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N0_IDEA5 t1_jca5cwc wrote

I’m sympathetic to this view, as I feel knowledge should be decoupled from certainty. But I still think truth has a value. While I say we can’t be certain about the truth of any of our beliefs I still think that there is something that is a fact of the matter about the world. And if someone were to fall onto a belief that lines up with the true fact of the matter, then I think if we were to put our selfs into the boots of an all knowing deity then we’d be more inclined to say the person who stumbled onto the truth has something more than the person who’s beliefs are completely mistaken even if equally justified. The article seem to more or less be making an argument for coherentism (we know something based on how well it coheres with our other beliefs) and I feel this notion of knowledge has practical problems as you can just crate another factious belief to justify your belief in anything. It’s what conspiracy theories come from and it’s why they are often so hard to argue. Furthermore if we were to settle on this as knowledge (the best justified belief) then when it comes to education it will become incredibly hard to choose what we should and shouldn’t learn in schools, where as for now we have value in truth and try to teach what we are most likely to know.

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Base_Six OP t1_jcaymh9 wrote

I think truth is the objective of reasonable belief. We can't state that our beliefs are true, but we desire them to be true, which forms the primary motivator of improving our epistemological mechanisms.

I think the problem with coherentism is that it lacks that tie. If I can construct a coherent set of beliefs that I am a brain in a vat, why is that belief set worse than one which believes in my perceived reality? I don't think we can state from a position of pure coherentism why that would be the case. However, I think the argument that it's less reasonable to take a position that denies available evidence than one which accepts available evidence is a reasonable one. Even without being able to describe the likelihood that those foundational beliefs are true, the singularity of evidence in the form of senses and memories gives us only a single point to build off of if we'd like to construct beliefs about the outside world. This also addresses conspiracy theories in a less direct manner: in order to believe a conspiracy theory we generally need to be extremely epistemologically sloppy and disbelieve a lot of available evidence. If we anchor ourselves with the belief that evidence should be taken as reasonable in absence of counter-evidence, denying that evidence to believe a conspiracy is much more difficult.

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N0_IDEA5 t1_jcblh9n wrote

We agree on the issues with coherentism, and I think the idea of taking the position that accepts the apparent evidence is a good one. But even when using that I still think the “fact of the matter” holds importance in us having knowledge. Let’s take a modified case of Norman the clairvoyant. If Norman were to have for the first time the clairvoyant feeling that the president is in New York, and that turns out to be true (the fact of the matter). But he had more evidence pointing to the president being in Florida say there were news reports and others testimony to the president being in Florida. I feel it would be better to say Norman knows the president is in New York and not Florida. Rather than to say Norman knows the president is in Florida.

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arjuna66671 t1_jcbmx1o wrote

Your example of Norman the clairvoyant provides an interesting insight into the relationship between evidence, belief, and truth. While I agree that the "fact of the matter" holds importance in having knowledge, it is also essential to consider the epistemic responsibilities of individuals when forming beliefs. In the case of Norman, even though the clairvoyant feeling turned out to be true, it would be epistemically irresponsible for him to base his beliefs solely on that feeling, given the more robust evidence pointing to the president being in Florida.

Our epistemic responsibility lies in cultivating beliefs based on the most reliable and available evidence. If we anchor ourselves with the principle that evidence should be taken as reasonable in the absence of counter-evidence, then we strive to form beliefs that are more likely to be true, even though we can't guarantee their truth.

In the context of education, the "fact of the matter" still holds value, but the process of refining our beliefs and knowledge should be emphasized. We should teach students to evaluate evidence critically and engage in open-minded inquiry, which can lead them to a better understanding of the world.

While the "fact of the matter" is important for knowledge, focusing on the epistemic responsibility of individuals and the refinement of our belief-forming processes can help address the challenges posed by coherentism and other epistemological theories. This focus on evidence and critical thinking also provides a practical framework for addressing issues in education and countering conspiracy theories.

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Base_Six OP t1_jcbw6yg wrote

The question I would ask is: "Can Norman describe his belief as knowledge?" We can do so in this scenario, but only because of our position as an omniscient outsider. Norman does not have that sort of privileged information.

The relevant question for Norman is what he ought to believe on the basis of the evidence he has. He's got his clairvoyant feelings and some other conflicting external evidence. He can give credence to one or both of those and construct a belief appropriately, which he'll likely do on the basis of other beliefs. In this case, the most reasonable belief in absence of other supporting beliefs (supposing Norman values his clairvoyance) is perhaps a middle position: the President is either in New York or the president is in Florida.

On the other hand, if Norman possesses an evidence-based belief that clairvoyance is impossible, he might dismiss his clairvoyant feelings and conclude that the president is in Florida. Norman would possess a reasonable belief in this case, even if his manifest clairvoyance was in fact accurate. If Norman were to gain additional evidence that the president was in fact in New York (such as a first-hand sighting), he'd be reasonable in revising that belief and in giving more credence to further clairvoyant experiences.

We can categorize Norman's belief as knowledge or non-knowledge in all of these scenarios based on privileged information, but Norman cannot, and Norman's case represents the baseline we should consider when assessing our own beliefs. We can't say if our beliefs amount to knowledge since we aren't omniscient, but we can say if they're reasonable.

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N0_IDEA5 t1_jcc3094 wrote

Sure we are omnipotent in this scenario, but I feel there’s ways to put us into the hypothetical. Perhaps later reports come out to show the president actually was in New York. I feel it irksome to say Norman knew the president was in Florida until the evidence pointing to him being in New York out weighed it, when Norman also had that clairvoyant feeling. But I do think the notion of reasonability is getting somewhere, I just still feel the pull of truth being necessary.

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Base_Six OP t1_jccc12a wrote

I think the pull of truth is what motivates Norman's introspection: what he ultimately desires is a true belief, not one which is coherent. At each step, he assesses the evidence in light of that goal, and constructs the belief that is the most reasonable approximation he can make of the truth.

Irrespective of knowledge, it feels correct to say that Norman had a reasonable belief the the president was in Florida until he got more evidence. It also makes sense for Norman to characterize his beliefs as reasonable without the need to invoke an outside observer. That belief is grounded in truth as a goal, but ultimately independent of the actual facts in the matter.

Suppose we say that Norman is actually a brain in a vat, and that the president was a figment constructed by alien epistemologists experimenting on his perception. This doesn't and can't change his beliefs since it doesn't alter his evidence: his beliefs are still reasonable since they're the best approximation of truth he's capable of constructing. Norman can never say for sure if any evidence he gets is actually indicative of the truth, but he's still capable of engaging rationally with his evidence in an attempt to seek it out.

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