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monkeylogic42 t1_j2t4ebn wrote

Reply to comment by Rethious in Look on the dark side | We must keep the flame of pessimism burning: it is a virtue for our deeply troubled times, when crude optimism is a vice by ADefiniteDescription

Until someone shows a metric that is grounds for optimism, we've drained that well. No one has done shit with the hopeful messages of working for a brighter tomorrow! that have been pushed for decades. It's just hijacked to sell you more shit. We're not gonna even slow global warming and you think optimism still has merit or that people will change if you talk nicer to them? There are 8 billion people now, and to have to babystep any percentage of that to motivate them positively is an impossible task. We saw exactly how the world is going to react to collective action with COVID. There's not a single drop of hope for anything changing even if it's going to only mildly inconvenience the average person. Always look on the bright side, but it's hard to have a bright side with an ever dimming bulb.

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gahblahblah t1_j2tn8w3 wrote

Your comment is a good example of lack of optimism leading to complete blinding fatalism.

>No one has done shit

You casually dismiss every good thing as being non-existent. I would need only a single example to prove you wrong - like the trend of investment in renewable energy.

>to motivate them positively is an impossible task

Pure fatalism. When you claim people are so indecent as to not tolerate minor inconvenience, I suppose I wonder how you are unable to perceive whole societies where they wear masks routinely.

>There's not a single drop of hope for anything changing even if it's going to only mildly inconvenience the average person.

Pure fatalism to its very core.

Technologies are advancing rapidly. AI will automate many jobs. The world cannot not change. You perspective makes you blind to the bulk of reality.

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Old_Personality3136 t1_j2w2xu0 wrote

His points have vastly more evidence behind them than yours. Positive, negative, or otherwise, the argument with the most evidence is usually the best one.

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gahblahblah t1_j2w6ihf wrote

My points? My points were mostly only that his points were false. He made definitive statements that can be proven false by providing a single counter example to them, although there are many.

Do you too believe there isn't 'a single drop of hope' and that 'no one is doing anything' and that it is 'impossible to motivate people if they will even be slightly inconvenienced'? Are you sure these are valid statements that I can't easily prove false?

Final question - are you yourself the kind of person who wouldn't bother to act in the world's best interest if it slightly inconvenienced you?

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2to0fr wrote

Lol, you assume this change is going to be so much betterment that it fixes the permanent damage we've done? Ok... And you call me irrational.

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gahblahblah t1_j2ttozl wrote

No, I dont assume. But, unlike you, I am not blind to possibilities, and the positive things that have happened and are happening.

>the permanent damage

You assume. Here is one example, but there are many.

>And you call me irrational

No, I didn't. I explained that your fatalism makes you unable to see the countless counter examples that definitively prove your statements false. In order to continue to not see reality, you are now required to invent a way to represent me as someone to ignore entirely - as is the nature of continued fatalism.

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paanvaannd t1_j2u8yj5 wrote

Well-said!

> fatalism makes you unable to see the countless counter examples that definitively prove your statements false

Some of my loved ones have given in to such thinking as well. The most frustrating thing about it is that they rant about a lot of issues but don’t do anything about them: no advocacy, no protesting, no changing their own actions—nothing! When confronted with examples contrary to their woes, they fall back upon cynicism of the solutions or outright dismissal of the contrary evidence.

I’m not going to assume that all fatalists are similar, but from what I’ve seen in my friends/family and others online, I haven’t seen any of them work towards ending the problems they point out, mainly just lashing out at those who don’t think similarly. It seems like an extremely tiring way of existing.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2ujl2n wrote

What are the countless counter examples to the current extinction event we are the direct cause of? You know we are linked to that chain and biodiversity loss on top of irreversibly polluting the world with plastics and forever chemicals? What is the example I'm missing that counters those factual things??

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gahblahblah t1_j2uu6v8 wrote

My reference to counter examples is to your claims that:

  1. 'no one is doing anything' to which I only need to offer a single counter example to prove false, which I have already done in referencing the growth in solar planel investment and renweable energy dependence. But I can provide many examples - such as drone based forrest planting, where thousands of seedlings can be planted efficiently. Or the organisation Ocean Cleanup that is developing and using plastic trapping technology.

