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GrymanOne t1_j1wo8k6 wrote

>In light of such a doom, it is perhaps tempting to suggest that nothing matters. But this is incorrect for the same reasons it would be in a non-determined world. All our choices and actions still matter and still change our lives and our world exactly as before. The only difference is the realization that we could not have done otherwise.

I'm not sure I agree. If the universe is indeed determined, and all actions are necessary, then as you state, no one could have done otherwise. If so, would one not be more than a pre-programmed robot following a pre-determined path? What meaning would life have other than that of the voyeur? Furthermore, if all actions are necessary, then all events happen as they must. If I choose to not work, that was pre-determined. If I choose to work, that was pre-determined. That's not a choice, it's just what was to happen, and therefore, why should it matter at all what my perceived choice was?

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Jingle-man t1_j1wu50i wrote

>What meaning would life have other than that of the voyeur?

The word "voyeur" implies the spectating of something of which you are not a part. But we all are part of the cosmic drama. Our roles (and the roles of every atom) may be already written, but it's still our story.

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GrymanOne t1_j1xvuh4 wrote

Aye, perhaps the wrong word, but I do believe you understand what I was proposing. How does this differ from a puppet in a play? The marionette controls the puppet, the puppet cannot do otherwise, but surely it's the puppet's story to tell, is it not?

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Jingle-man t1_j1yf288 wrote

It doesn't differ really. We are puppets. Is that so bad?

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YuGiOhippie t1_j1yx3ab wrote

If you’re whole life philosophy can be simplified to “we are puppets is that so bad?”

I pity your view of the world. What a huge nihilist waste of time this universe is.

The holocaust? We are puppets, that’s not so bad.

A child tell it’s mother he lovers her. We are puppets, who cares?

This very argument we are having - why have it - shouldn’t we all kill ourselves and end it? we are puppets what’s so bad?

Basically you don’t have a philosophy of life. You have a non-philosophy of non-life.

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Jingle-man t1_j1zh9g2 wrote

But if nothing matters, then everything matters!

>What a huge nihilist waste of time this universe is.

That's precisely what makes the universe so beautiful: the fact that it is unnecessary.

If you can't find fulfilment in the cosmic game, if you insist that only useful things have value, and things aren't worth caring about unless they mean something – then I pity your view of the world; it seems like a very exhausting way to think.

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YuGiOhippie t1_j1zke87 wrote

The unnecessary-ness of the universe means that all it’s elements are contingent :

Contingent is that which could’ve been something else ; that’s the beauty of it : it was unnecessary : not determined to be as such.

Your position is self-defeating.

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Jingle-man t1_j20m3p2 wrote

No: the elements of the universe follow necessarily from each other, can not be anything other than they are. But the very fact that anything is at all is unnecessary in that there might as well be nothing. The drama follows a necessary path, but the drama itself is an unnecessary phenomenon. There doesn't need to be a universe. But there is. And that's beautiful.

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Polychrist t1_j22f7br wrote

So you believe that the existence of the universe itself is a non-determined random occurrence? Because that’s what it sounds like…

And if it’s possible for that occurrence to be non-determined and unnecessary, then how can you be so sure that there are no other non-determined and unnecessary events?

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Jingle-man t1_j23amaw wrote

>So you believe that the existence of the universe itself is a non-determined random occurrence? Because that’s what it sounds like…

Language fails. These words don't really mean much when we're talking about an object of which there is no outside. The universe cannot be said to follow from anything else, because there is nothing before it. Nor can it be said to serve any other purpose than itself, because there is nothing beyond it. The universe is not an occurrence; it is occurrence itself, the entire web of causality.

Things that occur occur necessarily – but does occurrence have to occur? It makes no sense for something to necessarily cause causality itself. Thus I do not believe the universe can be called a necessary phenomenon, even though all that is a part of it necessarily follows.

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Polychrist t1_j23s9ip wrote

How can you know that there is nothing outside of our universe, or nothing beyond it?

And assuming that you’re correct, and there’s nothing else— is it actually possible that the universe would not have been? How could a particular state of affairs ever emerge from a non-state of affairs, except by random occurrence or necessity?

