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H00die5zn t1_je06bbz wrote

This is hardly the last straw, but Im truly confused as to what this culture is elevating and what the priorities are.


Scumandvillany t1_je0k52f wrote

Until the priority is placed upon solving violent crimes, making arrests and presenting solid cases, this will continue to happen. This "dope on the table, guns on the twitter, stop and frisk" attitude does not and will not get the job done. The department needs to shift to call response, foot patrols, bike patrols, community engagement, and HEAVY on investigations and the capacity to conduct them in a modern, successful way.

The issue is, of course, fat boi mcnesby and the majority of the police department that agrees that krasner is the problem and they're "doing their jobs well-when they're 'allowed' to do them". That, plus the police contract severely limits personnel reassignment etc, and the commish/mayor/brass do not have the intelligence or fortitude to even make the basic realignments necessary, nor the vision or ability to call for the forensics, the cameras, and the tech needed to successfully catch these murderers.



Chimpskibot t1_je0kyds wrote

Really need to bring back foot patrols and cops walking a beat imo. Getting ingratiated with the community and being present in neighborhoods not playing candy crush in their cars.


Lunamothknits t1_je0m0z2 wrote

They’re supposed to be walking beats. They never went away, the districts just got lazy.


ChowderSam t1_je0qf2p wrote

The man power went down. Walk with what cops? And still maintain cops in cars to answer calls?


AOLpassword t1_je0sqns wrote

They're not answering calls. They're shopping at Target and posting on Facebook.


Lunamothknits t1_je11xax wrote

...are you excusing districts for quite literally not doing what they're supposed to do? Manpower is down everywhere. There's still plenty to walk beats. They're hiding inside at a desk with sore knees.

Those boots can't taste good, man.


Mewnicorns t1_je2yfvy wrote

I’m new to this city and the lack of cops on foot patrol was something I noticed almost immediately. Since you say “bring back,” that suggests to me it hasn’t always been like this?


Eaglesby100 t1_je46hqo wrote

But then you people would complain and compare it to a police state. Whatever happened to personal liability?


sagittariisXII t1_je08qd5 wrote

"No way to prevent this," says only nation where this sort of thing regularly happens


Eubadom t1_je0ii1l wrote

We're the only country with gang violence?


Hoyarugby t1_je0j4el wrote

you're right, there are a few other countries that have extremely high levels of gang violence and where everybody is armed. We're in great company with el salvador, Mexico, and Brazil

oh and btw, most of the guns in those countries were bought legally here. Not only are we killing ourselves in huge numbers, we're exporting the problem


Fly__Eagles__Fly t1_je0v1w2 wrote

Ignore the other contributing factors for the best bad faith argument possible!


BasileusLeoIII t1_je0l9yq wrote

we actually are one of the only countries with a very large minority population kept in perpetual under-class status by systemic racism, which inevitably leads to high gang violence


Eubadom t1_je0lkia wrote

Underclass minority groups form gangs in almost every country on the planet.


BasileusLeoIII t1_je0mnlm wrote

We're the only first-world nation this diverse


UndercoverPhilly t1_je1inqr wrote

So we either stop being racists and make sure everyone gets a fair shot at life, lock up all the criminals, or preferably BOTH.

This is our circumstances, we need to deal with it and stop making excuses.


JerryEveryday t1_je0gc7k wrote

Nothing nice about Nicetown.


TimeFourChanges t1_je0snh4 wrote

There are plenty of nice people. I worked there my first two years in Philly, at Gratz (pre-Mastery), and found the vast majority of the people in the community are fine to great. Yes, of course, there is excessive violence and there are some mean-spirited kids, but rarely is the violence unprovoked. I treated my kids and their families with respect, and I usually got it in return (freshman are hard, though, til they get to know you.)

Please remember the people that hate this violence as much as you do, but are directly impacted by it.


