Dryheavemorning OP t1_izg08e5 wrote
Reply to comment by MildTile in Fishtown, Point Breeze have become far wealthier in the last 10 years and other new Census findings by Dryheavemorning
That term is way more ambiguous and loaded than the accurate title.
MildTile t1_izg0pwi wrote
You prefer we pushed all the non white actual Philadelphians out of the area.. then ripped all the old houses down to build super low quality expensive townhouses?
Bartleby_TheScrivene t1_izgfomf wrote
You prefer we trap Black families into segregated little neighborhoods where property values never increase.
jersey_girl660 t1_izgrteh wrote
Gentrification doesn’t fix that either. They end up not being able to afford the neighborhood and the cycle repeats when they move into another impoverished/ low income/ working class neighborhood.
In order to not have this happen gentrification has to be done very carefully. And it’s often not done that way in the name of $$$$
Bartleby_TheScrivene t1_izgrxja wrote
jersey_girl660 t1_izgs3mb wrote
Nice opinion piece. Please show me how many inhabitants of fish town are pre gentrification. And where the ones who couldn’t afford it moved.
MildTile t1_izgpwbt wrote
Nice try. No I prefer you don’t push them completely out because you tear down 4 40k houses and build 8 100+k condos and price out the people that have lived there for decades.
Bartleby_TheScrivene t1_izgq2oo wrote
I wasn't asking you a question. I was stating what your choice will do.
For the record, anyone that has lived there "for decades" owns the house. Full stop. They would be thrilled for their property value to suddenly triple or quadruple, especially if the kids have moved on. It would allow them to sell a home they've likely had little money to renovate or repair for far above market price and move somewhere equally affordable as before while pocketing some change, if they want to.
Nobody buys a house, or lives in a house for decades, and wants to sell it for the same they paid 20 years ago.
MildTile t1_izgscu3 wrote
You really have no idea how any of this is working do you? Lol
AbsentEmpire t1_izgwpp0 wrote
You certainly don't.
passing-stranger t1_izixb06 wrote
This is not true. There are many families who want to stay in their homes and neighborhoods but can't keep up with rising taxes as their property value increases. In addition to higher cost of living in general when many members of the working class don't even get a 3% wage increase annually.
Maybe you should spend less time dreaming up ways to gentrify the neighborhood and more time talking to real people who live here and have for years.
Bartleby_TheScrivene t1_iziytil wrote
We're talking about houses that 20 years ago, were worth 40k and had zero property tax, turning into teardown lots worth 160 or 200k with a property tax of $1000 a year. Less than $100 a month.
People complaining about not being able to afford property tax are full of it.
passing-stranger t1_izizxca wrote
Dude, just say you're too privileged to understand and move on. You've been in the area for a minute and you think you know what it needs? Like I said, you'd be better off actually listening to neighbors who are dealing with this but with that attitude I can see why they wouldn't want to chat. Have a good one
Bartleby_TheScrivene t1_izj15hh wrote
Lol fuck off. You're the one who thinks minorities are too dumb and too poor to afford property tax increases.
passing-stranger t1_izj1lh9 wrote
I didn't say a single thing about "minorities" or their intelligence. You're telling on yourself. Have a good one
jersey_girl660 t1_izgryrq wrote
With rising property values comes rising tax bills as well as a higher COL.
That’s why people are pushed out from gentrification. If you are already struggling to pay the bills a rising tax bill along with higher food costs, gas costs, utilities, cars, etc can easily price someone out.
Away_Swimming_5757 t1_izhavrj wrote
Point Breeze property taxes have gone from $600 up to $3,000. That's a reasonable price after being kept low for decades.
AbsentEmpire t1_izgwow0 wrote
Just keep ignoring that Philly property taxes are way lower than they should be and weighted to the value of the structure not the land.
jersey_girl660 t1_izgxe1k wrote
Yeah you’re right the original inhabitants of fish town can all still afford to live there…. Please
Away_Swimming_5757 t1_izhazmd wrote
Fishtown is full of old timers in paid off houses. They can afford to remain there and will continue to.
AbsentEmpire t1_izgyafn wrote
The Lenape?
