Submitted by BernardJOrtcutt t3_y6c1wy in philosophy
ephemerios t1_isqaifn wrote
Reply to comment by Maker623 in /r/philosophy Open Discussion Thread | October 17, 2022 by BernardJOrtcutt
> https://theappalachianonline.com/opinion-truth-objectivity-and-postmodernism/
Is that article a spillover from the late 2010’s 90s-style culture war remake? Stuff like:
>To solve these problems, among others, Karl Marx, began drifting away from Enlightenment principles in search of ideas to eliminate the inequalities brought on by Enlightenment principles. However, the disillusionment with the Enlightenment occurred post World War I and II, when the technological marvels produced by science led to the slaughter of millions.
Doesn’t strike me as particularly productive. Marx pretty much continued the sort of critical philosophy that Kant (perhaps the most important Enlightenment thinker….or at the very least one of the most important ones) pioneered, the post-Kantians systematized, and the German idealists and their successors critiqued sympathetically.
The critique of Enlightenment ideals and conceptions of reason we see after WWII (like, say, Critical Theory and the Frankfurt School, i.e., the eternal bogeyman of a subset of the political right) strike me as perfectly in line with the very spirit of the Enlightenment, which is always also self-critical. Also blaming the disillusionment exclusively on science strikes me as misleading. There was disillusionment with the culture that spawned out of the Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment at large.
>Consistent with postmodern doctrine is the belief that institutions, such as science and language, are oppressive institutes of control.
Who actually claims this and what is their actual argument here? And more importantly, what is the context of this argument? This is an often repeated claim that isn’t entirely wrong, but I worry that it has taken on a life on its own, i.e. separated from actual postmodernist thought.
>If both sides are right and wrong, does that not prove postmodernism’s point that truth is up to individual interpretation? Not exactly. Aristotle solved this philosophical problem in ancient Greece when he theorized that truth and ethical behavior bisect between two extremes, called the “Golden Mean.” Since both sides offer truth and falsehood, given their rejection of the other side’s perspective, then it stands to reason that the middle approach is true, since it formulates a solution based on complete information. To answer humankind’s biggest question pertaining to truth is to find the middle between Enlightenment and postmodern philosophy. To choose one over the other is to look at the world from an incomplete lens. We should strive to reach a reasonable approach toward human progress while acknowledging our personal bias and give those with dissenting beliefs a platform.
Disagree. A better solution would be to first actually understand what led to the disillusionment with Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment ideas and what those critiques of them (especially those that still conceive of themselves as continuing the Enlightenment project or at the very least as laboring in its spirit) say. Especially since this issue doesn’t really seem to be confined to the post-war era:
>Paradoxically, the crisis of the Enlightenment arose from within, and indeed from its most cherished principle. The problem is that this principle is self-reflexive. If reason must subject all beliefs to criticism, it must also subject its own tribunal to criticism. To exempt its tribunal from scrutiny would be nothing less than ‘dogmatism’, accepting beliefs on authority, which is the very opposite of reason. The criticism of reason therefore inevitably became the meta-criticism of reason. If the Enlightenment was the age of criticism, the 1790s were the age of meta-criticism. All the doubts about the authority of reason, which are so often said to be characteristic of our ‘post-modern’ age, were already apparent in late eighteenth-century Germany.
Frederick Beiser’s Hegel, p. 23
Maker623 t1_isqhgo8 wrote
I'm quite confused by your intentions, as you seem to be ranting against the article, but only provided 1 instance on your position about Postmodernism, which is what my entire post is about?
{Consistent with postmodern doctrine is the belief that institutions, such as science and language, are oppressive institutes of control.}"Who actually claims this and what is their actual argument here? And more importantly, what is the context of this argument? This is an often repeated claim that isn’t entirely wrong, but I worry that it has taken on a life on its own, i.e. separated from actual postmodernist thought."
Im guessing you downvoted this also because you don't like the source?
