Submitted by elimial t3_11i9heq in philosophy
InTheEndEntropyWins t1_jaxdn0b wrote
Reply to comment by Jess3200 in Žižek Has Lost the Plot by elimial
>This is so patently false, the rest of his commentary is brought into question.
I'm not sure you can blame him, it's what all the articles about Tavistock were saying, and it doesn't seem like they have retracted or corrected it.
I mean it sounds crazy, but isn't that why the Tavistock clinic was closed down?
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>Puberty blockers were given to almost all children sent for assessment by Tavistock clinic
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>https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/20/puberty-blockers-given-almost-children-sent-assessment-tavistock/
innocuousEclair t1_jaxpfr1 wrote
No, and I wouldn't be too eager to trust the British press on anything involving transgender people.
ghostxxhile t1_jaznuiw wrote
innocuousEclair t1_jazz077 wrote
Yes, even the Guardian. It was so bad there that at one point the Guardian in America said something.
ghostxxhile t1_jazzpyf wrote
The issue isn’t with Trans rights, it’s about private clinic contracted by the NHS handed out hormone treatment to children without thorough examination from the view of a senior consultant whose heads of Trust tried to silence. If there practice was so morally sound they would have allowed transparency in the report and wouldn’t have tried to shut him down.
This about consent of the child, not being pushed by doctors bankrolled by a public sector contract or pushy parents and be careful and being sure.
The somehow idea that this is against trans rights lack nuance. It isn’t a case of denying treatment, it’s about being damn sure that there isn’t any other underlying mental health issues that maybe spurring the dysphoria like autism, depression or other such things.
innocuousEclair t1_jb00e7r wrote
Stranger, I'm quite sure you aren't reading what I'm saying. I'm talking about bias in the British press. Getting some facts right while spinning them to paint transness in a negative light is still anti-trans. The problem with trans healthcare in the UK is not that too many kids were getting drugs, but that so few trans youth were being seen compared to the number of referrals. The wait lists for first assessments are astronomically high.
ghostxxhile t1_jb00vye wrote
Yes I have no doubt there are various publications presenting the closure of the Tavistock clinic as a means to promote anti-trans idealogy however the point in question, from what I understand is where the closure of Tavistock just and whether it’s practice was sound.
It’s a tragedy that Trans kids face these waiting lists but so is every other sector, including those with cancer, so it’s fundamentally how poor the NHS is being run that is the main problem.
innocuousEclair t1_jb05fww wrote
Its practice wasn't sound. There is no sound public healthcare option for trans people, let alone trans youth, in the UK.
ghostxxhile t1_jb0pxqf wrote
What is sound healthcare for trans youth then?
innocuousEclair t1_jb0rd5b wrote
ghostxxhile t1_jb0rfem wrote
thanks
InTheEndEntropyWins t1_jazuwzq wrote
Isn't this just what the right do, pretend any news they don't like is fake news?
innocuousEclair t1_jazxmm2 wrote
Feel free to dig into the issue and I'm sure you'll agree. There's nothing pretend about the anti-trans bias in the British press.
InTheEndEntropyWins t1_jazy2dp wrote
When they say stuff like the following, that sounds fairly unbiased and objective.
>The NHS gender identity service’s own data shows that 96 per cent of children
Also it's strange to treat all major press including far left media as having an anti-trans bias.
The words anti-trans and transphobic are just thrown around soo much that they have lost all meaning. So when you say that all British media are anti-trans, I have no idea if they actually are anti-trans or if they used some facts you don't like.
innocuousEclair t1_jazysy8 wrote
When I say there's an anti-trans bias in the British press, I don't mean they're using "facts I don't like", I mean that the British press is well-known by the trans community for sensationalizing, fear-mongering, and spinning stories to paint trans people in a negative light.
