Wilddog73 t1_j2spzlf wrote
I disagree with the kind of pessimism that has radical activist sorts assuming that there can be no reasoned discussion/wholesome argument between sides, and so never try to communicate their ideas.
I counter, it's time for optimism to take the scene.
JovialJayou1 t1_j2u4cm2 wrote
Agreed. Seems like there’s been nothing but pessimism for a while now. The 24hr news cycle is fueled by pessimism.
Wilddog73 t1_j2u4y8k wrote
Mhm.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2sqpya wrote
We've had toxic optimism taking us for a ride our entire species existence. We've known global warming due to human activity was a thing since the early 1900s, and we still have 'optimists' trying to run around and say everything is fine! We're not overpopulated and technology will save us! As we're ass deep in the anthropocene extinction. I don't know of a current metric that merits optimism.
WallyMetropolis t1_j2sxjmr wrote
Nonsense. Humans have been convinced they are living in the end times at every point in history. Doom and gloom has always been the popular stance.
If people don't believe progress is possible, they won't work towards it.
Wilddog73 t1_j2szijb wrote
Yes. Blind faith can be dumb, but optimism and a more positive headspace does wonders.
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WallyMetropolis t1_j2tmnqg wrote
It's pretty simple. There have always been optimists, and cynicism has always been popular.
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WallyMetropolis t1_j2tpoz1 wrote
No, that would be a weird over-generalization. I'm just contesting the idea that history was defined by broad optimism, or that optimism has been a constantly, hugely popular position for people right up until the present moment. That's false.
And I'm also saying there's value in optimism.
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WallyMetropolis t1_j2tu5av wrote
You are reading my comment as saying that 100% of everyone thought it was the end times and also that 100% of all progress is made by optimists. That's not what I think and any person making any kind of attempt at a generous reading would never assume that's what I think.
I'm saying that the person claiming that all of human history was marked by prevalent, toxic optimism is incorrect. That's not the case. Historically, cynicism has always been extremely popular. I'm also claiming that optimists are generally more effective and bringing about progress.
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WallyMetropolis t1_j2wt95s wrote
But it's only a contradiction if it's saying that extremist version. Unless I claimed that everyone was a pessimist, and only optimists can make progress, then noting that progress has been made isn't a contradiction.
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tosy8 wrote
He does and he realizes how dumb that sounds so he rephrased it cryptically.
jason_square t1_j2v5w66 wrote
You know, it gets really annoying when people hide in optimism. Optimism ends up being only denial
WallyMetropolis t1_j2wu5pt wrote
It's not remotely denialism and it's not at all hiding. Activists are by their nature optimists because they believe change is possible.
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InsideRec t1_j2t1x2q wrote
That is some solid "Monkey Logic".
monkeylogic42 t1_j2t2v85 wrote
If a stupid, pink, hairless monkey can figure it out, you can too!
Wilddog73 t1_j2sr846 wrote
Then surely you can tell me some examples of how pessimism has done well by society or the world?
NOLA_Tachyon t1_j2stsal wrote
Pessimism might not be a great cheerleader but every margin of error, every hedge, every tolerance, every conservation effort has roots in pessimism. It’s not sexy but it works, and it’s just what we need to counter the morons who believe in the myths of infinite growth and ever greater fools.
Wilddog73 t1_j2sum1f wrote
Pessimism is like salt. Pepper is like optimism.
It's pretty clear when you've used too much salt.
It's a lot harder to use too much pepper. There's a healthy balance.
100-Resolutions t1_j2tdyai wrote
Sorry this comes off as someone who’s never stepped foot in a kitchen. You can most certainly over season with pepper. Especially if the person can’t handle spice, example: the fine people of Great Britain.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tep0r wrote
I said a healthy balance, I didn't say it was guaranteed to sit well with the lightweights.
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monkeylogic42 t1_j2ss423 wrote
Doesn't matter what headspace, pessimism is necessary for seeing things as they are. The unbridled optimism peddled by capitalists to continue plundering resources has already doomed the world. Optimists are useful tools against science and progress more than benefits to society.
