$5million for fare evasion enforcement to recover $5,000 in lost fares?

New high jump comin

They look like a urinal.

As if the hobos need encouragement.

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Maybe this can keep them off the train, or at least help.

What is the value of increasing ridership by reducing crime on Septa? Helluva lot more than $5,000.

I asked a SEPTA official in December how they are getting on and off the platforms. He told me there are organized groups of people that go around helping them with fares.

That feels conspiratorial to me, but this official swore by his claim.

🤦🏾‍♂️

Do this at all of the stations

On both subway lines (BSL as well as MFL)

Leave it to septa to spend millions on what, 10k of lost revenue? What they should do is get their buses to run on time

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Although the article cites fare recovery, this may be more about doing a better job keeping problem users from accessing the system. That could boost safety and cleanliness, and get more people to use the line.

I'm super excited to see Septa actually start doing something potentially meaningful and visible to help solve their problems. That is assuming these aren't delayed by many years like most other Septa projects, where is open/NFC payments that was promised years ago?

Yup, most recently to allow for NFC open payments, which was the entire plan when Septa key was envisioned many years ago. Although in their defense technology has changed and an upgrade really isn't unexpected.

The only issue is they still haven't launched NFC open payments.

If you think only 2800 people hopped the turnstile last year I have a bridge to sell you.

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I mean, they don’t even need organized groups like…panhandling $2.50 seems pretty feasible to me.

Can't implement this without making ticketing quick and 100% reliable. SEPTA key sucks and the fare machines are unbearably slow.

If I'm faced with waiting 5 minutes to process a fare at a kiosk, and miss a train that likely won't come for another 20 minutes, then I'm sure as hell going to jump the gates.

Focus on safety, reliability and convenience, then fare evasion.

That septa cop was just bored on the job making stuff up. They just hop the turnstiles lol

When did we get to the point of everything needing a pilot program? Like do half the stations this year and half next.

That said, I'm glad they're doing something.

I've been saying exclude and remove the smokers and shitters and shooters from transit. Septa is not and should not be responsible for the homeless population. Its seriously deterring lots of people from using the el. The worst is smoothbrain idiots out there defending or criticizing plans to do something about it, or making fun of people who talk about smoking or drug use like they're suburban babies. Get fucked with that attitude.

They passed the resolution in the last meeting. They're buying them, but they're buying them from the same company that designed septa key. Hopefully it goes well.

When they buy more the cost will go down per station. Fare evasion is a serious issue and most of the people jumping are causing problems on the trains. They need to be excluded and the trains should be for riders only. Septa is not and should not be a homeless shelter

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Of course , neoliberals are not fans of comments like this

They should just contract the PATCO gate designer.

If they’re more focused on that then more patrols at main stations such as the Frankford or 8th and Market. I’ve seen more fare hoppers at those stations that anywhere when I was riding

The fare system helps to prevent ne'er do wells from accessing the trains, a la regional rail and PATCO.

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Those are easy to just walk straight through.

Lol I don’t think nothing like a quick stop at K&A and some crystal meth will stop, god bless the soul, a homeless person who wants to break through the glass to get in the El

If slam your quad/glutes hard enough into the turnstile it will turn and those slamming into them are hopped on drugs so they don’t feel a thing doing it

Now they'll just run in behind someone else (see the handicap turnstiles)

Seriously, I'm with you on this.

Is fare evasion REALLY this prevalent? Has it ever been so bad that we needed this for the subway in the last 20 years? This seems most like a solution looking for a problem rather than an actual fix.

There's no way SEPTA is losing even half of what these things are going to cost over 5 years. This doesn't make me think the system is safer just that I now have to waste more time trying to get through the turnstile.

"The gates, from Conduent Transport Solutions, include a 3D imaging system that can sound an alarm if someone tries to piggyback their way past the gate without paying. The sensors can also recognize wheelchairs, strollers and luggage."

How about make public transportation free. No gates at all.

Just make the trains free. Simple.

I guess you're gonna kick in the 600 million in missed revenue every year? The "free transit" take is Pollyanna at best, and irresponsible beyond belief. Not to mention that the ONLY people left on the El will be homeless addicts. It's absurd.

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I rarely see people jumping the turnstile but every day I see multiple people going through the handicap gates on one swipe. These look the same as those but taller.

Still need something to help keep lines safe and clean.

