_j298q1k wrote

I’m not sure what the problem is with how your father passed. He had a bunch of money and spent it. Maybe that was his plan. Knowing how much you can withdraw (3-4%) is kind of easy for someone who knows the basics of investing. You haven’t provided any details that day he didn’t retire because nobody told him he had enough money

I’m not sure what you’re hoping to get out of EJ other than a false sense of security.

In terms of your wife’s family being happy with EJ - based on what? For someone handing off wealth management, they have no basis of comparison. Are they comparing their returns to the market? It’s like evaluating a doctor - for the most part, outside of bedside manner, how can you evaluate if someone’s doing a good job? A doctor who had a patient die from cancer may be doing a better job than one whose patient lived

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j29cin6 wrote

Agree with the withdrawing 3-4%. But from which accounts and how taxes play into that decision is what boggles me.

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FireBreather7575 t1_j29e30q wrote

I don’t know how complicated your portfolio is, but my guess is you can do enough research to get close enough. You don’t have to optimize perfectly. I don’t think EJ will optimize perfectly. I assume with little research, you’ll beat them, post fees.

In terms of spending down, yes the conventional wisdom is 3-4%. This basically keeps your principal value the same. But you can also go crazy and why not try to optimize by dying with zero. What would have been the point of your dad dying with 6m vs 1m? I’m not saying that’s right for you, that could have just been the decision he made

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j29gjxc wrote

Ah gotcha. Yea, two different ways of thinking I suppose. You could say he did it right. Lived the life he wanted to and didn’t wait for the retirement he never would have seen anyway. He nailed it. However, he did say he failed my mom at the end. Which leads me to believe he did not feel he did a good job including her in a retirement plan which relied quite a bit on him getting a salary at the end.

Appreciate your perspective!

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j29c7ur wrote

I always thought it would be wiser when you have that much money, to live off of the interest rather than just spending all of your cash.

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ScoDucks89 t1_j29hwm5 wrote

I dont understand why anyone would pay someone else to invest their money when you could literally just buy VTI and fall asleep at the wheel and come out of your dream a millionaire.

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j29kso9 wrote

You’re not wrong. It’s not all about investing. I get great returns i’m happy with and agree with you 100%.

It’s the plan, course of action and knowing when you can retire. How much and from which accounts can I withdraw money from each year during retirement in a strategic way. What are the tax implications. Am I investing enough do I need to do more, etc.

I’m basically just maxing out a 401K and IRA each year not knowing where that will get me.

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UMfan11244 t1_j2ac6z2 wrote

Listen, if you can withdraw 2.5-3.5% per year and cover your expenses, you can likely retire. Remember to plan for things like Social Security, and pensions, and healthcare, and you’ll be just fine. Don’t overcomplicate this. EJ advisors are just salesmen.

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j2b9ihv wrote

Dumb question, but when you say remember to plan for things like SS, pensions and healthcare, i’m assuming SS/pensions as income and healthcare as an expense?

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UMfan11244 t1_j2bm9c9 wrote

Yup, usually. Although, pension plans have healthcare that is greatly reduced in cost. So you just need to know what you are eligible for specifically.

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j2bv00y wrote

When you withdraw that 2.5-3.5% doesn’t it complicated depending on if you withdraw from pretax or after tax accounts?

So, let’s say year 1 of retirement I withdraw 3.5% of $1,000,000 ($35,000) wouldn’t I be hit with taxes at the 22% rate on the 35K?

I know everyone says it’s easy, but am I thinking about this the right way?

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UMfan11244 t1_j2bw0fw wrote

Yes, you are. Taxes would have to be included in your annual expense estimate. Keep in mind, if your income is low Social Security will not be taxed.

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Rxpert83 t1_j2c34a9 wrote

Remember taxes are progressive. You aren't changed 22% on the entire amount. Only on the amount above the previous tax bracket.

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Zealousideal_Baker84 t1_j293ont wrote

You have to pay for the Vanguard Personal Services. .30bps for assets under management.

It’s ok. It’s cheap and the offerings are Vanguard so an automatic win.

Edward Jones and the ilk will try to put you in annuities and other bs. Unsure about the fees. I don’t trust them though.

They’re not even fiduciary.

I’ve tried personal capital and it was overly complicated and the returns were meh. The tech is good.

Vanguard is boring as fuck. But good. But the tech is atrocious. Like 2003 level app and interface.

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j2949hk wrote

Interesting about the Vanguard Personal Services. I’ll have to check that out. They can answer all of those questions? What does .30bps mean? I’m not familiar with that.

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meamemg t1_j296160 wrote

To clarify, Vanguard charges 30bps, or 30 basis points, which is 0.30 percent. So for every $100,000 invested they charge $300.

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NorthofDakota t1_j29a4kq wrote

You would probably be better served by booking a couple of sessions with a fee only financial planner. Go over what you've been doing what your future goals are and they can help you lay out a plan to get there.

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Interesting-Dish8894 t1_j29djwq wrote

I would never go to Edward jones and pay their one plus percent managing fee and other fees and commissions they may have when all I’m doing is investing in a few funds that don’t require people do much besides rebalance once in an while and that takes twenty minutes or so.

And in a down market I’m definitely not rebalancing anything and selling for a loss unless I’m talking selling single stocks and that is going to be a small portion of my portfolio

I have tried to get my girlfriend to do a little research and manage her own stuff but she likes paying a lot of money to Edward jones

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Jacrispybrisket t1_j29lh9o wrote

I would not use Edward Jones personally. They charge much higher of a management fee compared to most advisors (can be as high as 125 bps) and the advisors that work there are very hit or miss as they make their money off of selling, not actually servicing. I would look for a CFP that carries a management fee below 1%. It’s not as much about the institution as it is the advisor.