Wilddog73 t1_j2ssgoe wrote
Doesn't answer my initial question. Give me an example that supports your claim that it's necessary, by showing that it's effective.
Socksandcandy t1_j2szafv wrote
Pessimistic logic helps free people from the yoke of religion.
Example: Thoughts and prayers and magical thinking
SkamGnal t1_j2th3bl wrote
Martin Luther, I’d argue. The article argues that pessimism is often caricatured, but in reality it represents the ability to face the negative things in life.
Luther held a very bleak view of the Catholic Church. He challenged common opinions and brought the Church’s intentions and behaviors to light.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tlg6t wrote
That doesn't sound like pessimism, rather than the fruits of skepticism/criticism.
SkamGnal t1_j2uv7k1 wrote
And that criticism is a result of viewing the world for what it is - bleak. Those that represented God - even the Pope himself - were taking advantage of the common man. The Church, in its stark irony, made it harder for people to go to Heaven. That’s a pessimistic, yet grounded, perspective. It’s not sugar coated.
The author of the article does not divorce optimism and pessimism. Nor do they marry pessimism with fatalism - quite the opposite. They describe hopeful pessimism, which faces the negativity of the world head on while acknowledging things might get worse. I think Martins Luthers actions fit that description.
Wilddog73 t1_j2uyowz wrote
Personally, I think that contradicts with my definition of pessimism. Is pessimism not negativity to the point of not caring to try? To the point that it holds you back from facing that negativity?
I think "realistic optimism" is a better term for what you describe.
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2toj6t wrote
You literally just call anything positive someone points out about pessimism skepticism, your not arguing in good faith my friend.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tpfo6 wrote
Why is it pessimism and not skepticism to you then?
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tqs3e wrote
Why would I have a discussion with someone I literally just told I don't believe is having a good faith discussion.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tro6x wrote
Leave it to a pessimist to make that assumption on so little.
Thank you for portraying my argument against encouraging pessimism for the rest of us.
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tttys wrote
When did I say I was a pessimist. Leave it to an optimist to just make shit up whole cloth and claim they are correct.
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tnu0r wrote
Did you read the article?
monkeylogic42 t1_j2sux8h wrote
Lol. I wasnt there for any major historical decisions where the pessimist in the room talked sense into the rest. I can point to numerous examples where optimism has failed us greatly though, we have great records on that. You demanding examples is just a demonstration that you have no argument really for your optimism, and instead would like to strawman something away from your poor philosophical stance. Especially your errant declaration that "it's time for more unbridled optimism!". Super shortsighted and childish.
Wilddog73 t1_j2svi8j wrote
Aren't you a textbook case of "unbridled/toxic optimism" when it comes to pessimism?
Blindly supporting it since you can't name a single historical instance when it did us any good?
monkeylogic42 t1_j2sx9za wrote
Nice, the strawman I predicted you would pull from your back pocket!
How about just admitting that optimism isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread and an acknowledgement that it's not the best way to go about dealing in the world? That's all you have to do, but nah, you look at where all the ambitious optimism has us and decide we need more! Lol....
Wilddog73 t1_j2syn8a wrote
Blind faith/"toxic optimism" is bad, but so is full-on pessimism.
Realistic optimism seems more like what we should push for, since we know that there's a level of optimism that does well by us before it gets to that point.
Since you think I'm strawmanning, then it's clear you believe I'm arguing in bad faith. I guess I should leave it at this then, unless you wanna try and explain how the heck I was strawmanning... I mean, would you buy a product on amazon with no or terrible reviews?
monkeylogic42 t1_j2t0tr3 wrote
I do not consult Amazon reviews at all, theyre not verifiable. Realistic optimism isn't a thing. It's just optimism. It's often used like faith, as belief that the best outcome will prevail without evidence. Demonstrate a reason for optimism and we can talk, but declaring now the time for optimism after optimism is what got us to this point is silly. Like I said in the beginning, general optimism is weaponizing you against your own self interest.
