Submitted by Sphaerocypraea t3_xtiajf in philosophy
ShalmaneserIII t1_iqq6axn wrote
Outopos or Eutopos- is it noplace or the good/true place. The ambiguity had to be deliberate.
Metareferential t1_iqqj5ha wrote
It was deliberate and it was a late addition by Thomas More.
See the letters he sent to Erasmus.
koloki8a t1_iqqc4h8 wrote
Utopia is the latin version of the greek word ουτοπία. “ου” and “u” are pronounced the same. So there’s no ambiguity really.
HamaHamaWamaSlama t1_iqr4lfh wrote
“Ου” is not pronounced like “u”, it is pronounced like “oo” (not “o-o”, but “oo”, as in boom). The “ευ” in “eutopia” is pronounced like “ef”.
koloki8a t1_iqrb0an wrote
Agreed yeah, I didn’t mean the english “u” but the latin “u” (same as italian “u”) are pronounced like the greek “ου”
DeathcultAesthete t1_iqr8vy2 wrote
Following the IPA, <ou> is indeed pronounced as /u/.
[deleted] t1_iqrb1l9 wrote
[deleted]
DeathcultAesthete t1_iqred5r wrote
// indicate phonemes, the way a sound is presented within the speaker’s mind. <> indicate orthography. <u> in English is pronounced as /ju/, whereas <oo> as /u/. This distinction illustrates how orthography and pronunciation are two different things.
Provokateur t1_iqsmdmt wrote
We don't know how classic Greek or Latin were pronounced. Because, you know, we don't have audio recordings from 400 BCE. All we have is what it's transitioned into through 2000 years of gradual changes.
Maybe church Latin is pronounced like that, or Italian, but that doesn't tell us much about classical Greek or Latin pronunciation.
What matters is what Thomas More had in mind, which--as the comment above you points out--was intentionally ambiguous.
Archmagnance1 t1_iqtvi4d wrote
There are historical documents from the classical period that are about the pronunciation of latin. Ecclesiastical Latin is church Latin, hence the name, and Classical Latin is how it was (generally) spoken around the time of the texts.
A very easy example to point to is Ceasar being pronounced See-Zar like the salad or Kai-Zar. First is church approved latin and the second is classical.
Here's a couple videos by an Italian Linguist (english, italian, japanese, latin) who also does a lot of history content using primary sources that he can read.
https://youtu.be/x6Fg3RcYKJI differences between the types of latin
https://youtu.be/YlggQMFPjKw reviewing the latin used in Barbarians on Netflix.
j4trail t1_iqqbrkt wrote
The second one would be pronounced like 'eftopos', though.
CPEBachIsDead t1_iqqi8na wrote
In modern Greek, yes. It may surprise you to know that they weren’t speaking modern Greek in the premodern era.
Mr_G_Dizzle t1_iqqja8k wrote
Care to tell us how they would pronounce it in the premodern era?
Remon_Kewl t1_iqqw2vj wrote
Premodern era, like what /u/j4trail said. Ancient era, probably like /u/WaddlingTriforce said. There aren't only ancient greek or modern greek eras. There are a couple of stages in between.
Provokateur t1_iqsnkgd wrote
No one knows. No one has found a pronunciation guide from ancient Greece (and even if we did, it would be written in a language we didn't know how to pronounce, so it wouldn't help) and obviously we don't have audio recordings.
I've taken a few graduate classes in Classical philosophy, and in each the professor said that we don't have the correct pronunciation of terms, so we should just say it phonetically or however we prefer.
What matters is what Thomas More intended in the 16th century, which other comments speak to.
WaddlingTriforce t1_iqqmnjq wrote
Probably something like: "Eh-oo-t-ο-p-os"
(I'm not certain exactly how the omicron was pronounced)
And know that the "Eu" later became the sound "you" as in Euphoria or Euclid, so it'd transform into "you-topia"
Sam_k_in t1_iqsghc9 wrote
Maybe like the german ö?
Remon_Kewl t1_iqqvc3b wrote
Not only in modern greek. Pronunciation started shifting in the hellenistic era with the koine greek. Also, by the time this word was coined, the 16th century, the pronunciation was "eftopia".
CPEBachIsDead t1_iqts5up wrote
And do you suppose Thomas More was intending to harken to the Greek of his day or of the ancients?
Remon_Kewl t1_iqtu3km wrote
I'm gonna guess neither? Or he didn't really care, since utopia first of all isn't the greek form anyway, it's outopia, as others have said in here. Besides, it's not like the english pronunciation of eutopia is closer to the ancient Greek one than "eftopia". The point of the post the person above the one you answered to was that utopia and eutopia would be pronounced the same, which is false.
direwolfexmachina t1_iqspksb wrote
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