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biffmaniac t1_j299j38 wrote

It sounds like your dad knew all the right answers and made his own choices. I can't really comment on his situation because he may have mismanaged his money, he may have followed his plan to the letter, he may have made less than you believed and this is just the reality.

It sounds like you also have the knowledge to make and follow a plan. I would not be looking at turning it over to Ed Jones. They can give you a plan (just like you have today and just like your dad had) and what you do with it is up to you. <pay us for the service please>.

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obie1cajoby t1_j29mdvz wrote

I've been a licensed financial planner (series 7 & 66) for 15 years. We aren't any better than just investing in low cost index funds. I tell this to my clients also. I invested my own money for years and grew it to about $100k. Then I learned how to invest into real estate and grew my portfolio to $1.3m. Learn how to buy real estate and use the proceeds to buy index funds. That's the best way to retire. I'm 40 now and feel like I could retire off real estate income tomorrow

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j29u1b1 wrote

Thanks for this response. That is awesome! Rentals or flipping renovations?

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obie1cajoby t1_j2ad5qg wrote

No flipping at all for me. I already have a job lol. I buy about 1 to 2 houses a year, which allows me to be really selective and buy better deals instead of buying at volume like flippers do.

So I try to buy houses under market value, fix them up to create equity and then rent them out. Eventually you refinance them.

Great example, bought a townhome for $170k cash directly from the owner (no realtor). It was worth $220k at the time but worked a great deal out for the seller. Rented it out for about $1200 a month. 6 month later it was worth $240k.

I refinanced and got a check for $170k. My rents also went up to $1300 a month with a loan payments and other expenses at $900 a month. So now I can go use that same $170k and buy another property while creating $70k worth of equity that continues to increase in value while the loan decreases and giving me tax shelters. If I could find that every year it would be amazing.

Nearly impossible to get that type of return in the stock market with astronomical risk.

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Educational-Buddy927 t1_j2b5lum wrote

You don’t have to move your investments to get the help you’re seeking. There are “advice only” financial planners who charge either hourly or a one time fee for a plan. Some focus on DIY investors. So you can get the answers/education you need without a long term commitment. Check out Napfa.com or XY Planning Network have search tools to help find one.

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CoolNebraskaGal t1_j2c41bz wrote

Edward Jones won't steal your money, but over time they will leech money from your portfolio without actually adding much value at all. You can maybe work with them more cheaply by keeping the funds you buy as low cost as possible, but EJ's entire business model charges a very large premium to "be hands off". People are very bad at judging financial advisors, because they can only analyze their effectiveness based on vibes. They trust them, they like them, they answer their questions and check in on them. They have no idea how to really determine if they bring more value than another institution or advisor.

No one in forums like this is going to give you positive feedback on EJ. Hating on EJ is their favorite pastime. And not undeserved. You just have to accept that you are paying a high premium for very little in return. You will still be well off because it's hard to screw up saving and investing for your future. But you will have less money if you pay out the ass for extra fees and higher expense ratios, which is exactly what you're signing up for with Edward Jones. You can look at expense ratio calculators to see for yourself, you may be shocked to see how much those fees add up (and that isn't including front load fees, or any other fees they charge you for the pleasure).

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[deleted] t1_j2961sb wrote

[removed]

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ElementPlanet t1_j298svu wrote

You have been warned before on prominently stating financial credentials which goes against rule 2. Also in there is a prohibition on asking for DMs. If it is something you should answer, it is something everyone on the sub should see to allow for a review and prevent scammers.

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nostratic t1_j2abab8 wrote

EJ or similar is fine for some people. maybe not ideal, but there are people who need more guidance and hand-holding. at least to start.

if that's what it takes to get you investing, investing with higher fees is better than no investing.

there is some data showing people with an advisor have superior long-term results of up to 3%/year. it's not from the advisor recommending any specific fund or investment, it's from behavioral coaching: don't panic when the market crashes, stick with the plan. don't put too much money in the hot trend of the moment (Tesla, bitcoin), just stick to the plan. https://advisors.vanguard.com/insights/article/IWE_ResPuttingAValueOnValue

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UMfan11244 t1_j2abi0v wrote

So what’s the problem?

Average out your expenses over a couple years, inflate by 1.5% per year, multiply by 25, aim to save that amount by retirement.

Okay, so it’s not that easy, but it’s really damn close.

Start tracking your expenses and identify what you need to save for retirement. Whatever you do, don’t give the con artists at EJ 2% to do it.

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FireBreather7575 t1_j2ac9lu wrote

I’m not sure what you mean not knowing where it will get you? Run some math in excel. Also do you have left over money to invest in a taxable brokerage?

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Cautious_Second7321 OP t1_j2bab6o wrote

I just don’t know what I need to include in excel, like inflation considerations etc. For me, the idea of missing one thing I should have included in excel is a little scary because it could end up being quite inaccurate over many years.

That’s sort if why i’m here. To get help from smarter people from me to piece this together.

So, thank you!

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FireBreather7575 t1_j2baju6 wrote

The guys at EJ are guessing just as much as you. Grow your portfolio 7% - 10% a year, assume your expenses increase 3% a year

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Acceptable-Regret398 t1_j2d97sa wrote

My parents use Edward Jones and have a great advisor there. He has helped them immensely, so I decided to do the same with a local branch. I had the worst experience ever. Horrible advice, I lost a ton of money and he basically ghosted me after our first meeting. Be very careful who you decide to work with.

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