Wilddog73 t1_j2t5qvl wrote
>Demonstrate a reason for optimism and we can talk
Sure! When I've failed at something and then done some preparation to raise my chances at success, I feel optimistic that it'll work when I try again!
And it's a realistic optimism, tempered by the lessons of my failure! So it is a thing.
​
>I do not consult Amazon reviews at all, theyre not verifiable.
So you just don't consult any reviews on the internet? That's pretty pessimistic.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2tals7 wrote
>Sure! When I've failed at something and then done some preparation to raise my chances at success, I feel optimistic that it'll work when I try again!
We haven't even begun to try to change the system, and we have been told for a century that the world is going to choke to death if we keep doing what we're doing. The optimism of the world is just kicking the can down the road.
>So you just don't consult any reviews on the internet? That's pretty pessimistic.
Another demonstration of your bad faith argumentation. I said Amazon, cause reviews are bought and merchandise is fraudulent often. I don't buy anything of consequence from Amazon.
This is the best optimism has to offer? Deceit for the sake of feeling good for another short while until reality calls you back to the fact the world is dying?
Wilddog73 t1_j2tb25g wrote
You want bad faith argumentation, you didn't even really answer me.
Just as I said, full-on pessimism just leads to an excess of political activist/dismissive dunderhead types.
If you can't even tell the difference between real and fake reviews, you've got a lot of learning to do before you've earned the right to be pessimistic.
Goodbye.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2tbnww wrote
And lol that you think wasting time deciphering Amazon reviews makes you special.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tcetd wrote
This is so sad. No, I'm just experienced.
Get your head out of your ass and grow up, do some things with your life before you latch on to some weird ideology. You're just being a weird fanatic at this point.
Not meant to be an insult, just concerned advice.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2teq60 wrote
Lol. It's easier to con a man than to convince him he's been conned. Sounds like you've latched on to the weird ideology as you want to trust Amazon. It takes being a weird fanatic to bring change, keep being an experienced consumer tho. That's dope.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2tbi9u wrote
You asked a question that doesn't really have an answer. Like a believer saying well you don't know what caused the big bang so despite the evidence I believe the (insert specific God claim here) did it!
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tod1r wrote
Or maybe, hopeful pessimism? Really seems like you didn't read the article.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tpmqb wrote
If you've read it, then you could surely differentiate the article's hopeful pessimism from my "realistic optimism".
Well? What's the difference?
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tqnfp wrote
So you didn't read the article. Got it.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tqraz wrote
When did I say that?
painstream t1_j2t1yt1 wrote
> we still have 'optimists' trying to run around and say everything is fine!
I hesitate to assume it's optimists saying that, but rather self-interested financial elites that are distinctly invested in pushing pessimism to avoid necessary changes.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2t2npi wrote
It's optimists hijacked by their capitalist masters, yes. It's still the "wanting to believe without or against evidence" part that leaves optimists open for being taken advantage of. Like saying religion isn't bad, just extremists. The extremists wouldn't exist without the religion. Maybe they'd find something else to take to it's fullest extent, but it wouldn't be violent, morally questionable fairy tales.
DeFiDegen- t1_j2x9oqi wrote
There’s really not a reason to be pessimistic about anything you posted. Realistically we both live in the best time to be alive, with basically all of our needs taken care of.
You could read the news all day and decide we are doomed to death via any of the dozens of doomsday scenarios they spin, but is any of that actually valuable in your life?
I also always find it puzzling what the pessimists are complaining about. Right now they all complain about the climate and things like religion and capitalism. These things are all unlikely to cause an extinction event, humans are resilient creatures.
What is, in my opinion, a much more oppressive and pessimistic issue, is the erosion of privacy and the lust for digital control. We are at a point as a species where people in control can build systems to lock us down as a species. Evil people with inhuman ambitions are already working towards it but nobody seems to care. Great thinkers and writers tried to warn us 100 years ago but people somehow don’t bother to listen. If these systems where locked in place, you’d be wishing for a climate catastrophe.