  2. your claim that people will not tolerate minor inconvenience- which I have already proved false by pointing out that there are whole cultures wearing face masks. But for which there are many examples- such as the proliferation of constructing wheelchair accessible ramps to buildings, the organisations that survive off donations, and the organisations that survive off people volunteering their time and energy - being examples of inclusivity, generosity and patience.

>You know we are linked to that chain and biodiversity loss

Yes, I know.

>irreversibly polluting the world

Your strong claim here is suspect, given that I have proved false many of your other claims and that you clearly exhibit fatalism. The burden of proof is upon you to show how you know it is literally impossible to succeed - not for me to show what the solutions are.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2v5n1i wrote

  1. What is being done faster than the rate of destruction? You have to stop the destruction first and we know this isn't happening. We can't even talk people into having less kids.

  2. Lol that some cultures can do things and others refuse. I think the reason is bare as to why global cooperation isn't going to happen just in your own point alone.

>Your strong claim here is suspect, given that I have proved false many of your other claims

Go do some basic Google research on forever chemicals and get back to me. I really think you just suffer from not knowing enough about how bad of a spot we are in.

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gahblahblah t1_j2vsact wrote

>1. What is being done faster than the rate of destruction?

This is just shifting the goal posts - as I knew you would. Before you claimed 'nothing is being done' but now you want me to prove that the rate at which things are being done is 'fast enough'. No. I already showed you were wrong. But in order to not change your fatalism in any way, and to never learn, all you need to do in these moments is to keep trying to pretend you were claiming something else and shift the goal post, shift the burden of proof, and never acknowledge that your hyper exaggerations are false. Never.

>2. Lol that some cultures can do things and others refuse.

But that is exactly enough to prove your initial claim was wrong - that it is 'impossible to motivate people to do the right thing if it slightly inconveniences them'. You are proven wrong. You laugh, because of course when this moment happens, you just attempt to shift the goal post again, or invent other new falsehoods and exaggerations. Anything to distract from acknowledging you were wrong.

I asked you to prove why progress is impossible, as the burden of proof is upon you. Your reply was 'look up forever chemicals'. Your answer is insufficient, but I won't expect a better response.

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NoTagBacks t1_j2xtcua wrote

Can I just say that your use of good philosophy here is just... chef's kiss. Masterful use of epistemology. You love to see it.

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oramirite t1_j2vhvap wrote

These were the actions of a select few people. The human race at large can absolutely outpace these efforts, that's not even up for debate. It's a cultural problem and as soon as we solve that, everything will improve. However, you seem to preclude this as being impossible, which is illogical given the numbers.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2vi4nn wrote

Let's talk numbers! How bout the numbers that suggest 70% of all wildlife has been eliminated since 1970. We definitely got this!! Just believe!!!

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oramirite t1_j2vm647 wrote

You seem to be operating under the guise of being more realistic, but you are in fact centralized in offering no-solution arguments. Even if there were no solution, it's illogical not to try one because we can't predict the future, and not trying is literally the only way to ENSURE failure. Trying is not the road to failure. Cynicism is a complete dive into voluntary failure.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2vnop2 wrote

No, by all means come up with a solution... But recognize the solution isn't worth dick when we refuse to cease the behavior causing the problem. I'm not presenting solutions because I don't have any. Just stop making shit worse and eat the billionaires. That's about as good as we can do at this point. Stuff labeled forever chemicals are because they're here forever in this snow globe we inhabit. It's just a really big globe, so humanity has a hard time grasping how bad things really are, none the less effectively process more than one crisis at a time. The best I can do is not have kids and win the lottery to have enough money to even have my voice heard. Our optimistic 'make a difference' campaigns haven't made a dent yet. These do: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7856827/

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oramirite t1_j2vup1n wrote

Any billionaire and millionaire stopping these things would be offset by the efforts of the rest of us. They can inflict more damage. It's pretty simple, pretty obvious, and blaming the general public when a change in their behavior wouldn't matter compared to a change in behavior from a gigantic entity is absurd.

Your example is like ...... missing the point by a million miles.