Scumandvillany t1_je0uiof wrote

Yes. The overwhelming majority of people in the most affected areas are decent people who go to work and have jobs. Thank you. They want more than anyone for the murderers and shooters to be arrested and brought to justice, but it can be difficult to "rat", because that opens your family up to retaliation violence. If objective evidence gathering devices like cameras were ubiquitous, and forensic analysis/tools were modern and reliable, murderers and shooters would be caught and arrested and prosecuted, these people would praise God, and their communities would be made much more safe. It's only a few thousand people out of 1.6 million that are shooting and murdering. They need to go away for a very long time, and we can focus on what's next and get some room to live.


hubbu t1_je15utb wrote

My rescue dog came from nicetown. He's nice!


outerspace29 t1_je0m2ab wrote

As others have pointed out, better policing would go a long way in addressing violence like this. I'll also add that more investment and development in neighborhoods like this is also critical, otherwise the poor areas stay poor and this bullshit continues. Incentivize development in these areas, spread the dollars around instead of pumping it into a handful of places. A good neighborhood surrounded by blight is not a sustainable model for a city - we've seen this across the country over the course of decades at this point.

Maybe I need a catchphrase; "mandatory development" or something


TimeFourChanges t1_je0vjzi wrote

I have no idea how this could be implemented for real, but extensive parenting classes would go the furthest. After that, yes, I'd such major community development, especially in terms of giving both younger and older kids outlets for all their pent-up energy and aggression. If those two could be combined into one multi-purpose community center (maybe with community-led groups and classes), where families and kids can get to know each other from a young age, taking away the alienation that allows for violence to occur, that would do the most for the community, I think.

ALL of the issues that you see with the kids from the hood are the reult of generational trauma. The students I taught at Gratz that were at grade level, worked hard everyday, and aimed to go to college - unshockingly - had nice, stable home lives. Those that were unstable and violent had home-lives that reflected their behaviors. So, blame the parents, right? Well, they had the same issues growing up, along with all the trauma that comes from living in North Philly, being black and always at odds with the police, never feeling safe around them, high incarceration rates, poor enployment options, etc. So their behaviors are just as understandable. This includes parenting styles and techniques. Some of these parents are violently abusive to their kids, because that's how they were raised, and that's all they know how to react when their child is upset and they don't know what to do.

Providing all the mothers to be - especially the teen mothers - extensive parenting classes, along with on-going support in the early years (for those of you without kids, as a parent of two, those early years are HARD).

I've also worked in elementary schools and have seen how some kids come into the school - with almost no academic prepartion. My kids were so far advanced by the time they hit the door of kindergarten, but we didn't do anything excessive. We read to them every night, we answered their questions, we took them to the library, museums, parks, etc. Mostly just always had conversations with them, and talked to them about everything, and talking abotu fun scientific concepts like, say, the rain cycle, I'd dig up a youtube video and we'd learn more. Also, watching shows with them and anytime they were interested in something, pausing and discussing it with them, as well as playing puzzle games with them. I know that kinda sounds like a lot, but I mean to say this wasn't all the time. There was plenty of unstrctured time and just watching shows and such. I wasn't grilling them on everything and making them study for tests or what-have-you.

Anyway, point being, that if every mother-to-be got intensive classes as well as support, maybe even up to kindergarten, I'd suspect that the multitude of issues would be vastly less within three generations.


SauconySundaes t1_je19zlf wrote

Essentially we need mandatory maternity/paternity leave and universal pre-k. Having well funded and organized starts for children can make all the difference.


AskMoreQuestionsOk t1_je3bb15 wrote

That’s a great idea.

I don’t know why it isn’t a cultural thing where new parents can shadow or work with veteran parents in some way. It seems kind of obvious for infants, but really it makes sense to have knowledge sharing all the way to college graduation.


Bartleby_TheScrivene t1_je0yfj9 wrote

Mandatory military service in order to attain citizenship and right to have children imo.


Scumandvillany t1_je0olhz wrote

Part of MANDATORY 4K is addressing social iniquities.