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Jingle-man t1_j23x5o5 wrote

>How can you know that there is nothing outside of our universe, or nothing beyond it?

Because the word "universe" literally means all that exists. If there's something beyond what we call universe, then what we call universe isn't universe at all.

>is it actually possible that the universe would not have been?

Is it possible that Possibility could not have been? ... is what you mean to ask. As I say, language fails.

>How could a particular state of affairs ever emerge from a non-state of affairs, except by random occurrence or necessity?

That is quite literally the Great Question, that no one is qualified to answer. But how could Occurrence itself be a random occurrence? "Randomness" refers to the interaction of possibilities; so how can randomness exist prior to existence and possibility itself?

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Polychrist t1_j244foz wrote

Well, that’s just the thing— if it’s nonsense to talk about occurrences not occurring, or possibilities not being possible, then it seems the universe must exist out of necessity. To say that it is possible that possibilities wouldn’t exist, is nonsense— therefore it is a contradiction to say that the universe could’ve not been.

Perhaps the universe only exists because it would’ve been a logical contradiction for it not to have.

Or perhaps the universe (not just the observable universe post big-bang, but the potential multiverse structure beneath it which you would also deem part of the “universe,” or “all that exists,”) has always existed, and is persistent unchanging in some sense, and therefore could not have not been either.

I’m just not sure that it made sense when you said that it’s possible that there would’ve been nothing, and that makes it beautiful that there’s something. I would argue that it’s either not possible that there was nothing, I.e. the existence of the universe itself is necessary, I.e. it’s non-existence would be a contradiction, or else other non-necessary entities may exist.

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Jingle-man t1_j249jeo wrote

>I’m just not sure that it made sense when you said that it’s possible that there would’ve been nothing, and that makes it beautiful

It didn't make sense at all, because language can't really capture this kind of thing well. But to be fair, I said "the universe might as well not have been" which isn't wrong. There's no reason for the universe to exist, but neither is there any reason for it not to exist. The universe is "unnecessary" in that its existence itself is not a matter of necessity. The universe truly "doesn't need to exist" because "need" implies necessity. But as I've said again and again, Necessity is not necessary. It is (that is, the universe is) unnecessary.

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Polychrist t1_j249q4x wrote

And I disagree. I think the existence of the universe is necessary.

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YuGiOhippie t1_j20rwfa wrote

You cannot prove that the elements follow necessarily.

They follow contingently.

That’s my point.

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Jingle-man t1_j20towl wrote

No one can ever prove that (A) could have led to (C) rather than (B); nor can one, as it stands, prove that it could only lead to (B); because the only reality we have access to is the one in which (A) indeed did lead to (B). In the absence of cold hard proof, I am left with only intuition and faith.

I do not believe that, if we could rewind time and let it proceed again, anything different would occur. That's the long and short of it. That idea doesn't fill me with existential dread, because it quite literally changes nothing about how I inhabit the world – except that it gives me a poetic sense of contentment and soothes some fears.

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YuGiOhippie t1_j20v2dz wrote

You’re free to have faith in your own lack of freedom sure, if that makes you feel better.

Ironic considering your determinist position.

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Jingle-man t1_j20vx0j wrote

You have a very narrow idea of fate and belief if you think there's any irony to what I've said. Don't take things so seriously!

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VitriolicViolet t1_j21xlpj wrote

whats wrong with it?

we are puppets, puppets who pull their own strings. what he stated is not nihilism, nihilism would go on to claim that due to being puppets we should not pull our own strings (big difference between ''theres no meaning'' and ''theres no point in making your own meaning'')

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YuGiOhippie t1_j22aoz9 wrote

A puppet who’s strings are being pulled cannot “make meaning”

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smariroach t1_j243fou wrote

This seems like an argument motivated by bitterness. The statement was that it's not so bad to be puppets, not that we shouldn't care about any particular things that take place. And how can the universe be a waste of time? Time can only be wasted from the perspectives of those that find value in time, and therefore it can only be wasted if you assign it some value. It has value to humans, so given that we don't exist independently from the universe we must appreciate the universe if we find value in anything at all.