These and a Septa cop at every station on the MFL. You don’t pay, you get tossed. You evade, you get arrested. Harsh, maybe but the shit needs to stop.

It wasn't a cop. Coat and tie higher up type.

Because of my job, I've learned to remain implacable when told things that seem weird. But yeah, he got side eye when he said this.

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40% of their funding is via the city… they spend so much to get people to pay. I say we just make it free. I honestly think it would save them money.

Id share sources but im lazy and it wont do anything

*regional rail can still charge ig

Edit: source https://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/2016/11/07/who-pays-for-septa/ 40% not most from state

https://whyy.org/articles/ellison-septa-fare-free-opinion/amp/

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They spend more setting up, running, updating (all out of date now), stopping, paying workers to sit at stops all to make people pay. 40% of septa income is via city not fare. Spend the money on septa cops or community safety officers.

Addicts and homeless are people too. Safety and payment are not the same. Free and safe can exist.

Edit: source https://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/2016/11/07/who-pays-for-septa/ and not most but 40% of revenue is from state

https://whyy.org/articles/ellison-septa-fare-free-opinion/amp/

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All the costs for trying figure out how people can pay… spend it on safety teams..

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Would be great. Would keep a lot of the problem riders off.

They can pee on it if it keeps them from bothering me on the train

I’d rather it be safe then free. Monetarily as it relates to the MFL not as a general sentiment lol. Safety is a part of freedom too though

Yea shame that Boston, NYC, Chicago and Camden didn't have a fully functioning system before the Key RFP was even posted.

To your point no one at SEPTA suffered any consequences for the millions in overruns and missed deadlines.

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> When did we get to the point of everything needing a pilot program?

My favorite is still the pilot program for street sweeping. The Empire State Building was constructed in its entirety faster than Philadelphia can figure out how to tackle street sweeping.

Los Angeles tried safety teams. Hasn’t worked at all: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains

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The bigger the corporation, the closer it gets to the government

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I rode the El for the first time in years and while waiting for the train to arrive at 2nd Street, people were just freely walking in and out of the handicapped-accessible turnstile. Guess what they were doing on the platform? Guess how many SEPTA employees or transit police were at the station?

I don’t think many would be deterred by an alarm. I’ve seen turnstile jumpers look directly into the face of the SEPTA employee as they’re doing it, and just keep on going.

The most effective to me seemed to be the full body the turnstiles they installed in parts of 30th street, but I also hate them as they cause congestion so I don’t know.

Exactly. Does anyone really think the criminals and troublemakers pay fares? Do you think the drug addicts load up their Septa Key Card wallets?

How about…. Get more transit police, get tap pay, clean the literal trash off the train, stop letting junkies shoot up on the train, stop letting people take actual shits on the train, stop letting people smoke on the train, stop delaying the trains….

If you’re so concerned about people not paying then actually get people to stop them in conjunction with better turnstiles.

If you pull the turnstile towards you halfway (as if a person is exiting through it) it creates a gap that you can slip through discretely. This is what most adults who farejump do. Teens hop over.

I get that it doesn’t work but I really like the idea of spending other people’s money (evil laugh)

Do you know you can add money on your phone ?

Where are you getting these numbers?

THOSE numbers were from out of my ass, but..... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-06/to-stop-biased-fare-evasion-policing-make-transit-free

I moved near fishtown with the plan to take the train into the CC for work.

The train is one of, if not the worst, experiences I have ever had in Philly since moving here ten years ago. It’s a shit hole…literally. The homeless and junkies have taken the system over. They should make it impossible to access the stations without paying. All the homeless should be removed. As you said, it’s not the responsibility of septa to take care of the homeless population. I’m all for paying more in taxes to help house and feed people. There is zero reason why myself or anyone should feel unsafe at 3pm on a Tuesday taking the train.

Yea but, Jimbo Kenney LOVES doing things 2 years after NY and Cali that failed there.

They need to go back to allowing cars to being towed before being ticketed.

Just get rid of them and do honor system. The salaries of patrol people will be less than maintaining these, and double as safety patrol. Many metro systems do this effectively.

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i wish you would step back from that fare evasion, my friend

Waste of money… we need new trains not gates

Nah, fare jumpers just gonna ride you real close when you card through.

Edit: Let's call it speed run.

