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MrPezevenk t1_itqegjb wrote

Reply to comment by Mkwdr in Peter Singer Is the Philosopher of the Status Quo by TuvixWasMurderedR1P

>than come up with concrete individual actions

Individual actions are explicitly not the point though.

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Mkwdr t1_itqfl0t wrote

That would appear to beg the question. The author thinks individual actions that work within the system are insignificant and the system needs changing as a whole. Well that’s easy to say.

And since in practice there are only the actions of individuals working separately or together _ what do they do to change the whole system and what do they propose to replace it with?

It’s like people protesting to “stop racism!” - well yeh I agree …. and now how do we do actually precisely and practically do that step by step since just saying stop probably isn’t going to do it.

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MrPezevenk t1_itqg3fo wrote

>And since in practice there are only the actions of individuals working separately or together

In practice most actions that are socially significant are collective, not individual, and very hard to reduce to "many different individuals separately doing x and y". If you are asking for a step by step guide of what YOU specifically should do, this is beside the point. If the question is about what a social subject "should" do, then that is a totally different question and a very widely addressed one.

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Mkwdr t1_itqjbgi wrote

Collective is just lots of individuals acting in concert. I don’t see it makes a difference. Lots of people giving to or volunteering for the same charity is a collective action. Just saying “act collectively” isn’t very useful without specifying precisely what to do.

That’s rather my problem with a protest which is of a “stop being bad” nature without doing the more complex work of planning for and persuading for necessity concrete specific steps. Does collective action just mean “if I make enough fuss someone else like the government will sort it out” so my only personal action is to protest?

I think what can I and I should do that will make a difference is not beside the point at all. Including working out how what I can do to influence those with more power to take action. But so is precisely what actions they should undertake.

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MrPezevenk t1_itqlcc9 wrote

>Collective is just lots of individuals acting in concert

Definitely not in concert.

>Does collective action just mean “if I make enough fuss someone else like the government will sort it out” so my only personal action is to protest?

That is very much not the point and as I said before it is also not the point to give a personal manual for any person to follow. The whole point is that "what do I specifically do" is not really a good question because, who are you? And whatever it is that you do end up doing, what does it matter if it's only you doing it? It's like saying, what do I do to create a good blockbuster movie? There is no answer to this, it's a lengthy process that goes through a number of institutions and involves many different bodies of people going back and forth. If the question is, what are the elements of a good blockbuster movie, then the question makes a little bit more sense. It also makes more sense to ask "I am involved in x aspect of y movie, what do I do to do my part well?", and that also makes more sense. Otherwise it doesn't.

Social progress is not something that can be framed individually in the abstract.

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Mkwdr t1_itqo66n wrote

>Collective is just lots of individuals acting in concert

>Definitely not in concert.

Don’t leave me hanging! lol

Collective

> done by people acting as a group.

In concert

> acting jointly.

>That is very much not the point and as I said before it is also not the point to give a personal manual for any person to follow.

In your opinion. As I think I might have mentioned this begs the question. The writer if the article may think that ( though I’m not sure that necessarily true). But he’s disputing what Singer might think. You don’t get to decide the point when that’s in contention.

My point is that real, precise actions for real individuals to do that can make a difference is precisely the point. Such action could be direct or indirect through persuading others to take an action. But what action matters? It’s difficult for individuals to do anything - so don’t take any personal responsibility?

Like I said , it may be that lots of individuals changing their behaviour or indeed acting to persuade others to change their behaviour - is useful. But even more so if they attempt to work out precisely what behaviour needs changing and how.

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MrPezevenk t1_itqotfb wrote

>It’s difficult for individuals to do anything - so don’t take any personal responsibility?

So, stop asking for what abstract individuals should do and start asking what social classes, institutions and movements should be doing. If you want a concrete answer it is not possible to get one on the level of an abstract individual.

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Mkwdr t1_itqq8mm wrote

Um… I was paraphrasing up your argument.

Abstract concepts such as a social class cant do anything… only the individuals that make them up. So we are back to what should the individuals in that group actually do.

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MrPezevenk t1_itqsdbm wrote

>Abstract concepts such as a social class cant do anything…

Yes they can. They do all the time. Let's open a random news article from, uh, say the guardian. Let's look at the title of the first featured international news article:

>Russia-Ukraine war live news: Ukraine fears Russia planning false flag attack amid Kremlin’s ‘dirty bomb’ claims

Neither Ukraine which apparently "fears" nor Russia which apparently is feared to be planning a false flag attack are people. It's an abstraction of multiple different people doing and thinking often conflicting things but summing up to a specific overall direction.

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