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ranker2241 t1_j2npwms wrote

TF A CHILDRRNS PRISON

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Primary-Initiative52 t1_j2nrzf4 wrote

That would be a prison for young offenders, ages 13 to 17. Below 13 they don't (usually) go to prison, and above 17 they are adults. The author of the article seems to be deliberately using the word "children" instead of "young offenders" to promote a sympathetic response.

I don't see the author offering alternatives here. The sad fact is that children can be MONSTROUSLY violent...and yes, usually because they are poor, disenfranchised, uneducated (let's all please remember that schools are not equipped to deal with violet/recalcitrant students...you've got to be able to get along and function in a reasonable manner to be successful in school.) I wish the author would spell out their alternatives...make it plain, what do you suggest?

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hydrOHxide t1_j2nufjl wrote

And showing monstrously violent children that it's OK to be monstrous to other people is going to help how?

Not sure about the author, but how about instead of setting up the prison system to be monstrous to people, take a look at some other countries? Whereas the anglosphere on both sides of the pond gets off on trying children as adults, other countries allow up to 21 year olds to be tried as juveniles if their maturation is clearly delayed. They also have supervised living arrangements for non-violent offenders etc.

If all you perceive is monsters, monsters is what you're going to get. If you waste any chance at them becoming competent citizens, don't blame them either. Cherrypicking extreme examples just to excuse not putting in even the slightest effort to turn their life around is no less monstrous.

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Atxscrew t1_j2qkewt wrote

Some countries don't have life imprisonment. So the function of them would be to rehabilitate because someday they will be out. Portugal is one such example. So is Norway. One quote I read is "We send murderers and rapists to prison to then be harmed by institutionalized violence (murder and rape factories, aka prisons) and hope that when they come home, they are 'reformed'" Edit: article about long sentences rethinking long prison sentences

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birdandsheep t1_j2twa6k wrote

I was incarcerated as a minor for being monstrously violent. I was smart enough to get my life together. I saw these kids first hand. Many of them will never be able to be fixed. They were born different or fucked up beyond repair. My personal history makes me extremely sympathetic to people who want forgiveness, but not everyone is capable of earning that forgiveness.

It is also patently untrue that children's prisons in the US don't make efforts to help the prisoners. Where I was, there was individual therapy twice a week and group therapy three or four days per week. Sometimes less, if the unit was dangerous. But the staff cared and put in effort to teach us life skills, emotional skills, etc. I got three different job certifications in prison that I was able to use to help me support myself in college.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm glad you're sympathetic and have a sense of outrage about the prison system, and I'm sure that there are places that care less about the kids than where I was. But I want to caution you against being too critical. Juvenile recidivism is a lot lower than adult recidivism. The system works better than you think.

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[deleted] t1_j2nsuc4 wrote

[deleted]

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spun2020 t1_j2qokin wrote

Its not about reform or pennince or justice. Our system justice system is designed for one purpose, profit. creating repeat customers is what they do, and they do it well. If they can put more kids in cuffs they would, A lifelong customer

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coyote-1 t1_j2o1r7k wrote

I love that, in an ideal world

However. The existence of these unfortunate young people tells us we do not live in an ideal world. And at a certain point, protecting society from these people has to trump their rehabilitation if it’s been demonstrated that such rehabilitation is not working in the present moment.

Crappy choices all around. No right answer.

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LazerPlatypus91 t1_j2p1fj1 wrote

In the real world, real prisons do real harm by real metrics. There is a right answer. Just about anyone can be fixed. Even then, even if we agree that some people are just hurricanes, we can allow them to live sequestered but humanely in comfort.

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Mustelafan t1_j2ptbaj wrote

What do we call a facility where these 'hurricanes' can be sequestered? 'Hurricane sequestration facility' seems a mouthful. Is there a shorter word we can use? Something about six letters long, perhaps?

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logan2043099 t1_j2p6jk4 wrote

What rehabilitation do you think is happening in prisons?

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coyote-1 t1_j2ppgzf wrote

None. But refer back to my “protecting society“ comment… if a 15 year old has demonstrated antisocial behavior that is clearly dangerous to others, along with an abject refusal to learn anything different, there has to be a point at which that 15 year old, at least in the present moment, has to be locked up to protect society. Dunno about you, but I’m not willing to sacrifice multiple lives in the slim hope of rehabbing that one life.

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logan2043099 t1_j2proz6 wrote

So fear then that's why you're okay with it. How many mass murdering teenagers do you think are locked up? You demand personal growth from these kids and then give them no chance at it by locking them up. Purely because you fear that they will commit more crime and have decided to write their entire life off as a failure because of it. You won't even give them the chance at rehabilitation since you admit that prison is not where you find it.