EstablishmentRude493 t1_jb0xoax wrote
Is your argument that other journalistic outlets reported on the supposed anti-transness of the british press?
e/ for clarity, I do not mean to imply that there is NO anti-trans bias. But I want to get a concrete engagement on the subject as a evidence/clue, not a corporate created algorithm.
innocuousEclair t1_jb0yd2o wrote
I am showing that it was bad enough that a media outlet's American branch felt it necessary to point out. I don't need any media company to report on anti-trans bias in the British press, I can read and see it for myself. If you can't see it after doing some reading for yourself, then you and I are not operating with a shared definition of what it means to have an anti-trans bias. There's nothing supposed about it. It's there in black and white.
Jess3200 t1_jaxl2x1 wrote
Not blaming, but holding to account. He is a very intelligent man, capable of doing his research. Not reading a mainstream media article critically is a tad suspicious of a man renowned for being critical...
The Tavistock was closed down for, essentially, being oversubscribed. The interim report goes into more nuanced detail, of course.
InTheEndEntropyWins t1_jazkxb5 wrote
>The Tavistock was closed down for, essentially, being oversubscribed. The interim report goes into more nuanced detail, of course.
That's just seems like a misleading retelling of history.
If it was solely just closed for being oversubscribed, wouldn't it make sense to wait until the replacement centres were set up first.
Let's look as statement from Cass who is writing the report.
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>Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust has been told to shut the clinic by spring after it was criticised in an independent review.
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>Dr Hilary Cass, said the Tavistock clinic needed to be transformed.
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>She said the current model of care was leaving young people "at considerable risk" of poor mental health and distress, and having one clinic was not "a safe or viable long-term option".
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>Dr Cass's report said there was a lack of understanding about why the type of patients the clinic was seeing was changing, with more female to male patients and more autistic children. Dr Cass also highlighted inconclusive evidence to back some of the clinical decision making.
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>But in 2020, questions about the service were raised after it was rated "inadequate" by inspectors,
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>In an interim report earlier this year, Dr Cass said:
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>The service was struggling to deal with spiralling waiting lists
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>It was not keeping "routine and consistent" data on its patients
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>Health staff felt under pressure to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach"
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>Once patients are identified as having gender-related distress, other healthcare issues they had, such as being neurodivergent, "can sometimes be overlooked"
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>She then suggested introducing local hubs, writing that the current provider model "is not a safe or viable long-term option".
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>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62335665
Jess3200 t1_jb09vpc wrote
Odd. I provided a direct link to the actual report, yet you seem to be quoting from a BBC news piece here...and after I named how suspicious it was the Zizek did the very same.
The actual report spells out the concerns re: how overwhelmed the service was, how frustrated many young people accessing the service were with this and how certain professionals within the service felt their voices weren't being heard. It's clear that the first of these is the most important in the service not being able to meet demand and expectation.
I'd encourage everyone to read the report for themselves.
InTheEndEntropyWins t1_jb0bt7q wrote
>Odd. I provided a direct link to the actual report, yet you seem to be quoting from a BBC news piece here...and after I named how suspicious it was the Zizek did the very same.
If the article is quoting directly from the person who wrote the report or from the report itself I don't see the issue.
Anyway here is a similar quote directly from the report you linked.
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>Primary and secondary care staff
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>have told us that they feel under pressure
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>to adopt an unquestioning affirmative
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>approach and that this is at odds with the
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>standard process of clinical assessment
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>and diagnosis that they have been trained
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>to undertake in all other clinical encounters
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>https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/
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>I'd encourage everyone to read the report for themselves.
Sure, if people believe the BBC is lying they can also do something similar and look up those points from the report itself.
Edit: The interim report clearly mentions failings. Anyone who actually reads it should be in no doubt that Tavistock was shut down partially for it's failings rather than solely because it was oversubscribed.
Jess3200 t1_jb0dksl wrote
They should also recognise that it's failings were largely due to it being oversubscribed. No service can work efficiently when overwhelmed.
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