Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

VersaceEauFraiche t1_j5tft9u wrote

Labelling (or correctly identifying, words which you may prefer) these identities as constructs does not negate them. Language, mathematics, computers, the internet are constructs. These constructs are useful. I do not think that your real contention with my identities is that they are constructions.

These identities as constructs still retain power, they still retain use. They contribute to our collective intersubjectivity. Also, there is the issue which proceeds which, the referent or the reference? My position still stands within your own framework, so I don't find it necessary to belabor this point.

Perhaps you point out these identities are constructs in effort to get me to vacate my positions. Perhaps I am willing to do so. The question is, is it possible/are you willing to persuade each person you happen upon, these people who fills our lives and contributes to our collective intersubjectivity, that each and every one of their identities is constructed, is a dissimulation of reality, is a falsity? It would be an exhausting endeavor. I would be unable to do it out of lack of energy, nor do I think I have the animating moral forcefulness to try to convince these people that the way they view themselves (and subsequently how they treat others accordingly) is wrong. Besides, what is Right and what is Wrong? I think most people on this subreddit (and probably reddit in general) don't actually believe in concrete, objective morality. All things should be understood within this context.

1

kgbking t1_j5vu3jl wrote

>Labelling (or correctly identifying, words which you may prefer) these identities as constructs does not negate them

It does and does not negate them. Any definition of these identities put forward can be negated and shown to be inadequate.

>These identities as constructs still retain power, they still retain use. They contribute to our collective intersubjectivity.

I fully agree

>is a falsity?

For clarity, I do not think identities are a falsity. I believe that identities do exist. I also believe that God exists. However, I believe that identities and God exist as social constructs; they are social products of the collectivity. I also think identities are beneficial in many ways. As you say and recognize, identities contributes to our collective intersubjectivity by allowing us to understand the other as part of a collective "We" and this is important.

One of my issues with identities is that they are often taken for being fixed objectivities, or in other words, they become for many people reifications. This happens when people make claims such as: "I am what I am". They completely neglect how they are in a process of becoming, that their identity is not fixed but fluid / changing, that their identity exists through opposition to a contrary identity, and that all of this is the result of a historical process.

>I do not think that your real contention with my identities is that they are constructions.

From your last posting, I believe that people are criticizing your usage of identity because you are using it to justify exclusionary practices and unequal treatment. I do not believe that abstract identity categorizations such as "man / women", "American / Mexican" justifies such forms of unequal treatment.

On the contrary, I believe that we need to enlarge our collectivities and attempt to include more and more within a collective "We". All of our particular identities (national, gender, etc. ) exist against the background of this collective 'We', but many people overwhelmingly fail to recognize this background because they are entrenched in their particular identity. The more we de-emphasize the particular, the better we can connect to the universal. There is a pressing need to grow our collective intersubjectivity and encompass more people within our intersubjective relations. Entrenching oneself in one's particular identity is a barrier to this. It sets up an "us vs them" dynamic which is grounded in relations of force.

1

VersaceEauFraiche t1_j5ygxpa wrote

I appreciate your response.

I suppose that my main contention is the one that can be found amongst post-modernists and traditionalists alike, that Capitalism (Capital, TechnoCapital, etc.) is a corrosive force that destroys barriers, particularity, specificity. It deterritorializes and detemporalizes the human experience. I do not think these are good things, and should be combatted when possible.

I understand the impulse and reasoning as to why someone would want to cultivate a larger "We", to be more inclusive with our philosophical and political programs. I also agree that one shouldn't limit themselves to what they are (race, sex, religion) and should put effort into what they can be in regards to art, athletics, academics, etc.

However, this request can be a bit disconcerting. I am told to relinquish my particularities for the universal, this particular person's particular universal. I don't think there is a Universal that has been stripped of metaphysics, so these Universals will carry with it always the unexamined premises (or bias, or baggage, which ever word you prefer). We will be adopting someone's Universal, whether it is everyone speaking English as a second language, neoliberal American global military hegemony, or Technocapital reaching back in time to assemble itself. To, for what Universal should I relinquish my ethnicity, my language, my God?

I believe that the more particular and the more specific a phenomenon is (ethnic customs, religious practice, etc.) the more meaning and weight it carries with each person of that way of life. And since I believe this, it behooves me to search out and to create more particularity, more specificity in our world. It creates meaning, it creates a multiplicity of meanings. This impulse creates diversity in the fight in contrast to the homogenizing effects of Capitalism.

1

kgbking t1_j67p38h wrote

Hey, so a few things.

>my main contention is the one that can be found amongst post-modernists and traditionalists alike, that Capitalism (Capital, TechnoCapital, etc.) is a corrosive force that destroys barriers, particularity, specificity.

I think this is completely incorrect on many levels. First, barriers, limits, particularity, specificity will always exist. The question is not whether or not they exist, but rather: in what form?

