Wilddog73 t1_j2sr846 wrote
Reply to comment by monkeylogic42 in Look on the dark side | We must keep the flame of pessimism burning: it is a virtue for our deeply troubled times, when crude optimism is a vice by ADefiniteDescription
Then surely you can tell me some examples of how pessimism has done well by society or the world?
NOLA_Tachyon t1_j2stsal wrote
Pessimism might not be a great cheerleader but every margin of error, every hedge, every tolerance, every conservation effort has roots in pessimism. It’s not sexy but it works, and it’s just what we need to counter the morons who believe in the myths of infinite growth and ever greater fools.
Wilddog73 t1_j2sum1f wrote
Pessimism is like salt. Pepper is like optimism.
It's pretty clear when you've used too much salt.
It's a lot harder to use too much pepper. There's a healthy balance.
100-Resolutions t1_j2tdyai wrote
Sorry this comes off as someone who’s never stepped foot in a kitchen. You can most certainly over season with pepper. Especially if the person can’t handle spice, example: the fine people of Great Britain.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tep0r wrote
I said a healthy balance, I didn't say it was guaranteed to sit well with the lightweights.
[deleted] t1_j2tjr4r wrote
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monkeylogic42 t1_j2ss423 wrote
Doesn't matter what headspace, pessimism is necessary for seeing things as they are. The unbridled optimism peddled by capitalists to continue plundering resources has already doomed the world. Optimists are useful tools against science and progress more than benefits to society.
Wilddog73 t1_j2ssgoe wrote
Doesn't answer my initial question. Give me an example that supports your claim that it's necessary, by showing that it's effective.
Socksandcandy t1_j2szafv wrote
Pessimistic logic helps free people from the yoke of religion.
Example: Thoughts and prayers and magical thinking
SkamGnal t1_j2th3bl wrote
Martin Luther, I’d argue. The article argues that pessimism is often caricatured, but in reality it represents the ability to face the negative things in life.
Luther held a very bleak view of the Catholic Church. He challenged common opinions and brought the Church’s intentions and behaviors to light.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tlg6t wrote
That doesn't sound like pessimism, rather than the fruits of skepticism/criticism.
SkamGnal t1_j2uv7k1 wrote
And that criticism is a result of viewing the world for what it is - bleak. Those that represented God - even the Pope himself - were taking advantage of the common man. The Church, in its stark irony, made it harder for people to go to Heaven. That’s a pessimistic, yet grounded, perspective. It’s not sugar coated.
The author of the article does not divorce optimism and pessimism. Nor do they marry pessimism with fatalism - quite the opposite. They describe hopeful pessimism, which faces the negativity of the world head on while acknowledging things might get worse. I think Martins Luthers actions fit that description.
Wilddog73 t1_j2uyowz wrote
Personally, I think that contradicts with my definition of pessimism. Is pessimism not negativity to the point of not caring to try? To the point that it holds you back from facing that negativity?
I think "realistic optimism" is a better term for what you describe.
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2toj6t wrote
You literally just call anything positive someone points out about pessimism skepticism, your not arguing in good faith my friend.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tpfo6 wrote
Why is it pessimism and not skepticism to you then?
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tqs3e wrote
Why would I have a discussion with someone I literally just told I don't believe is having a good faith discussion.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tro6x wrote
Leave it to a pessimist to make that assumption on so little.
Thank you for portraying my argument against encouraging pessimism for the rest of us.
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tttys wrote
When did I say I was a pessimist. Leave it to an optimist to just make shit up whole cloth and claim they are correct.
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tnu0r wrote
Did you read the article?
monkeylogic42 t1_j2sux8h wrote
Lol. I wasnt there for any major historical decisions where the pessimist in the room talked sense into the rest. I can point to numerous examples where optimism has failed us greatly though, we have great records on that. You demanding examples is just a demonstration that you have no argument really for your optimism, and instead would like to strawman something away from your poor philosophical stance. Especially your errant declaration that "it's time for more unbridled optimism!". Super shortsighted and childish.