Here's Britannica-
"Postmodernists deny this Enlightenment faith in science and technology as instruments of human progress. Indeed, many postmodernists hold that the misguided (or unguided) pursuit of scientific and technological knowledge led to the development of technologies for killing on a massive scale in World War II. Some go so far as to say that science and technology—and even reason and logic—are inherently destructive and oppressive, because they have been used by evil people, especially during the 20th century, to destroy and oppress others."
Here's The Postil Magazine-
"To the Postmodernist, classical accounts of truth–like that of Plato’s–which use language via propositional logic, or other bodies of knowledge which rely on the experiential, reason, or narrative cannot tell us anything about the world, due to their use of language. The strong Postmodernist must therefore reject science, history, and philosophy, as they attempt to rationalize the world using language."
Here's Why Evolution Is True-
"Empirical evidence is suspect and so are any culturally dominant ideas including science, reason, and universal liberalism. These are Enlightenment values which are naïve, totalizing and oppressive, and there is a moral necessity to smash them."
3 more sources that provide a similar statement to "science and language are oppressive instituts of control". And the point of this argument, at least mine, is to prove how Postmodernism is one of the stupidest, incoherent, illogical, dumbfounded, illiterate, collection of jumbled words and jargon ever put on paper, let alone be spoken out of someone's mouth. While it sounds harsh, I still hold that there are some good takeaways from the theory itself. Especially when it comes to critical thinking, and bringing to light what truly cannot be known.
I encourage you to look at the beliefs of postmodernism, especially on Britannica, as they number the beliefs and explain them. I also would like to know your position on Postmodernism. And I also do not have any comment on Karl Marx, the Enlightenment period, how Postmodernism began, World War 2 technology, or anything other than Does Postmodernism make sense? Provide your explanation" I have already posted my answer, twice.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/postmodernism-philosophy
^HIGHLY RECOMMEND READING^
​
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2019/09/21/postmodernism-explained-and-criticized/
ephemerios t1_it2hlub wrote
> I'm quite confused by your intentions, as you seem to be ranting against the article,
I'm not "ranting" against the article as much as I'm pointing out how vacuous it is.
>but only provided 1 instance on your position about Postmodernism, which is what my entire post is about?
Who cares about my position on postmodernism? What I'm really suggesting is that both you and the author of the article aren't informed enough on what postmodernism even is to adequately critique it.
> Im guessing you downvoted this also because you don't like the source? >
I don't up/downvote on reddit in general, so no.
> I encourage you to look at the beliefs of postmodernism, especially on Britannica, as they number the beliefs and explain them.
Why would I look at a generalist encyclopedia, or even worse, a wholly unrelated evolutionary biology blog that relies on unserious polemics against "postmodernism" like Sokal and Bricmont's work or the output of a known grifter like Helen Pluckrose?
If I really wanted to deep-dive into postmodernism (something I'd have to do before critiquing it), I'd start with the SEP article on it. Or some threads on /r/askphilosophy. Or selected chapters from Garry Gutting's French Philosophy in the Twentieth Century, or Lyotard's The Postmodern Condition, or Cuck Philosophy's Postmodernism FAQ.
>I also would like to know your position on Postmodernism.
Postmodernism is a vacuous term that serves more as a bogey man for reactionary pundits than as a meaningful umbrella term for philosophical positions. Instead, why don't you pick out a "postmodern" philosopher -- either someone who embraced the term like Lyotard or, to a lesser degree, Richard Rorty) or one of those that get regularly accused of being postmodernists, like Derrida or Foucault -- and work through their output?
>And I also do not have any comment on Karl Marx, the Enlightenment period, how Postmodernism began, World War 2 technology, or anything other than Does Postmodernism make sense? Provide your explanation" I have already posted my answer, twice.
Why do you think it is wise to divorce a supposed set of assumptions and conclusions from the historical context out of which they arose?
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