This looks like cleaning sidewalks, keeping streets litter free, vacant land clear and clean, vacant housing kept up to standards(with a cost associated), planting trees, upgrading parks and playgrounds, funding better and more after school programs and initiatives, getting rid of abandoned vehicles, expanding funding to and improving the implementation of the "basic repairs program", tangled title help, expungement clinics, streamlining basic city job opportunities.

And all of the above need to be consistent and well managed. Actually solving crime is half the issue, the other half is the above plus increasing opportunities for people.

It's all part of MANDATORY 4K


a-german-muffin t1_je11w2l wrote

> vacant land clear and clean, vacant housing kept up to standards(with a cost associated)

The city seriously needs to hike the shit out of the costs to leave property vacant. It's a measly $185 right now, and there aren't nearly enough L&I folks to process the inevitable violations stemming from owners letting those properties rot.

I'd love to see a sliding scale that's something like $1,000 minimum for the first year and escalates from there (potentially higher if you have multiple vacants) — these assholes will stop squatting on houses if you make it hurt.


mustang__1 t1_je0pj5n wrote

What does investment and development in areas like that look like? Because that sounds like gentrification which pushes people out because the people living there probably won't get "better jobs", at best there might be more local jobs - but I don't think there is a general lack of jobs in the city overall, menial or otherwise. Fundamentally.... Im coarse and would rather see the development and remove the blight and hope the people either find a better job or a new place to live.


crispydukes t1_je0ub4k wrote

Part of the trouble is capitalism as it currently exists. If these areas are "improved," the jobs going in will still mostly be blue-collar/service jobs with limited wages and advancement opportunities. We're not suddenly going to build lawyers and doctors. The desperation that comes from current-age capitalism will still exist. Selling drugs or resorting to other crime may still pay better than the jobs that come from development. You've improved the neighborhoods, great, but even with solidly middle-class incomes, will there be enough local demand for goods and services to sustain the local businesses?

The solution will likely need to be mixed income residential (which is seemingly impossible to achieve organically) or dense commercial that is a cross-city attraction (East Passyunk, Fairmount, Fishtown, etc.).


mustang__1 t1_je1nqwt wrote

It's not capitalism's fault that there's a cultural anti-education mindset, Uncle Tom, etc. This mindset greatly reduces the opportunities afforded to you when you become an adult. Illegal activities are, in and of themselves, a form of capitalism........ and will never be less profitable than actually abiding by the laws of society - at least in the short term. Capital, social, commune, or otherwise... Crime is hard to beat for short term gain.

If Nicetown/K&A/Germantown, etc, ever become like Passyunk - to attract people from around the city.... what percentage of the current residents do you think would be able to afford to remain?


Raecino t1_je2teg8 wrote

Hmm but displacing people by pushing them out is not the answer. There needs to be more housing for those who aren’t wealthy in this city as well as actual investment in the neighborhoods. That means investing in the people that live there. Putting up brand new condos across the street from someone living in poverty only encourages crime.


ColdJay64 t1_je0n5w3 wrote

Kids shooting kids

edit: This is getting downvoted but it's pretty important when thinking about why this is happening, who's doing it, and how we work on fixing it.


babywithahugedick t1_je1hk4k wrote


This is a symptomatic issue of a city run by people pretending to have a clue what they're doing when they're actually complete idiots. I'm watching today's City Council meeting for work and we are fucked. This shit isn't going to change. They were seriously saying one of the solutions to youth gun violence is opening the library an extra day per week. The fucking library.

In case the people in charge of our city can't comprehend this, let me make something clear: kids who want to read books will find books to read. Kids who want to get into crime will find ways to do that too. There is almost no overlap for these kids.

Another thing they discussed as a solution to youth gun violence was tackling the issue of slumlords and housing. A completely separate issue that nobody really elaborated on. They just mentioned it and kind of moved along.

The people in charge of this city have no idea what the fuck they're doing. You want to solve the youth gun violence problem? Here's an idea: implement real consequences for violent offenders. Right now they think carjacking is cool, but I wonder how cool they'd think it is if one of their friends got 15 years in prison for it. But we have a weak DA, a useless police force, and an epidemic of absent parents, so why would you be afraid to do anything wrong?