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YuGiOhippie t1_j25dkaw wrote

Puppets cannot care. That’s the point.

Their care, their meaning, is a fake if it’s pre-determined. It is not authentic. It doesn’t arise from choice only necessity if we are puppets.

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smariroach t1_j25ldfo wrote

Puppets cannot care, but we're not literal puppets. We can care, and have meaning.

Saying that caring is fake if it's pre-determined is not self evident.

All it means is that whether we care is dependent on what it is we care (or don't care) about and who we are. We could not be other than we are, and the things we form opinions about could not be other than they are, and therefore we will care (or not).

Why is the care only authentic if we can break the laws of causality? What does your use of "authentic" and "fake" mean in this context?

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YuGiOhippie t1_j25mm7g wrote

If you cannot choose to care or not you are not really caring or not caring.

A puppet can act as if it cares but it’s a meaningless act.

A puppet forced to care by the laws of causality doesn’t really care. It’s not authentic because it’s forced.

Do you love me if i tell you with a gun to your head that you must love me? Of course not. Even if you swear YOU LOVE ME : if i forced you to say it : it is not authentic.

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smariroach t1_j263x1j wrote

> If you cannot choose to care or not you are not really caring or not caring.

Why not? what is it that you think it means to "care" about something?

I would like it if you stop mentioning puppets because I have a hard time knowing if you're being metaphorical or if I'm expected to explain in what way a literal puppet is not like a human, it would help me understand more clearly what you mean.

>It’s not authentic because it’s forced. I'm still not sure I understand why the unavoidable nature of the feeling makes it inauthentic.

>Do you love me if i tell you with a gun to your head that you must love me? Of course not. Even if you swear YOU LOVE ME : if i forced you to say it : it is not authentic.

That's not a good analogy, because loving and saying you love are two completely different things. A better question would be: if we discovered a drug that would cause a person who takes it to fall in love with the first person they see (a classic love potion), would that person be in love if they took it, and they felt the effects? In this example, the feeling, emotion, everything, is in every way like love that the subject would have felt had they fallen in love without the drug. Are they "really" in love now or not? If not, why? how do you define "love" in a way that excludes what this person is feeling?

And what if we take it the other direction. What if you work out, becoming attractive and behave in such an impressive, kind and likable way that it makes me fall in love with you. Is if inauthentic since it's caused by what you did, therefore you having "forced" me to love you since I would not have had you not done those things?

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YuGiOhippie t1_j26maaf wrote

Cool now love doesn’t exist because it can’t be defined outside of your presupposed deterministic world view.

Nihilism as I said.

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smariroach t1_j280kp4 wrote

You don't seem to be trying to to provide your own definitions, reasons, or elaborations, and you ignore all my questions. I'm not sure why you are here if you don't want to explore philosophy.

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YuGiOhippie t1_j28hhfd wrote

You know what is great? This fruitless conversation is not determined to go on endlessly: you are free to disengage at anytime

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InTheEndEntropyWins t1_j1yl4c5 wrote

> The marionette controls the puppet, the puppet cannot do otherwise, but surely it's the puppet's story to tell, is it not?

Because the strings controlling us isn't something separate or different to us.

One could say that everything we do is fully determined by our DNA and environment/upbringings/experiences. But someone's DNA and experiences aren't something separate and external to a person.

A person is their DNA and experiences.

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VitriolicViolet t1_j21xxkx wrote

this, both sides really, really try hard to deny what makes up 'you'.

i make all my own choices by definition as 'i' am the sum of my memories, neurons, genes, culture etc the free willers think we have souls and the determinists believe the body and mind are separate.

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Aka-Pulc0 t1_j1wqqaw wrote

I dunno how deep you are in deterministic philosophy (I am myself still in shallow water) but a short answer may be that you can still make a choice even if the choice you made was pre-determined. And that choice matter because you made it.

