Ill_Department_2055 t1_j8d6yyl wrote on February 13, 2023 at 1:08 PM

Reply to comment by forestwolf42 in You're probably a eugenicist by 4r530n

Yes, of course the population is made up of individuals and each individual's suffering matters.

But that's not the eugenicists primary concern. It's easier to understand when you remember the really big eugenics movements, like Nazism and White Supremacy, which care less for the individual and more for the "purity" of the overall race.

It's an important distinction to make because it's an underlying worldview that does often affect our politics in subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, ways.

Think animal rights vs. conservationists. Most of the time these two groups align, but sometimes conservationists will seek to conserve the overall population of a species in ways that harms individual animals more than animal rights groups find acceptable.

So back to the question of incest: If I am a eugenicist, I oppose incest because I don't want the DNA of the overall population besmirched. If I care about individual rights, I am concerned about the welfare and suffering of individual children potentially born into more suffering than necessary.

forestwolf42 t1_j8deqp3 wrote on February 13, 2023 at 2:15 PM

Okay I can understand that, can you care about people not passing down Parkinson's disease to future generations because Parkinson's is really painful and hard to live with? I can, I think it would be great if people chose not to role the dice with the dangerous disease and it was reduced in future generations. What does that make me?

What if I know a couple that both have schizophrenia and I think they shouldn't reproduce because they're child has a 40% to have a schizoid type disorder and I've seen how difficult that is to live with?

What about the part of the article that talks about Ashkenazi Jews reducing genetic disorders by using genetic testing in mate selection, is that compassion for their future children? Or "purifying" their race? If the person administering the tests is more concerned about purity than individuals does that become eugenics and does it become dangerous?

I know a couple from my life that were told they were incompatible genetically, and they decided to trust Jesus and have two disabled children who both suffer far more than average and require lifelong support. I think what they did is wrong, both because of the suffering of their children, the burden on society and their family that they knowingly created, and because they're children are on the same ethical dilemma that they were in should they want to have children. Now that the children exist I believe they should get full community support, and they do. There is no reason to punish the child for the parents mistake. But I also don't see the point in pretending the parents didn't make a mistake. (Twice)

I have bad genes, my parents didn't know, but I do know, and I can't imagine feeling good about purposefully passing that down to another generation, my compassion isn't just for my own potential children, but their progeny too. I have trouble respecting people who knowingly, and proudly pass down traits much worse than mine, it seems incredibly selfish and inhumane. I don't understand why being critical of this is off limits for so many people.

I know good and bad traits are subjective at times, but when we go to great lengths to medicate away certain traits, because people can't live with having them, I don't see the harm in trying to prevent those traits from occuring in subtle, non-invasive ways, like education about ways to create legacy and positively influence future generations without reproduction. A lot of people live in reality of "die alone or make babies", helping people see alternatives and making other lifestyles equal could help people make more ethical decisions regarding reproduction.

I see why the distinction is important to you, but I don't think you can have a whole view without both, the suffering of individuals and the suffering of society is so closely related, if you only focus on one you blind yourself to the other and that makes it really easy for people to make horrible decisions.

This is already really long and ranty, but last point is, I know what Nazis are, and just like they're bad socialists that interpret socialist ideals in horrible ways, they are also bad eugenicists, that interpreted the ideas in the worst ways, there are non-fascist compassion motivated alternatives.