They left for very different reasons than the bullshit you're trying to imply.
But seriously you're right, there is not one single person living in Fishtown today who was there 20 years ago, not a single person. They all had thier houses seized from them and didn't sell them for record amounts of money and moved somewhere they'd rather be.
jersey_girl660 t1_izgydxd wrote
It wasn’t called fish town when they were living there.
Y’all wanna keep arguing about something that’s known to happen with gentrification be my guest. Wouldn’t be the first time y’all try to go with what feels right vs what evidence shows
AbsentEmpire t1_izgzcrp wrote
What fucking evidence, you've shown none other than your poorly conceived notion of gentrification, which you're really just using as a substitute for change is bad.
You're over here acting like this is fucking San Francisco, when the evidence shows what you claim literally isn't happening.
jersey_girl660 t1_izgzniz wrote
“That reinforces previous research, also released by the Philadelphia Federal Reserve, that found that demographic change in gentrifying neighborhoods was a result of typical levels of population churn in lower-income neighborhood — but with existing residents more often replaced by higher-income people than by similarly situated poor people”
This is exactly what I’m saying . You literally just proved my point bud.
AbsentEmpire t1_izh04wx wrote
>In addition, the researchers found, many low-income “original residents” remained in the neighborhood and benefited from the changing characteristics of the community. Perhaps obviously, low-income homeowners experience significant increases in their home values, while Reed and Brummet found that children from low-income households were more likely to go to college if they lived in gentrifying neighborhoods.
>Their research finds that gentrification had no discernible effect on income, employment or commuting distance for lower-income original residents, both those who were displaced and those who remained. That finding undermines the most boosterish case for gentrification, while also showing that it doesn’t massively undercut the material quality of life for poorer residents.
Way to ignore the rest of the article bud, which disproves your notions.
>The paper shows that much of the neighborhood demographic change was generated by newer, better-educated residents moving in rather than lower-income residents being forced out. That reinforces previous research, also released by the Philadelphia Federal Reserve, that found that demographic change in gentrifying neighborhoods was a result of typical levels of population churn in lower-income neighborhood
And the first part of the paragraph you quoted. Which further undermines your position.
jersey_girl660 t1_izh0c4m wrote
No it doesn’t. I never once stated that no residents stayed behind. Again the quote I provided you literally says most are replaced.
Just because a small amount stay doesn’t disprove what I’m saying… at all.
“That reinforces previous research, also released by the Philadelphia Federal Reserve, that found that demographic change in gentrifying neighborhoods was a result of typical levels of population churn in lower-income neighborhood — but with existing residents more often replaced by higher-income people than by similarly situated poor people”
I never once stated every single resident get replaced. Most do. Gentrification has both pros and cons which is why it has to be done right.
Also if you had asked me I would’ve told you there are benefits for those that are able to stay in the neighborhood…:. But you didn’t even bother.
AbsentEmpire t1_izh2r6w wrote
>That reinforces previous research, also released by the Philadelphia Federal Reserve, that found that demographic change in gentrifying neighborhoods was a result of typical levels of population churn in lower-income neighborhood
>“That’s a reason we think you shouldn’t just design policy to protect people who are already there. If you are in a world where people just move a lot, and this change is happening through replacement effects, maybe you should make sure people can afford to move there in the future.”
They're not being displaced if the the change reflects normal population churn, they being excluded by lack of affordable options due to zone restrictions, there is a big fucking difference in the implication.
jersey_girl660 t1_izh3eqn wrote
They are being displaced. It doesn’t matter if it’s equal to normal levels of population change. That’s not the issue.
It’s being replaced by higher income residents and then having to move to an area with similar issues as the old one… and not being able to benefit from the positive changes to the neighborhood as a result of being displaced
Displaced : cause (something) to move from its proper or usual place.
They are literally being displaced.
“The Fair Housing Act can be used as litigation against gentrification because the urban development process of higher-income individuals into lower-income neighborhoods leads to displacement”
AbsentEmpire t1_izh7ovu wrote
>displaced; displacing; displaces
>transitive verb >1a: to remove from the usual or proper place >specifically : to expel or force to flee from home or homeland
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/displace
>that found that demographic change in gentrifying neighborhoods was a result of typical levels of population churn in lower-income neighborhood
No one is being expelled, or otherwise forced to flee a neighborhood because higher income people moved in, they are being excluded from continuing to move in due to lack of affordable options caused by exclusionary zoning policy.