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coyote-1 t1_j2pyf9l wrote

Not ok with it. Just unclear on the possibilities here. I leave it to you to come up with an alternative that works, given what our society - and that includes you - is willing to devote in terms of human & financial resources.

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rottentomatopi t1_j2q178m wrote

The thing that is possible (because it has been done in other countries with success) is reform our prison system to actually BE rehabilitative. We already know how to make them so, but the prison industrial complex does not want that change to happen. Doesn’t mean we should give up fighting for reform now.

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PaxNova t1_j2pca28 wrote

Rehabilitation is unfortunately but one reason to send someone to prison. I firmly believe that everyone can be saved, but that doesn't mean we have the capability to save them right now. Sequestration is another reason for prison, since there's nothing we can do for them but stop them from harming others.

It feels like giving up, because it is, but sometimes there isn't a better option.

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LaskerEmanuel t1_j2p9fei wrote

You think that using the word “children” to refer to persons under 17 is unnatural but “young offender” is a perfect fit?

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Primary-Initiative52 t1_j2pgbm3 wrote

I never said that at all. I said the author "seems to be deliberately" using the word children instead of young offenders to promote a sympathetic response. I also never said that I thought this was a bad idea.

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LaskerEmanuel t1_j2ph76h wrote

As I look around at all of the alleged and potential young offenders in my life, including those alleged and potential young offenders in my family and the alleged and potential young offenders in my community on their way to and from their assigned government education/correction facility, I can’t help but hope that we some day have better language to refer to these “young offenders”.

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Mustelafan t1_j2psvey wrote

They're young and they broke the law, i.e. are offenders. What else should they be called?

I love how this subreddit of 'philosophers' gets offended by innocuous and reasonable questions and just silently downvotes instead of offering any serious answer.

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WelcomeToGlorantha t1_j2t4ozn wrote

They were convicted of breaking the law, although they might not have. One alternative term is incarcerated children.

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qscguk1 t1_j2qt86z wrote

look up the kids for cash children’s prison case shits fucked

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Joe_Fart t1_j2oc757 wrote

The author of this article Andy West wrote a very good book called The life inside where he is describing his experiences teaching philosophy in the prison. It is worth to check

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thejoshuabreed t1_j2oavha wrote

Direct response to “children should be seen and not heard.” I know a ton of people who got sent away to “Excelsior” which was the school for “the bad kids”, but when not being trained to be a drone and ridiculed for not understanding chemistry or basic math, they were the kindest people. Loyal to a fault. Genuinely creative and above all, hopeful.

But what else are kids supposed to fee when they don’t fit in? Angry is a word that fits, imo.

So, instead of telling them to shut up and comply, let’s realize kids are not made to be formed. They are under our care and we keep fucking them up because “it is what it is” as the article states.

I think his statement at the end is really poignant. Feed that anger at the system by doing something about it. And that starts at home. And in our communities at schools.

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Kaarsty t1_j2r7gp0 wrote

There’s some very smart people in history who have said that taking care of children should be our first priority. If we can make the first 10-20 years of life easier, happier, more informed, we’ll end up with better adults. We spend zilch on people though.

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Willing-Emu-8247 t1_j2s1ah9 wrote

Uhh, how else would you deal with 16/17 yo murderers? How big of a difference do you think there is between 17 and 18? Schools are absolutely NOT equipped for that. They are not children.

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HumbleFlea t1_j2s2o4d wrote

I love the implication that you cross some magical threshold into adulthood and suddenly you can overcome the causality of criminality through sheer force of causa sui willpower

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Mustelafan t1_j2sls4q wrote

>Children’s prisons are among some of the most violent, though I don’t want to focus on the gruesome details – it only bludgeons the reader into apathy.

"Please don't think about why some of these kids are in here in the first place, just continue to be outraged."

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dhurkzsantos t1_j35nye3 wrote

directing efforts, at situations, earlier than the children

extensive effort on helping parenthood of children

extensive effort of educating on what results to children

extensive efforts of educating society of philosophy and right action

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AffectionateVast5755 t1_j2o94fz wrote

Why is there a prison for children?

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Ramental t1_j2ozx6n wrote

Because 17 year old can murder you just like a 18+ year old.

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chopperbob88 t1_j2pdjg9 wrote

Because not all parents are neutering… sometimes kids turn violent and need incarceration to prevent harm to the community.

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override367 t1_j2rxmvs wrote

shit in the US we just throw 10 year olds in with adult murderers and rapists

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peproren t1_j2rzn9e wrote

I personally refer to schools as prisons as well

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TubularHells t1_j2sbjv5 wrote

That's exactly what they are. Loss of freedom, stress, boredom, humiliation, physical violence... schools can be just as brutal and traumatic as prisons. And what do they teach you? Conformity. Obedience. To be a good little cog in society's insane machine. Schools groom us for a life of oppression and wage slavery.

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