Submitted by Maxwellsdemon17 t3_ymq8z6 in philosophy
Reply to comment by Chazmer87 in "A socialist society has no room for parties or trade unions. [...] The struggle is for the simultaneous abolition of both market and production relations, [...]for the abolition of the differences in the working class brought about by the capitalist division of labor." by Maxwellsdemon17
Coercion is not Cooperation. You can cooperate in a liberal society under capitalism, Marxism isn't cooperation it's necessarily coercive and oppressive - just ask what yourself what you do with people that don't feel like "cooperating."
And under capitalism one trespassing is not cooperating and gets shot. It seems to be a feature of every system that those not cooperating as the official principle says, will get locked up. And when they cannot be fit into cells, they are put into camps!
You can compete in a Marxist society too?
The soviet Union had plenty factories, beaureu's and individuals all competing with each other. I'm not a Marxist but that's just established history.
When did I say anything about "competing in a Marxist society?"
What do you do with people who don't want to cooperate (i.e., liberals)? You have to reeducate them, throw them in the gulag or eliminate them. Liberal societies tolerate communists (just form a commune), communist societies are intolerant of liberals.
>What do you do with people who don't want to cooperate (i.e., liberals)
If you function in a society you're cooperating. Which Liberal isn't cooperating? A society without cooperation is just anarchy.
Liberals are ideologically opposed to communism. Any communist system would see resistance from the liberals trapped inside. So what do you do with the liberals that refuse to cooperate within the oppressive communist system? What do you do about those pesky humans that believe in individual human rights and freedom? Exactly as I've said and it's already been demonstrated plenty of times. (The communists start chanting "one of us. One Of Us. ONE OF US!" as they surgically remove your your soul and your humanity from your body).
There's a straight line from the idea of communism to the oppression, coercion and murder required to actually run it. Communism is incredibly evil.
You don't do anything? Why would you need to do something?
That's some strawman.
Then it isn't communism. You're attempting to paint communism as if it were liberalism where everyone gets to live the lives they want but that's not communism. You don't get individual human rights under communism because what matters is the "greater good" and not the good of the individual or their interests. "What you do" as a communist is exactly what I've already mentioned, which is exactly what communists have been doing for about a century now.
Remember again that in a liberal-democracy nothing is forbidding the communist from getting together with their communist friends and forming a commune. The good guys are obvious.
Jfc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
You're almost like the personification of the mocking "everything bad is communism" meme.
>Remember again that in a liberal-democracy nothing is forbidding the communist from getting together with their communist friends and forming a commune.
You don't think I'll be arrested for seizing the means of production?
Communism is more than just sitting in a commune, it's an entire economic system. The same way that capitalism is very different from feudalism.
Buddy there are NO individual human rights under communism. There were NO individual human rights in the Soviet Union. Are you kidding me? How are you going to completely ignore the red terror, the holomodor, or the gulags where innocent people were used for slave labour, starved to death and replaced with another innocent person.
You're the personification of complete nativity and ignorance. What a bloody fool.
"Seizing the means of production" = violating someone else's individual human rights. You're my proof.
Edit: one of you guys.. the Soviet Union was in fact what communism looks like. You can trace the root of the evil in the Soviet Union to the evil conception of communism as a straight line. Communism is necessarily coercive and oppressive. You can't force everyone to want to participate in your communist experiment, some folks believe in individual human rights. You're wrong. Quit drinking the kool-aid.
The Soviet Union did not achieve true Communism.
The means/vision to try to get there were prescribed by the vanguard/bolsheviks and then distorted/reimagined after Lenin’s death with Stalinism.
The Soviet Union went from a peasant agrarian society to full on industrialism within 30-50 years. The Communist ideal didn’t lead to the atrocities that happened under the Soviet Union (capitalism has its fair share as well). It was the material conditions that were operated from, the participation in a world war, the top down leadership approach, etc.
You’re copying propaganda from a place entirely lacking of nuanced thinking.
Communism inevitably leads to the death of people from hunger. The state cannot regulate all the needs of the people. The atrocities that took place under capitalism were simply natural for this time. And in these cases, some people suffered from others, but not from the state.
My relatives miraculously did not die of starvation under the USSR. The planned economy sucks.
The problem is that "real communism" cannot exist, the methodology Marx prescribes is the absurd absolute rule of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" to achieve a stateless society. In reality the only thing that comes from this dictatorship is a dictatorship. Imagine that.
The realms in which they actually competed were basically centered around climbing the government and bureaucratic ranks by lying and deceiving others.
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