Again there is a big difference in the implications between being displaced and being excluded. You should demand a refund from your school.
jersey_girl660 t1_izgzimw wrote
I literally took a class on it.
Also that article says people moved in but old residents weren’t displaced but then goes on to say the new residents replaced poorer residents…..
Very reliable. It’s Philadelphia… there’s only so much room for new construction before you have to start replacing residents.
AbsentEmpire t1_izgzthy wrote
>I literally took a class on it.
Oh well I guess that disproves the Federal Reserves multiple studies on it.
jersey_girl660 t1_izh01nf wrote
We used studies in my class.
Also from your study
“That reinforces previous research, also released by the Philadelphia Federal Reserve, that found that demographic change in gentrifying neighborhoods was a result of typical levels of population churn in lower-income neighborhood — but with existing residents more often replaced by higher-income people than by similarly situated poor people”
This is exactly the point I’m making and what the research on gentrification overwhelmingly shows. Congrats 🎉
AbsentEmpire t1_izh10ip wrote
They evidently didn't teach you to read since the rest of the paper shows your point is overblown, and the real issue is housing availability.
>Their research finds that gentrification had no discernible effect on income, employment or commuting distance for lower-income original residents, both those who were displaced and those who remained. That finding undermines the most boosterish case for gentrification, while also showing that it doesn’t massively undercut the material quality of life for poorer residents.
>The paper shows that much of the neighborhood demographic change was generated by newer, better-educated residents moving in rather than lower-income residents being forced out. That reinforces previous research, also released by the Philadelphia Federal Reserve, that found that demographic change in gentrifying neighborhoods was a result of typical levels of population churn in lower-income neighborhoods
> “That’s a reason we think you shouldn’t just design policy to protect people who are already there. If you are in a world where people just move a lot, and this change is happening through replacement effects, maybe you should make sure people can afford to move there in the future.”
jersey_girl660 t1_izh12zm wrote
Literally none of that is what I was saying but okay…. Lmao
I never once said displaced or not residents get poorer. Lmao. Or that their commuting distances increased.
This is not the issues with gentrification. And anybody who thinks those are the issues has not studied gentrification enough.
And again the last part says exactly what I’ve been saying. Most residents are displaced by new higher income residents. Say it louder for those in the back 😅
jersey_girl660 t1_izgzva7 wrote
The study you posted proved my point though?
Away_Swimming_5757 t1_izhbd1k wrote
Philadelphia had a population of 2.1 million in 1950. We are at 1.6 million currently with blocks worth of vacant lots. We would need about extra 500k to flood in before we'd be reaching the point you're talking about. Losing 25% of our population has been devastating to the tax base and funding of the city. The revitalization of Fishtown is a major success story and model for other Philadelphia neighborhoods (and a huge increase in tax revenue... all those initial 10 year tax abatements are ending and will continue to mature into their full taxation over the next 5 years).
Dryheavemorning OP t1_izh3amd wrote
> It’s Philadelphia… there’s only so much room for new construction before you have to start replacing residents.
Huh? There used to be 2 million people living in the City, now it's 1.6. Have you ever been to North Philadelphia? There's plenty of room.
jersey_girl660 t1_izh3yx2 wrote
I said there’s only so much room. And yes I’ve been to north Philadelphia….. north Philadelphia is not all of Philadelphia. There’s only so many empty lots you can build on before you have to start buying existing buildings and remodeling or demolishing them. the city is only 143 sq miles. Other then annexing land that is the size it’s always going to be. You can only build y amount on x amount of land.
If gentrification involved only building new units there would be no displacement. Old and bee residents could live together. But that’s not usually the case. Yes sometimes they build on empty lots or abandoned buildings but they just as often buy existing homes to turn into whatever it is they’re building.