Do you really think that borders and particularity are being wiped out? Do we not live in an age of rampant perspectivism, identity politics, reviving nationalism ("my country first!"), etc.? Are national borders not being strengthen? Is there not growing intolerance of immigrants and refugees? Are more and more countries not building walls? I believe the paradox of globalization is: the freer the movement of capital, the more restrictions on the movement of labor (or, at least labor from the global South countries).

>post-modernists
>
>It deterritorializes and detemporalizes the human experience. I do not think these are good things, and should be combatted when possible.

I find it funny that capitalism (in the form of neoliberalism) has actually strengthened and flourished in the post-modern era. I think that the post-modern emphasize on particularity actually strengthens, not harms, capitalism. Each asserting their particularity against everyone else creates division, isolation, impotence, etc. We end up divided rather than united. Capitalism thrives on this. We are fundamentally forgetting Marx: "workers of the world unite!"

When we see the world through particularity, we become alienated from workers in other countries, men become alienated from women, straight individuals from the LGBTQ community, etc. Each pursues their own self-interest in opposition to the others. We become divided and alienated and cannot engage in collective action. Capitalism thrives on such conditions.

>I am told to relinquish my particularities for the universal

I never said this. I said to "de-emphasize" particularity. I do not believe it is possible nor healthy to relinquish all particularity. We are always particular; however, we can have different relationships to the moment of difference. For example, I can be a Canadian while still existing in unity and recognizing identity with those from other countries. Or, I can be a Canadian who is threatened by and opposed to those from other countries. In the former, I would recognize particularity and universality, while in the latter, I would be so entrenched in my particularity that I neglect the dimension of universality. Consequently, the particularity of the other becomes a threat to my own particularity.

>I don't think there is a Universal that has been stripped of metaphysics, so these Universals will carry with it always the unexamined premises (or bias, or baggage, which ever word you prefer).

I disagree with this. There are many different conceptualizations of universality. Many theorists now theorize universality as "lack". That is, universality expresses itself through absence, exclusion, or lack. For example, all the various nations exist against the background of the universal system of nation states. However, there are also refugees. Refugees are an expression of those who are excluded from the universal.

I think the theory goes something like this: universality only exists through the particulars and particulars only exist against the background of universality. Particularity and universality exist in a dialectical relation, so to say. Therefore, to recognize the universal involves recognizing which particulars are excluded from participation within the universal.

In this conceptualization, universality is nothing that can be imposed, enforced upon people, nor expanded through imperialism. Rather, Nazism and neoliberal capitalism are forms of particularity that are forcefully imposed upon others and falsely presented as 'universals'

I recommend reading chapter two of this book:

http://cup.columbia.edu/book/universality-and-identity-politics/9780231197700

McGowan, a Marxist and Hegelian, explains it way better than myself. However, while I do find the theorization of 'universality' as merely an absence, I am not sure if I fully agree. I have not developed my thoughts on the subject enough to take a strong position in the debate / conversation.

>the more meaning and weight it carries with each person of that way of life. And since I believe this, it behooves me to search out and to create more particularity, more specificity in our world. It creates meaning, it creates a multiplicity of meanings.

I disagree here as well. I believe meaning can be cultivated in both particularity and universality. It is not restricted to one or the other. Rather than "either / or", I believe it is "both / and".

Many definitions of 'universality' involve the well-being of the whole. Therefore, those who find meaning in fighting for the well-being of the whole / collective are finding meaning in universality. In contrast, many definitions of 'particularity' define it, at least in certain aspects, as the pursuit of individual well-being. Thus, some characterize particularity as an egoism in opposition to the collective well-being. Furthermore, these theorists believe that such self-interestedness is vain and unfulfilling. Personally, I think we need to find a healthy balance between the two.

>the fight against Capitalism.

Personally, I think the best way to combat capitalism is to embrace collectivity. The more united we are, the more we can undertake collective action. If we want to alter our economic system, we need to act collectively. Revolutions are the perfect example of this. Unions are another example. In both, there is large scale collective action.

In contrast, each pursuing their own self-interest results in the most extreme form of capitalism. Margaret Thatcher literally stated that "there is no such thing as community, only individuals". Thatcher, like the post-modernists, was an extreme particularist who hated universality. Consequently, capitalism flourished, unions died, and collective action has become largely impossible.

Lastly, capitalism is upheld by individuals not caring about each other. When we care for each other, diminish our egotistical pursuits, and focus on the well-being of the collective, capitalism fails. It is our egoism that upholds capitalism. Capitalism would collapse if everyone in society was a minimalist hippie.

2

kgbking t1_j6knqkn wrote

Hey mate, what did you think? Do you have some agreements with me? :D

2

VersaceEauFraiche t1_j6kos33 wrote

I appreciate your thought out response. I shall return when I have the energy to muster. Hopefully in the next few days.

2