Wilddog73 t1_j2svi8j wrote
Aren't you a textbook case of "unbridled/toxic optimism" when it comes to pessimism?
Blindly supporting it since you can't name a single historical instance when it did us any good?
monkeylogic42 t1_j2sx9za wrote
Nice, the strawman I predicted you would pull from your back pocket!
How about just admitting that optimism isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread and an acknowledgement that it's not the best way to go about dealing in the world? That's all you have to do, but nah, you look at where all the ambitious optimism has us and decide we need more! Lol....
Wilddog73 t1_j2syn8a wrote
Blind faith/"toxic optimism" is bad, but so is full-on pessimism.
Realistic optimism seems more like what we should push for, since we know that there's a level of optimism that does well by us before it gets to that point.
Since you think I'm strawmanning, then it's clear you believe I'm arguing in bad faith. I guess I should leave it at this then, unless you wanna try and explain how the heck I was strawmanning... I mean, would you buy a product on amazon with no or terrible reviews?
monkeylogic42 t1_j2t0tr3 wrote
I do not consult Amazon reviews at all, theyre not verifiable. Realistic optimism isn't a thing. It's just optimism. It's often used like faith, as belief that the best outcome will prevail without evidence. Demonstrate a reason for optimism and we can talk, but declaring now the time for optimism after optimism is what got us to this point is silly. Like I said in the beginning, general optimism is weaponizing you against your own self interest.
Wilddog73 t1_j2t5qvl wrote
>Demonstrate a reason for optimism and we can talk
Sure! When I've failed at something and then done some preparation to raise my chances at success, I feel optimistic that it'll work when I try again!
And it's a realistic optimism, tempered by the lessons of my failure! So it is a thing.
​
>I do not consult Amazon reviews at all, theyre not verifiable.
So you just don't consult any reviews on the internet? That's pretty pessimistic.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2tals7 wrote
>Sure! When I've failed at something and then done some preparation to raise my chances at success, I feel optimistic that it'll work when I try again!
We haven't even begun to try to change the system, and we have been told for a century that the world is going to choke to death if we keep doing what we're doing. The optimism of the world is just kicking the can down the road.
>So you just don't consult any reviews on the internet? That's pretty pessimistic.
Another demonstration of your bad faith argumentation. I said Amazon, cause reviews are bought and merchandise is fraudulent often. I don't buy anything of consequence from Amazon.
This is the best optimism has to offer? Deceit for the sake of feeling good for another short while until reality calls you back to the fact the world is dying?
Wilddog73 t1_j2tb25g wrote
You want bad faith argumentation, you didn't even really answer me.
Just as I said, full-on pessimism just leads to an excess of political activist/dismissive dunderhead types.
If you can't even tell the difference between real and fake reviews, you've got a lot of learning to do before you've earned the right to be pessimistic.
Goodbye.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2tbnww wrote
And lol that you think wasting time deciphering Amazon reviews makes you special.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tcetd wrote
This is so sad. No, I'm just experienced.
Get your head out of your ass and grow up, do some things with your life before you latch on to some weird ideology. You're just being a weird fanatic at this point.
Not meant to be an insult, just concerned advice.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2teq60 wrote
Lol. It's easier to con a man than to convince him he's been conned. Sounds like you've latched on to the weird ideology as you want to trust Amazon. It takes being a weird fanatic to bring change, keep being an experienced consumer tho. That's dope.
monkeylogic42 t1_j2tbi9u wrote
You asked a question that doesn't really have an answer. Like a believer saying well you don't know what caused the big bang so despite the evidence I believe the (insert specific God claim here) did it!
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tod1r wrote
Or maybe, hopeful pessimism? Really seems like you didn't read the article.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tpmqb wrote
If you've read it, then you could surely differentiate the article's hopeful pessimism from my "realistic optimism".
Well? What's the difference?
Trumpfreeaccount t1_j2tqnfp wrote
So you didn't read the article. Got it.
Wilddog73 t1_j2tqraz wrote
When did I say that?
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