Here's another idea: more truancy officers. How many of these kids are even going to school at all? This kid was shot and killed in the middle of a Tuesday afternoon. Those are school hours. Why wasn't he there? (EDIT: didn't read the article before posting, turns out he was walking to school and shot in the morning. Want to clarify that I wasn't victim blaming either, was just trying to understand how this happened. Was he shot by fellow students or just random criminals starting their day early?)

You have to punish the parents. Oh you're a parent and your kid isn't at school and you don't know where they are? Now you're liable for whatever they do and face consequences if they do something bad. Might make parents step up or make kids stop behaving this way if they see that they're harming people close to them.

But one thing that is definitely not going to change the youth gun violence problem? A fucking library being open one extra day per week. And until our city leaders start discussing actually viable solutions instead of sitting around City Hall jacking off, more kids are gonna get shot.


Scumandvillany t1_je0fy6a wrote



Legitimate_Onion_653 t1_je0i5eq wrote

We get it


Scumandvillany t1_je0ijuv wrote

Do we?


Legitimate_Onion_653 t1_je0o722 wrote



Scumandvillany t1_je0ozy5 wrote

I don't think we do. The paradigm hasn't shifted. Still "dope and guns on the table" and "muh police officers arrested 200 dudes with illegal guns but muh krasner let 'em go". And the smoothbrains are still on the "cameras in public are literally Orwell 1984" logic line.

So nah...imma have to say we don't get it


Legitimate_Onion_653 t1_je0pfy1 wrote

WE get it. Go tell someone who can do something about it


[deleted] t1_je0qblt wrote



Legitimate_Onion_653 t1_je0qjm4 wrote

Maybe you should consider if your current course of action is the best way to convince people that you are right


[deleted] t1_je0qzfl wrote



Legitimate_Onion_653 t1_je0r96x wrote

Yeah I'm just going to block you. BTW, mandatory treatment for addicts is a shitty ass idea that doesn't work. Ok bye now, see you in hell!


sluman001 t1_je1wphx wrote

The Atlantic City Boardwalk (gasp) is a great example. They installed 360 degree HD cameras every 150 feet with long range capabilities on the entire length of the boardwalk. They’re monitored 24/7. Crime, particularly violent crime, on the boardwalk is way down.

Proof: the murder on the boardwalk at Ballys last week. Cameras tracked the perp frame by frame and the cops had him in custody less than ten minutes after pulling the trigger. We have the technology and the money, yet this city does nothing.


MonsterNog t1_je0oef8 wrote

No, WE get it. As a society we do not get it yet.


Mrfrunzi t1_je1hrq8 wrote

Worst named area in this city....


TheBSQ t1_je56ftw wrote

I take my young kids to playgrounds almost every day, and one thing that you notice is just how different the parenting vibe can be from one playground to the next.

When little kids play they’re not terribly self-aware. In their excitement, they can knock other kids over. Or they’ll see a kid with a toy they like and want to take it and play with it. Or they may slide down a slide without waiting for the other kid to get off, or they may stand at the bottom of the slide, preventing others from going down.

My favorite parks are the ones where the parents don’t obsessively hover, trying to micro manage every step their kid takes, but are still present enough to step in when these things happen and teach kids about being mindful of others, sharing, patience, courtesy, and kindness.

And it’s amazing to watch as the kids grow up in these communities to the point where parents no longer need to step in. The kids have learned courtesy, patience, kindness, etc. and they do it on their own.

My least favorite are the “feral kids” playgrounds where parents don’t do this, and their kids don’t learn courtesy, empathy, kindness, and self-control.

At these places bigger kids still knock over little kids, still don’t understand not hogging equipment, and still engage in disruptive behavior that ruins the ability of other kids to enjoy and use the playground, if they’re not causing outright physical injuries.

They’re not bad kids.

