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ThalesBakunin t1_iyh69pw wrote

As an atheist who goes crazy for Christmas I must agree

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CanterburyTerrier t1_iyiaeet wrote

There's a really interesting book which delves into the "roots" of Christmas called The Battle for Christmas by Nissenbaum. It doesn't focus on the ancient or Medieval origins of Christmas, but the evolution of Christmas as a thing that was wholly torn apart during the rise of Puritanism. Ancient customs associated with harvest and winter larders were wiped away by a Christian ethic of temperance. Basically, they wanted drudgery without punctuation and saw winter celebrations as drunken revelry... which it was, but they didn't see the need for it.

If you want to kind of get an inkling of those older traditions, you can kind of hear it in albums like The Christmas Revels: In Celebration of the Winter Solstice.

I say, kind of hear, because a lot of those traditions were wiped away and we have to reassemble them. It's not exactly the same, but it's kind of like Pacific Islanders having to reassemble their language and traditions after the colonial period tried to scour it away.

Anyway, the book explains how the Christmas we know today... the Victorian, Dickensian Christmas was, oddly enough, a product of Dickens coming to America and his readings of Washington Irving (who also kind of invented Halloween). The traditions in a Christmas Carol aren't invested in Christian imagery. They are invested in a type of pagan tradition that Dickens assembled or invented.

So, in the end, the hard to define element of Christmas might actually owe a lot to the murky nature of the traditions themselves.

Edit: Also, Christ's birthday was one of the few events which didn't seem to have an associated date which lined up with the Jewish calendar and Holidays so it was easy to assign to the Solstice celebrations.

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ThalesBakunin t1_iyiaomb wrote

Thanks for the recommendation of literature. I love that kind of stuff as I'm a bit of an anthropology/history buff.

In my house we wish each other happy Saturnalia.

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CanterburyTerrier t1_iyic2p2 wrote

You'd love the Christmas Revels album. "The boars head in hand bear I, bedecked with sage and rosemary!"

The book goes into a lot of class warfare and how Christmas was traditionally a time when peasants would remind land holders of their tenuous hold on power.

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e_sandrs t1_iyip74g wrote

I'm not going to remember enough details, but I recall reading somewhere that some "Early Christian Scholars" decided at one point that Jesus must have been both conceived and killed on the same day of "Easter" (not even touching the origins of that name here) for....reasons. Add 9 months to a Spring conception and you end up with a birthday around the Winter Solstice. See? It All Makes Sense Like It Should.

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akebonobambusa t1_iyk7nfb wrote

Jesus conception is the Annunciation and it's on March 25. The conception and birth of Jesus are based in the spring equinox and the winter solstice. Easter is based on a lunar calendar which is why it moves around.

The equinox and the beginning of spring sound similar but they most certainly are not. The beginning of Spring is the arrival of new life. The equinox is the turning.

Easter is also tied to Passover so it has another facet.

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ph30nix01 t1_iyj409o wrote

To be honest I always felt Christians tainted things with their shit. Every concept not of themselves they destroy.

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mytwocentsshowmanyss t1_iyjkre0 wrote

Why was the christian ethic against winter larders? Did they just go hungry?

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CanterburyTerrier t1_iyjxg16 wrote

They were fine with a surplus of food being stored. They didn't like the revelry associated with winter excess. Supposedly, winter was a time of low work requirements in agriculture. The crops were brought in and you had a good understanding of how much food you had to last you through the winter. A dependable excess meant you could party. Slaughter was traditionally done when temperatures dropped to preserve meat. You either ate it or salted it. Eating fresh meat was preferred. Beer and wine were also supposedly ready in December, though I don't know why?

December was a time to gorge.

Puritans did not like the excess and drunken revelry as a custom.

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AUserNeedsAName t1_iykb9lt wrote

>Beer and wine were also supposedly ready in December, though I don't know why?

I'm just a homebrewer, but I may have an (uneducated) answer to that. It takes ales about 3-4 weeks to ferment at 70F (slower in the cold), and lagers 4-8 weeks at 50F. This USDA source shows European spring barley harvests as ending in late September/October, about 8-12 weeks before the winter solstice/Christmas. This PDF from the University of Vermont shows the 2019 hops harvest peaking in late September, which is pretty typical. Sierra Nevada releases their Fresh Hop IPA each December to maximize hop freshness and showcase the year's harvest, for instance.