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GrymanOne t1_j1wrzu6 wrote

I too am still in shallow waters, which is why I'm engaging. It's hard to have these conversations at the bar, as most cannot follow the logic or reasoning.

The thesis for determinism is that all events are necessary. If it was necessary because that event was predetermined, then what choice was there in the matter? My "choice" may matter, simply because it HAS to matter, but it's still a hard pill to swallow to say that my actions are not my own.

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Aka-Pulc0 t1_j1wtjuh wrote

It s 1 am here =) i ll follow up tomorrow with a better explanation of my point. I m new here and glab to have these conversations!

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mcr1974 t1_j1x6oby wrote

Why would the fact that they are pre-determined not make them your own though?

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GrymanOne t1_j1xvnbr wrote

Well, I did them, but did I have a choice? Again, if all actions are necessary, then I could have done no other than what I have done. What choice in the matter did I have? If not my own choice, was it my own action?

This is not to say that all actions are not caused. I think one could argue that indeed all actions are caused. But caused actions do not mean predetermined. Caused actions are not necessary, are they? But again, if all events are necessary, and all events are actions, and all actions are caused...

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Jingle-man t1_j20q1t9 wrote

>If not my own choice, was it my own action?

Of course! Why wouldn't it be?

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YuGiOhippie t1_j1yxc99 wrote

All events are contingent.

Not necessary.

This is the shallows waters in which most people drown in determinism.

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GrymanOne t1_j209ogw wrote

And yet I just had my Intro to Philosophy professor tell me that the very thesis of Determinism is: All events are necessary.

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YuGiOhippie t1_j20rn7b wrote

Yup it’s a thesis.

But you should ask your professor the difference between necessary and contingent facts.

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GrymanOne t1_j20s2a7 wrote

We did cover this.

>Observe that saying that event E is contingent is the same thing as saying that event E is “not necessary,” and saying that event E is necessary is the same thing as saying that event E is “not contingent.”
>
>So “necessary” and “contingent” are inter-definable. Be aware of that.

In his words, another way to write the thesis would be: No events are contingent.

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gradual_alzheimers t1_j1yffkf wrote

I find it so strange that if the world is indeed deterministic why on earth would it spend so much time debating deterministically about its own free will. What would compel a process to have meta reflection? The fact that we engage in discussion and consider other points of views on this subject at all just seems strange regardless if determinism is true or not -- and to be honest I don't know the answer but this point has always been odd.

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Olympiano t1_j1z2vms wrote

I think what drives it is that discovery and striving to understand things feels good, or is rewarding in some manner. I guess it’s a result of evolution reinforcing this as well as our intelligence and the ability to reason abstractly, and when they come together, we wander into strange territory and begin to examine ourselves as well as the world.

I have heard a theory that our self-awareness is not even necessary for what we have achieved as a species though, and that it’s simply an incidental byproduct of the development of our intelligence. Some things just evolve incidentally without necessarily conferring a benefit in itself. So maybe the level of abstraction we’ve reached where we are self-aware is just… an accident of evolution. Maybe it’s possible for humanity to have done just as much but not possess this extra ability.

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flynnwebdev t1_j1yj9pg wrote

Meaning arises from a mind experiencing something. Even if what happens is deterministic, your mind will still assign various levels of meaning to it. You still experience meaning, regardless of whether you had a choice or not.

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brian_heriot t1_j1xnd60 wrote

Yeah, but any moral value or shall we say "value judgment" placed on determinism (i.e. "By golly, no free will is bad---it shouldn't exist!") is not a sensible and valid stance, as belief that no free will is "wrong" is just a measure of how much someone doesn't like there not being free will. Hard determinism, if it exists is neither a bad nor good thing:, it's just how things are.

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VitriolicViolet t1_j21x8u1 wrote

>If so, would one not be more than a pre-programmed robot following a pre-determined path?

its still 'you' making those choices, whether or not 'you' could choose differently is irrelevant.

even if no one could have possibly chosen differently they still chose.

to me it seems like determinists believe in souls by necessity ('you' are your genes and neurons so even if 'you' cant actively control them they are still 'you')

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