They don’t act out of malice, they just never learned how their actions negatively affect others, and were never taught to control their own behavior to lessen that negative effect on others. They’re just out there doing whatever they want to do, and it just doesn’t really click that they’re negatively affecting others, the same way someone setting off fireworks in the streets because it’s fun probably isn’t asking themselves if those fireworks are waking up a sleeping baby in a nearby house and making life miserable for that baby’s parents, or triggering a vet’s PTSD.

They’re having fun, and it may even seem unfair to them that they’re supposed to refrain from doing something they like because others are bothered. They often feel like they are the victim and are being treated unfairly.

Like, they notice that the other kids weren’t reprimanded, but they don’t get that it’s because the other kids didn’t do the bad thing. They just see “I got yelled at, but they didn’t. That’s unfair.”

But the other aspect that’s kind of sad (but also annoying) is how desperate for attention these “feral” kids are.

they’ll notice that you praised your kid (“good job! You went down the slide all by yourself!”) and these other kids will then follow you and your kid around doing stuff and asking for your praise, insist on playing with you, begging for your constant attention.

And, of course, you’re polite, and tell them good job and all that, but they’ll keep getting more and more intrusive, even pushing your own kid down, trying to get them out of your attention, and demanding you give them attention over your own kids. your own kid is crying, or hurt, while they’re going “look at me, look at me.”

And through it all you can see the parent sitting off on the other side, just staring at their phone. And if an incident escalated enough, or someone reaches out to the parent, the reaction is typically to scold, threaten to hit, or to outright hit the hit for being bad.

But one thing you notice is the kids are rarely told what was bad, or how to be good. All they know is they were doing whatever they wanted for a long period of time, and then they got punished, sometimes physically, and the reason given is “because I told you so,” “you respect your mother,” etc. no logic. No lessons on empathy. Just authoritarian power. Might makes right.

(And it’s sad to see them so desperate for attention, but when they do finally get it, it’s just negative and disciplinary.)

you see these kids imitate that in their own interactions using threats and hitting to stop behavior in others that they don’t like. I’ve even had kids try to play make believe with me where they want me to pretend my kid is their kid and they saw it be bad and want to hit the kid. And you’re like, “uh…we’re not playing a game where you hit my kid, and who the fuck are your parents because I think CPS should look into your home life.”

so you see these patterns forming. No one teaching courtesy, patience, sharing, or how one’s actions affect others. You just do whatever you want. And if you don’t like what someone else does, and/or feel disrespected, you stop it with physical force, and conversely, you do whatever you want, until someone stops you with physical force. And when told to stop, they feel it’s unfair, like they’re the victim.

And when you spend years watching this happen in other children as you raise your own, the stories you hear from teachers, or the incidents you hear about if young teens attacking someone or trashing a store, it all kinda fits.

It’s that same “feral kids at the playground” experience, but with teens / young adults let loose in the world. Same so what you want, don’t care how it affects others, solve disputes with force. Same shit.

And, of course, you understand how this carries into schools and how one of the biggest difference between a “good” school and a “bad” one is what percentage of the kids were raised with kindness, and which didn’t learn. And it only takes a tiny percentage to disrupt a classroom.

and so just like how there’s certain playgrounds I avoid, there’s schools I also avoid, and it’s for similar reasons. It’s not really about facilities, funding, etc. it’s about which kids are you surrounding your kids with.

And you see it so young.

Like, my wife and I saw a neighbor’s kid, probably age 3, run out of the house with a giant butcher’s knife, in a diaper, screaming “I’ll fucking kill you” to his older sibling. No way am I sending my kid to school with that kid!

There’s this crucial window, like ages 2-5, where how you shape a child is so important. And sometimes it’s not till like 8-10 where you really see the negative aspects coming out.

And so when I hear about how schools need more resources to deal with problems, or there needs to be more after-school programs, I think that’s all well and good, and I support it. Let’s try everything.

but there’s a part of me thinks the real interventions are needed at those very early ages. After that, it’s bandaids and mitigations. It’s marginal and incremental benefits. The real work needs to happen young. Like even universal pre-k is already late enough where you’re dealing with consequences.