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>The SEPTA board is set to approve a $925,000 contract for the 3D gates on Thursday, with delivery expected late this year.
>
>Nearly 2,800 fare evasion cases were reported on SEPTA last year — an increase of more than 800 from 2021. Busch said the new gates would more accurately track the number of fare evaders on the system.

Hmm... 2,8000 * 2.50 = $7,000

High tech 3D imaging gates at two subway stations: $925,000.

Principles seem really expensive lol

Those panels will end up shot out within a week.

>The gates, from Conduent Transport Solutions, include a 3D imaging system that can sound an alarm if someone tries to piggyback their way past the gate without paying. The sensors can also recognize wheelchairs, strollers and luggage.
>
>The SEPTA board is set to approve a $925,000 contract for the 3D gates on Thursday, with delivery expected late this year.
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>Nearly 2,800 fare evasion cases were reported on SEPTA last year — an increase of more than 800 from 2021. Busch said the new gates would more accurately track the number of fare evaders on the system.

Is this number for the pilot program, meaning just the two stations?

So, nearly a million dollars to see if we can claw back roughly $7,000 in stolen subway rides per year?

And you still have to get your card scanned multiple times even though you’ve already scanned on the platform. Two things I’d love to see: Adding a septa pass to an electronic wallet, and/or paying via electronic wallet on the platform or trolley.

>I'm super excited to see Septa actually start doing something potentially meaningful and visible to help solve their problems.

I find it odd that the article says there are about 2,800 fare jumps in the year. At $2.50 per jump it seems like we are chasing about $7,000 in free subway rides.

I almost always see someone push their body weight into the glass and pry it open to go through. It looks relatively easy.

i would like to atleast quadruple that number they provided lol. i think i can sit at one station for a day and see like 100 people hop haha

I sometimes literally get off a stop or two early to avoid certain ones. Some of them you can’t even walk up the stairs.

Maybe they should spend that money on making the fucking trains actually be on time for once. Stop raising fares to buy shit like this and fix the infrastructure that we have.

Ffs they are trains they drive on tracks so why isn’t it an automated system of self-driving trains like in other cities?

I mean I just have it auto reload on my phone every Monday and really have never had an issue with my card…

That sounds very, very low.

Yeah reporting 2,800 fare evasion cases comes out to 7.7 fare jumps per day. I see around 3-5 every time I ride the subway, which is usually twice a day, sometimes thee times. What a hilariously low number that is.

Dont know why you got downvoted, it does in deed work well

Totally agree. They could probably save money by just placing SEPTA police at high-use stations. Or honestly a long list of literally anything else.

Gotta support small business every chance you’ve got.

mmm how bout spending some money to get some actual security down there?

the number of people in my life willing to take the subway with me is dwindling

After taking the NYC subway with OMNY payment, NFC payments can't come soon enough. I just hope they don't do something stupid like in DC where you still need to pay $2 to activate a "virtual card". The $5 fee for SEPTA key cards is a joke when the cards have a set expiration date.

I have my card auto reload as well - but not everyone has a septa key (tourists) and sometimes you need to buy a one off fare.

I've had a bunch of small issues with the card, it's nothing that you can't deal with but it's just a stupid waste of time that you shouldn't have to deal with.

The $5 is fully refunded when you register your card. I believe you can technically do it twice, so theoretically by the time you need a third card they should be using NFC open payments.

I keep two extra cards on hand for guests, and I've already had one card expire, so I'm well past the limit. This would obviously not have been an issue if we could do multiple taps. The eTix on the app kind of fixes this problem, but I haven't tried it out with multiple riders yet.

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They'll protect their money before they protect their riders. Fuck SEPTA for this

Yeah septa key is actually fairly good imo

People already on the platform trigger the exit mechanism so others can enter through the handicap gate. Sometimes it feels like half the riders haven't payed.

i was in dc two weeks ago. paid an extra two dollars for a 2 dollar ride. if you want people to take transit as a choice, a one time paper ticket should be an option.

this is my biggest beef too. septa has no problem hopping on the MBTA project for their double decker trains, but a fare system that will impact every rider? of course that's the time to blaze a trail.

anyone know the company who has the contract? maybe they're connected in some way with the septa board members.

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I think you can do it for two active Key Cards per email address. I have 4 of them at home, just registered under different gmail accounts so I could get the refund.

Lol ok so one person pays and holds it open.