SkamGnal t1_j2tftft wrote
Optimists have ground to stand on, considering this is most peaceful, progressive time in human history.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2tmety wrote
With some of the greatest wealth disparity the world has ever seen, with more people enslaved than ever and we're a minute and a half from doomsday, sounds like you make a compelling argument there.
SkamGnal t1_j2youfs wrote
The lower classes are better off than today than they were in the past, despite the disparity. So yeah the world is still better off. Not to mention horrible diseases we have found treatment for : malaria, polio, Black Death. Maybe you want to talk to a mother? Ask them if they’d rather have a child now or 100 years ago.
Yeah we can compare absolute numbers if you want, but when the global population is 10 times the size it was 150 years ago, it doesn’t make sense. Especially considering slavery has become a regional issue instead of a global one. Roll the dice today and you’re way better off.
Besides every generation from every era in human history thought the world was going to end lol
Your perspective is a result of the fatalist 24 hour news cycle. I saw the slavery headline too..
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Old_Personality3136 t1_j2w3d6o wrote
Only if you use the narrowest definition of peace imaginable.
[deleted] t1_j2stm71 wrote
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Old_Personality3136 t1_j2w37rz wrote
It isn't the activists saying that. It's the decades of evidence that no rational discourse can be had. Optimists severely lack evidence to support their arguments, and you all simply refuse to acknowledge that.
unassumingdink t1_j2tph2o wrote
Pretty sure they do communicate their ideas. The optimists simply don't listen because it threatens their optimism.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tq9nj wrote
I'm optimistic enough to try and communicate with a lot of pessimistic/political fellows, yet they're often too pessimistic to see communicating back as anything but a waste of time.
They assume failure without even really trying. We've had too much pessimism lately imo.
unassumingdink t1_j2ttofm wrote
It's a safe assumption to make when we can't even progress to the "trying" part because that might mess with some rich guy's bank account. Politicians are owned by the same rich guys. For decades, we've been trying to convince optimists that this bribery is an incomprehensibly huge issue that infects every other issue like a cancer, and that nothing truly positive can happen under those conditions. But the optimists just went ahead and assumed that the bribed politicians (at least the ones in their party) would fight for them anyway, despite the bribes.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tzvwe wrote
Not on the small scale. I would've listened.
But apparently I just wasn't worth the effort. Better to talk down to me and act like they've won the argument without even trying.
unassumingdink t1_j2u0oyr wrote
Small scale efforts are like trying to bail out a sinking ocean liner with a thimble. Worse, they make people complacent and satisfied that they've solved the problem when 99.9999% of the problem remains.
Wilddog73 t1_j2u16y9 wrote
Small scale efforts are showing the kind of compassion and good will you claim to have for world/societal issues to the common man around you.
It's integrity.
unassumingdink t1_j2u2th2 wrote
So it's basically a symbolic gesture, then. We've already been doing those for the last 50 years or so. They're not working. We recycled all our plastic bottles to help the environment, then we found out that we were being lied to the whole time, and 98% of them were ending up in landfills! You'd think that would disturb even the most fervent optimist, but nope. They just kept right on trucking, same strategies, same viewpoints, steady on into the void.
Wilddog73 t1_j2u4mvx wrote
I'm not talking about that right now, I'm talking about how they treat their fellow man when they ask what's going on.
The pessimism that leads them to brush off their curiosity and escalate conflict.
unassumingdink t1_j2u88i5 wrote
The pessimism is what comes after decades of optimism didn't work. And from decades of being on the receiving end of bad faith arguments engineered by oil industry propagandists, tested on focus groups for maximum impact, and disseminated among purportedly well-meaning optimists. Yeah, some people are gonna get snippy with you after dealing with that. And anyway, there comes a point when optimism is indistinguishable from delusion. The eternally optimistic make it a point of pride not to be convinced of anything that threatens their optimism, and thus their worldview. Convincing people like that feels about as achievable as trying to talk a devout religious person out of their religion.
Wilddog73 t1_j2uehb2 wrote
Blind faith/optimism as you describe is bad, but full-on pessimism is if anything, blowing up in their faces at the moment.
It isn't proving to be anymore of a viable solution as "eternal optimism" is.
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