And ultimately, nothing will really work until what’s happening inside that home changes.

And sometimes it’s not even really that parent’s fault. Sometimes they themselves are really young, or tired, or stressed out, or just parenting by mimicking how they themselves were parented (my mom hit me and I turned out fine!) Maybe helping parents with incomeX resources, etc. can help, but I think we can’t neglect the underlying ways the kids are being socialized and say it’s just about support and money.

It’s made harder since parents are very defensive when it comes to advice on how to better raise their kids. So how the fuck do you change that?! Like, some hippie/yuppie person coming in and teaching about love and mindfulness. The “be quiet or I’ll whoop your ass” parents are gonna roll their eyes at that shit.

And the frustrating part is any time there’s a video of some kids trashing a store or disrupting a classroom, half the comments are basically insinuating these kids need a beat down, with commenters explaining that their parents would have whooped their ass if they acted that way.

And, it’s like, part of the problem is that’s probably exactly how these kids were raised, that parental beatings are the only discipline they know. And they also know that teachers, strangers, etc. likely won’t do that, or will get in trouble if they do, so essentially the only punishment they know is off the table, which means they’re free to do whatever.

So, it’s kinda fucked up because that discipline style is a huge part of why they feel free to be terrible, but it’s also the only style they respond to. It’s a big part of the cause but they’re already so messed up and broken, the better methods that work on unbroken people probably won’t sway them.

That window to teach them properly already passed.

And even more, the thing that was engrained early (be good in front of your parent or you’ll get beat) means they often don’t do this in front of their parents, which leads the parent to conclude that their parenting style works, leaving them flabbergasted when their “good” kid gets in trouble because parental beatings as the only guide-rails towards shitty behavior may work when parents are present and paying attention, but do nothing when parents are not present or not paying attention.


[deleted] t1_je23zzv wrote



c_pike1 t1_je27z4p wrote

Why is that surprising? That's on track to finish high school at 17/18 which is normal


Raecino t1_je2tw6t wrote

Most of you have no idea how to address the violence plaguing this city. You automatically assume displacing vast portions of the population will make crime disappear. Building new apartments only those with a lot of money can afford does NOTHING to address the root causes of these problems. In fact, it does the exact opposite. How can you call it investing in a neighborhood or bringing a neighborhood up when you don’t include those who live there? For too long many have turned a blind eye to this and we are reaping some of the results. Income inequality is a huge problem that only exacerbates the issue. Building a new Starbucks, a pet daycare and luxury apartments does NOTHING to stop the violence.

Yet when people from the community try to offer advice and their insight on what can and does work, the same idiots screaming about NIMBY’s don’t want to listen.


TheBSQ t1_je4tif7 wrote

Ok, you’ve had your cathartic vent where you complain that others are idiots.

So, let’s switch back to being constructive.

What is this community advice you say works well?

Is there a city or neighborhood success story you can point to? A neighborhood that once had a very high homicide/crime rate that implemented this advice, lowered the crime, and sustained those lower crime rates, and did so without displacing the existing population?

ideally, there’s example where one can show two neighborhoods with similarly bad crime rates, one that did the policy, and another that didn’t, and then you can compare the two before and after.

That’s basically the gist of what a lot of academic policy evaluation papers do, but even just a place where you think it’s worked well would be cool for people to see.


donownsyou t1_je0iomh wrote

Man I thought this said 15 shot and killed…geez


randompittuser t1_je0bp64 wrote

This is what we voted for. We're all responsible.


tmmzc85 t1_je0ebpd wrote

Say more or say less, this is worse than a platitude - it's meaningless to the point that anyone can impart any interpretation on to this they'd like.


gnartato t1_je0uji0 wrote

We voted for a negligent police department and bad parents?


jbphilly t1_je1jcgl wrote

We (as a nation) also voted to be absolutely inundated with guns so that teenagers can easily obtain them. But that probably wasn't the point the OP thought they were making.


linkdudesmash t1_je0w775 wrote

Indirectly but yes. Problems caused by poor city management.