Gonna see a lot of broken doors. Only way to stop turnstile jumpers is to enforce it or make the gates like the metal ones when you leave the subway.

I do not know you but i would assume you are not struggling financially like 23% of our population. There are many who can’t make it to their doctors appointments because they do not have the resources to make it there.

I agree safety is part of freedom. I think we can do both like over 100 cities have already implemented throughout the country.

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Interesting article. Maybe safety teams is not the answer maybe it is septa police but currently we have things in place to force people to pay. And currently we have an issue with drug use and homelessness on trains. Why is this any different?

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I know it seems like a small barrier to automation but there's still the labor issue. I'm very pro-union but I draw the line at people working jobs that don't need to exist. NYC's L train is basically completely automated but they still have to have an operator and conductor because of the labor agreements. SEPTA can't even get rid of the token booth position, good luck ever getting rid of the operator position. And I'm slightly furious that I have to cross Spring Garden to enter to BSL because of a stupid labor contract (they can't open the turnstiles unless there's a token booth employee present).

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According to that article, DC transit claims they lose $25 million annually to fare evasion

don't forget waving your hand at the sensor on the handicapped turnstile to make it think someone is exiting!

Sure, and "reported" is obviously a huge consraint on that number.

At $2.50 per evasion and $925,000 for two stations' worth of gates, it seems like it's going to take a long time to recoup this investment.

MTA in NYC turned off the alarms at gates because they were basically on full time making the experience shit for everyone else

That's probably the worst thing that SEPTA could do, and would all but guarantee it gets turned into the mobile drug addict homeless shelter, driving ridership to near zero and seeing the abandonment of the system by the counties and state.

Why do hate public transportation so much?

If you only knew they have gotten big raises the last 2 contracts to basically stare at camera’s all day and the minimum needed patroling.

Or they could install un-jumpable fair gates at all stations to keep the problematics out of the system, and use police to handle keeping them from loitering in the stations and using them as restrooms and drug dens.

so... maybe $28,000 dollars lost based on your feelings still leaves a pretty significant gap to $925,000 for 2 stations * the whole BSL and MFL networks, no?

at 10x the reported number we are approaching a $70k problem with a $975k "pilot program".

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mainly I was just saying definitely more than 2.8k people hop each year (probably far more than 11,200 do), wasn't really commenting on the need.

however, I do think it is worth the investment. would certainly provide safer and cleaner platforms, which is a big reason why ridership is down. so factoring in more people actually paying (who knows how many people actually do hop, I would assume it is very high) and an increase in ridership, then you can maybe pay off the investment in a decade (which for infrastructure upgrades that is pretty decent). of course you would have to factor in yearly maintenance, but overall I do think these improved gates do a whole lot more than making sure people pay. I bet way more people would ride the subway if it was safer. No reason I should feel on edge at 3pm on a Thursday... or be walking past a pool of blood, etc. (yes that has happened).

I just hope that city also takes more time to address homelessness because it shouldn't be on SEPTA to be the only location where they can have any kind of shelter, and if the gates are improved and the housing/shelter need isn't met then we are in full a ton more issues.

I think at some stations that actually is the correct stat, that only 50% pay. I can use 34th as an example, I do go to Drexel but always pay but definitely when going out at night, I don't think anyone else bothers to pay.

There is no SEPTA attendant and no real encouragement to pay, just out of good faith.

Also yeah everyday I leave city hall, someone comes in behind me on the handicap one haha.

I'd rather not crush needles under my shoes every morning , but this is fun investment I suppose

I’m usually not one to discourage investing in long term improvements, I just find the case they’re making to be absurd based on these numbers. I guess I just wonder if “high-tech” is needed for this exact problem.

I also find it hard to believe that the crime that people are concerned about is stealing a $3 ride on the train. Gates aren’t going to stop people from fighting and doing drugs or whatever.

There's no way the number of fare jumps is that low. I see multiple on a daily basis, and it's not like I'm camping out there watching. This is just what I observe in the few seconds I'm near the turnstiles.

Of course it's under-reported, but people are also seriously overestimating how their personal experience relates to the whole picture.