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Emotional_Penalty t1_j2uqc4a wrote

In addition, its very clear that the economy will continue going to shit, causing further social distress and the war in Ukraine will only continue to escalate, potentially threatening the world with a global conflict using weapons of mass destruction. People have practically zero advocacy in these issues.

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oramirite t1_j2vhznr wrote

YOU have zero advocacy on these issues, and you're projecting it. I can't go a single day without seeing someone take concrete action related to that conflict. The reality that a world leader is the other side of that conflict, and that it's taking a little bit of time, doesn't mean progress is eternally impossible.

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Rethious t1_j2t9pmg wrote

This attitude is why pessimism leads nowhere but the grave. Every day, tens of millions of people are working to apply existing solutions to mitigate climate change or to develop new ones. You’re even hyperfocusing on certain elements of society to paint covid as a loss, and not as the tremendous achievement of medical science it was to develop safe, effective, and mass produceable vaccines with ground breaking technology.

To say that there is no hope is a self-fulfilling prophecy and does not match the evidence we have.

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ShalmaneserIII t1_j2ucv60 wrote

> This attitude is why pessimism leads nowhere but the grave.

I have some bad news about where optimism leads, too.

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Rethious t1_j2uglbj wrote

You get to enjoy a more circuitous and fruitful route with optimism.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2v6mlh wrote

No, that's just living in denial. The world is quite literally dying in front of us. We've lost 70% of all wildlife since 1970. There's where your fruitful optimism has gotten us.

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Rethious t1_j2vcir0 wrote

It is a fact that wildlife populations have declined. This is a problem to reckoned with, I’d argue more successfully with an optimistic attitude than a pessimistic one.

Evidence shows that people are more greedy than fearful. To convince people to combat climate change, it is more useful to appeal to what they have to gain than what they have to lose.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2vepym wrote

So, being more greedy then fearful, the billionaire class isn't going to change the system. There isn't any immediate gratification to be had in preservation. Everyone just wants to eat that tuna, bycatch be damned.

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Rethious t1_j2vfj7r wrote

There doesn’t need to be immediate gratification. There are many ways for climate mitigation solutions to satisfy greed. You get much further selling people a solar-punk future than you do by trying to scare them. Doomsday predictions only convince people its futile to make an effort.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2tb82h wrote

Tens of millions in the face of billions and a century of pollution. Are you aware of us being the cause of the 6th mass extinction on earth currently?

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Rethious t1_j2tcuhc wrote

Of course. But there’s no circumstance that could make striving to make tomorrow better than today not worthwhile. Regardless of what’s ahead, throwing up our hands benefits no one.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2tef23 wrote

I didn't say throw up your hands, I just said the world isn't going to get it's shit together to avoid the disastrous future that optimists tried to steer us from gently for the last 75 years. Everyone would need to cut most of their fossil fuel usage and plastics about 40 years ago. Since then it's been an exceleration with capitalists on the side dumping money in to 'optimism' for the masses so they can keep profiting. It's just like anytime someone tries to remind everyone we don't have free energy and carbon capture isn't going to save us in time, they get shouted down for being a buzzkill. Like the the global warming episode of always sunny- I don't want just one shot, I want seven! I don't wanna stop! I don't wanna slow down! The world is programmed by consumption and there are too many people. Look up the difference between a million seconds and a billion.

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Rethious t1_j2ti12g wrote

Carbon capture and free energy won’t save us, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be invested in. It’s a fine line in that they’re both essential and deserve heavy investment, but shouldn’t be used as an excuse to neglect conservation efforts.

Optimism doesn’t mean being in denial about the challenges we face.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2tkv7t wrote

Where are the conservation efforts? There are so little it may as well be 0. As far as what optimism means, it kind of is denial:

op·ti·mism /ˈäptəˌmiz(ə)m/ noun 1. hopefulness and confidence about the future or the successful outcome of something.

PHILOSOPHY the doctrine, especially as set forth by Leibniz, that this world is the best of all possible worlds.

If we stopped all unnecessary consumption today and all efforts went to remediation of the damage already done, it still won't be enough to fix the world. We have finite resources and there isn't a global will to do anything differently. We've blown past every warning light and marker with thoughts and prayers.