An_emperor_penguin t1_izhjhjf wrote
> There’s only so many empty lots you can build on before you have to start buying existing buildings and remodeling or demolishing them
Saying this is a problem would imply people should never be able to sell their homes or move or anything, somehow the "anti gentrification" crap always comes back to shoving minorities into ghettos
>You can only build y amount on x amount of land
There's this great "new" technique of putting houses on top of each other that would let us build more :)
Dryheavemorning OP t1_izh6s1l wrote
You're acting like this is New York or SF, we don't have 400k extra people handing this way soon and Philadelphia has historically been a City of homeowners. It's true that desirable locations are limited but even those are still incredibly underdeveloped now.
I'm Fishtown adjacent and my neighbors that bought their houses for $5-15k in the 80s and 90s are very happy about the changes to the neighborhood. Many bought empty lots near their houses for next to nothing and sold them for incredible profits. "Gentrification" is such a vastly diverse experience based on hyper local circumstances that the term is near worthless and just used as a boogeyman for change.
Away_Swimming_5757 t1_izhbn5m wrote
Damn, you really have a closed mind to all the additional perspective the other commenters are sharing with you.
ColdJay64 t1_izg3hjd wrote
Philly has plenty of room to grow before that happens. After another 400k people move here you may have a point.
AbsentEmpire t1_izgo60w wrote
You're right it's far better that we concentrate non white people into poor neighborhoods with dilapidated housing, and by law block any investment into them.
That's worked out so well in the past.
jersey_girl660 t1_izgs0tt wrote
Do you realize that’s often the end result when gentrification is unchecked?
AbsentEmpire t1_izgujhi wrote
Do you realize that gentrification is only possible with exclusionary zoning?
jersey_girl660 t1_izgvry0 wrote
What is your point?
AbsentEmpire t1_izh25qb wrote
That zoning causes gentrification, whats yours?
jersey_girl660 t1_izh29ii wrote
My point has nothing to do with zoning and gentrification is a cause of supply and demand so I’m not convinced it wouldn’t exist without zoning. Only so much land to go around
AbsentEmpire t1_izhamzg wrote
We could fit the entire population of Earth into Texas and everyone would have 1000sqft of space. Philadelphia used to have over 2 million people living in it, and using less total land area than the current 1.6 million occupies.
We are nowhere near running out of land space in this city, try again.
MildTile t1_izgq2ax wrote
Don’t act like any of this is to help any of the none white people out. We all know who is purchasing and living in these condos and it’s sure as hell not the people that lived in those neighborhoods before.
AbsentEmpire t1_izgue98 wrote
Oh fucking please, who do think are the people selling thier house for record amounts of money? No one is being forced out of Point Breeze, but do go on about how black people shouldn't be allowed to profit off their land because racial mixing is bad.
Also tell me you don't live in Point Breeze without saying it. The neighborhood is overwhelmingly single family housing, not condos, there are in fact very few condos available in Point Breeze, and 99% of construction has been empty lot infill with single family housing, structurally unstable house replacement, and existing homes getting full renovations. Fuck out of here with this bullshit.
[deleted] t1_izil3q7 wrote
[removed]
AbsentEmpire t1_izixvnc wrote
I was born in Philly, have lived here longer than you've likely been alive, and bought my house over a decade ago. But thanks for clarifying that you're some suburban transplant with a chip on the shoulder over not being able to make it in the city, doesn't know shit about Point Breeze, and wants to return to days of redlining.
MildTile t1_izj363x wrote
Oh the old man go to. Lol probably calls into WIP on a daily basis bitching about hockey lol
filladellfea t1_izhgt3e wrote
if that's your definition, then i assume you only mean point breeze? because fishtown was mostly white before it started its revitalization.
MildTile t1_izil7kt wrote
Fishtown is what it is. But go anywhere around it and this is exactly what’s happening.
Barmelo_Xanthony t1_izh7yur wrote
Nobody pushed all the non whites out. They left because they cannot afford it. So maybe let’s help these communities build up and earn higher paying jobs or we can blame the people that moved in once it was nice. But the first one takes effort so let’s blame an entire race that just wanted to move to a cool area.
Yes, you are a racist by saying white people shouldn’t be able to move into your town.
MildTile t1_izikzoq wrote
Lol and it’s not racist to come in and price others out?
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