Figure a few weeks to get your other harvested goods stored before starting your brew and the timeframe lines up perfectly. You can also hold beer longer to let it mellow (Oktoberfest lagers are called Märzens because you brew them in March and let them sit), especially at low temperatures, so mid-to-late December should be the start of a peak beer season that dwindles slowly into the spring, at which point your winter barley is ready for harvest and a new brewing period begins.

EDIT: I forgot those timeframes are with modern commercial yeasts. If you factor in wild or other pre-modern fermentation methods, the fermentation time increases and no fudge factor or waiting period would be required.

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kaustickelpie t1_iyhvu2k wrote

Lol I'm an atheist who fucking loves Christmas too and ironically my favorite thing to collect are nativity scenes. Fucking love those things and I have no good reason why lol

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Jaivanh t1_iyi7t9f wrote

I am also an atheist, here is the nativity scene my father in law made in the early 70s he passed it on to us as it is too difficult for him to set up now.

Picture

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kaustickelpie t1_iyigolg wrote

Omg that's gorgeous! And looks really good for its age!

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Jaivanh t1_iyjd1g5 wrote

Yes, we are pleased with how it's aging.

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Fever_Raygun t1_iyi0cm7 wrote

Do you just like dioramas in general?

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kaustickelpie t1_iyi1lfi wrote

Not particularly? I mean, I was raised Christian so maybe it's just strong nostalgia, it's hard to say. But man I love my nativity scenes lol I'm trying to convince my husband to let me get the huge plastic light up figures for the lawn lol

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coolthesejets t1_iyjmbsm wrote

You made me realize I've been having dissonance with my atheism and love of Christmas iconography.

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kaustickelpie t1_iyjusgx wrote

Oh? Yeah I've always found it strange... I love gospel music and have a strange fascination with finding nuns adorable lol not in a fetish way but more awww. Even though I know that most people's real life interactions with them haven't been pleasant. My husband was raised Catholic and everything about it fascinates me. I went to a funeral once (someone I didn't know) and just had to contain my excitement over seeing a catholic church. It's so fucking weird lol

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GoSeeCal_Spot t1_iyjx58i wrote

Most Christmas iconography is older then Christianity.

Celebration of the dark ending is as old as agriculture.

As is kiling people on a cross.

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OrsonWellesghost t1_iyjkqfb wrote

Nativity crèches are even better when you realize they were started as a tradition by St Francis of Assisi, who was a brilliant communicator and educator. (Maybe someone can correct me)

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FabulouslyFrantic t1_iyj4373 wrote

The feeling of warmth and togetherness gets me.

The aesthetic of trees, lights, holly, and snow is pure bliss.

I know another year is over and I have spring to look forward to.

BING MF CROSBY (and I grew up in Romania, was born at the end of communism) and his fantastic voice.

And more recently I've turned to celebrating in a more pagan way - by hosting dinners on the Solstice.

I just love Christmas, I can't wait to put up my tree! (Putting it up early isn't really a thing here, I might set it up around the 20th, for reference).

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Duckboy_Flaccidpus t1_iyk4vvl wrote

More seasonally related but I've come to really not enjoy peak Summer's as much. The 10 year old in me is bitching and moaning but they truly aren't enjoyable, Fall is the best what with the temperment climate and leave colors but probably some of the most blissful days happen in the winter with soft snow covered ground, clear skies with sunshine, no wind and maybe a balmy 20F. That's when you go for a nature hike or run outside or ice fish.

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FabulouslyFrantic t1_iylhgat wrote

Summer is overrated by far.

The best times of year are September, October and May.

Summer is for hiding from the sun and trying to not get sweat-glued to your chair.

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Hagisman t1_iyjxhod wrote

At one point there were Atheist Christmas Carol groups. Don’t know if they still exist.

They were covered in US news pre COVID.

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ThalesBakunin t1_iyk3fqi wrote

Well I can't pretty much guarantee you that they are not any in my state.

But my wife would absolutely love that. She misses choir so much. Because of religious saturation freaking much any singing group is affiliated with a church. We have looked and there are no secular choirs around. Much less atheist.

She joined one that said it wasn't but then they prayed like 4 times during the first rehearsal and she bounced.

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