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Rethious t1_j2tmlfc wrote

>There mat be so little it may well be 0.

I’m sorry, but that’s a fundamentally unserious view.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2tngks wrote

How much of the rainforest is destroyed per day? Wetlands? How many wells of oil still spewing how much in to the environment? How many forever chemicals spills have been remedied? The ramifications of our actions have only begun, and the actions haven't stopped. None the less the underdeveloped areas that don't even have a clue or care to tally pollution accurately.

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goes231even t1_j2uwec0 wrote

What is unserious is believing the fairytale that says any of our meager efforts toward conservation are making even the slightest dent in the problem as the rate of the destruction that got us here in the first place is not only not slowing down but is actually increasing.

Any efforts toward saving the environment are essentially a capitalistic dog and pony show at this point and has even reached the mainstream news outlets.

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Rethious t1_j2vad9c wrote

This is the exact type of pessimistic fatalism that is antithetical to actually accomplishing anything.

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yassenof t1_j2v2628 wrote

You're using some overly strong hyperbole here, and it undermines your point.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2v5gue wrote

Where, pray tell, is the hyperbole? Are you sure you're not just the one with their head in the sand??

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yassenof t1_j2wouwq wrote

The numbers you used for your years. And yes I'm sure.

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tree-molester t1_j2tayk3 wrote

Your comment is the first of any on this discussion that even scratches the surface of the ‘best’ attitude that is needed to move forward on the crises of climate change, political neo-fascism, the cult like thinking that leads to religious bigotry and the influence it has on morality, etc. I think we’re about at the stage of ‘what is needed is a 2x4 to the back of the head’ of our current capitalist/consumer society. The hedonistic me-me-me path we have followed for to long has brought us to a time in which we must decide if, as a species, we intend to go on. We have the resources and knowledge to turn things around, but we also can use these tools to continue on the path of crashing and burning as we have for far to long the past century or so.

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Rychek_Four t1_j2tfy8g wrote

Bro of all the times to post this, maybe not while we are curing a new type cancer almost weekly.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2tlzze wrote

How fast are those going to make it to production? How cost prohibitive is it going to be? Is it going to cure the cancers caused by the ever increasing plastic/heavy metal/pfos content in our food chain? Like, yay, I hope there continues to be advances medically, as it's our only hope to ride out the hellscape, but our national lifespan continues to plummet downwards.

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Rychek_Four t1_j2tn9ug wrote

It's easy and low effort to just list problems. Anyone can do that. It's different to talk about things in the context of where they have been and where they are going. Maybe if you pick a specific issue and dig down you will see what I mean.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2toakx wrote

Even easier to lie to yourself and assume things are going to just work out. I just asked you to clarify your specific issue you brought up, but check my comment history in the thread for more specifics and we can go from there if you wanna abandon your cancer cure argument.

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Rychek_Four t1_j2u1e6h wrote

Clarify != Gish gallop the entire supply chain. It’s a dishonest approach to problem solving.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2ukazx wrote

Lol that you think it's a gishgallop when those are the direct challenges to your sunshine and rainbows cancer cure happy time.

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Rychek_Four t1_j2unkq8 wrote

Gish gallop is a criticism of your conversation technique, not your pessimism point.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2uppg0 wrote

I know that's what you think it looks like, but no, all of those things are happening right now, simultaneously, while people sit here whining about being more optimistic. Our optimism fuels the fire without even thinking about it, but anyone saying stop or slow down, look at the results, gets labeled a pessimist. The idea that you change people's minds by giving them hope for a better future doesn't work. It would have already if that were the case. It's not. Optimism is profitable and easy to feed the masses.

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Old_Personality3136 t1_j2w34g9 wrote

Once again, he has provided real world evidence and examples to support his argument. You have not. You seem to be assuming that people are just going to go along with your blind optimism because the default in your mind is to just accept toxic positivity. Nope.

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Rychek_Four t1_j2wl7wa wrote

I’m suggesting that we cannot have civil discourse where we solve every issue of a complex problem on an Internet forum. We need to pick one topic, if he wants to drill down, and discuss it. Also he didn’t provide shit for evidence (neither did I). That wasn’t an issue in our discourse.

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