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I was at Cecil B Moore the other day, mid-day, and watched probably 10 people skinny past or hop over the turnstile in the span of like 10 minutes. Let's conservatively call it 10 jumps an hour at CBM, only consider 12 hours per day, and use the 2018 "weekday ridership" numbers by station from the BSL wiki. That's ~3.5% of total riders that aren't paying (and maybe higher since ridership is way down from 2018); does that sound directionally correct? Applying that to annual BSL + MFL ridership of ~35M (2022 stats; waaay tf down from pre-COVID haha wow) suggests an annual fare jump count of ~1.2M. At $2 per, that's $2.4M in evaded fare (assuming 100% of fare-jumpers turn into fare-payers) which is not close to immediate payback for these new gates. But I'm still for the move because it ought to significantly improve the SEPTA experience and hopefully help increase ridership.

Broad Street Line

>The Broad Street Line (BSL), also known as the Broad Street subway (BSS), Orange Line, or Broad Line, is a subway line owned by the city of Philadelphia and operated by the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA). The line runs primarily north-south from the Fern Rock Transportation Center in North Philadelphia through Center City Philadelphia to NRG station at Pattison Avenue in South Philadelphia; the latter station provides access to the stadiums and arenas for the city's major professional sports teams at the South Philadelphia Sports Complex, about a quarter mile away.

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> full body the turnstiles

which aren't ADA compliant and cause issues in emergencies, those things are awful

The investment is more about keeping the problems that fair jumpers bring into system out of the system. The homeless drug addicts smoking crack on the subway drive away multiple more users than just their one fair.

To be fare (ba-dum-tsh), that math isn't factoring any increase in ridership SEPTA might expect to experience from improving conditions on the trains (by say deterring homeless etc. from living in stations / on trains)

An alarm ain't stopping shit.

>The homeless drug addicts smoking crack on the subway drive away multiple more users than just their one fair.

The thing about someone who can pull together enough money for a score is that they can pull together enough money for a fare if it gets them on the train for unlimited time.

2,800 reported fare jumps works out to a single fare jump per week at each station on the BSL and MFL. That 2,800 number might very well be off by 100x, in which case $700k every year is an excellent payback.

I believe the gates do stop people from bringing that down onto the platforms. People also aren't going to pay to loiter on the platforms. It will make it so people using the transit, actually are there to use it. Of course there will still be crime, people littering, etc. but I would say this definitely would reduce it.

I know SEPTA likes to do a million pilot programs and not actually follow through but I think just comparing one station to with these to the rest would show their use. Of course this all assumes SEPTA decides to implement something properly.

There's usually somebody just sitting at the handicapped gate at Norristown to let people on the high speed line. Probably happens more than 2800 times in a year just there.

The issue isn't really the fares. It's the other problems they cause on the subway that inconvenience other passengers.

>People also aren't going to pay to loiter on the platforms.

For real, which people are jumping and standing on platforms indefinitely? I've only ever seen people rush through when the train pulls up so they aren't stuck standing there with nowhere to go.

I wonder where they'll take their problems, then.

This mentality of just selling out public transportation on this reddit always blows my mind.

Especially with something as important to a city as public transportation.

It seems like that could be addressed for less than a million dollars if it’s so obvious, no?

I'm not sure what you mean. Once you kick them out of the subway, they hang around on the sidewalk next to the subway. Then people are still afraid to walk to the subway. Panhandlers go where there are people. Homeless people go where they can be comfortable. Kids cause trouble for laughs.

$975,000 for two stations.

Maybe if there were 195,000 jumps per station per year. That's 535/station/day.

Maybe that should be addressed as well?

Not just turning the El into a homeless shelter or day care to save the rest of the city.

I guess ultimately the idea that the fare-jumping is the root of the problem just really doesn't feel right to me. Subway upgrades are cool.

195k per station per year would be a 1 year payback, ignoring all benefit from cleaning the system up for honest riders. I'd be thrilled with a 5 year payback, which would require preventing 39k fare jumps per year per station, which is like 4-5 fare jumps per hour, which is probably in the ballpark of the actual situation on the ground today.

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6 people at a time will bulrush thru

Let's just assume I'm right and that I see 2 fare jumpers per day. That's 10 a week, or about 520 per year. That's more than a sixth of the quoted number that one person is witnessing at one station in a small window of time. Admittedly, I'm primarily travelling during rush hour when there are more people travelling, and probably more fare jumps are happening during that time, but I just don't see any possible way the quoted number is close to accurate. It wouldn't shock me at all if the real number was 100x higher.

Society doesn't function well when we fail to enforce our own rules and standards. That's how the situation here has gotten so shitty.