jank_ram t1_j67pu0z wrote
Reply to comment by EducatorBig6648 in Cosmic nihilism, existential joy | Human consciousness, and our need for meaning in a meaningless world, is the source of both tragic pessimism and the intense joy we take in life. by IAI_Admin
Also consequences emerging from patterns, is a big leap and seems to be predicated on rather shallow observation based analysis. I might be wrong but that's how I understand this
EducatorBig6648 t1_j67wcod wrote
I didn't say consequences emerge from patterns, I'm more saying that we know consequences exist since we know patterns exist. Kind of like saying you know life exists if you know humans exist but it's not that humans brought forth life, humans could be just a recent addition to many lifeforms you are unaware of.
Consequences exist (just to give one aspect of it) because you, as the self ("the doubter"), can look at patterns and not just follow them as they are (trace them with your finger), you can apply your mind and see the consequences (e.g. this pattern exists in this thing consequentially a similar pattern may exist in this similar thing I only glimpsed at but have yet to examine as closesly as this thing). The fact that you can do this proves that consequences exist like a "layer" of "potential" over patterns (that are not potential in nature but actual).
In this sense consequences are the basis of the mind we usually mean by "our imagination". Because potential is not a pattern.
jank_ram t1_j69cywo wrote
I think you are just building on a basis that's heavily supported by the top. In the trying to understand something out of nothing you have to somehow prove from no basis, now, you use the word "know" as if we have established that it even exists, but does it? How can we know that we know? Were in all of this is the concrete ground? Because you can't just assume the "knowing" and the build up to the self which is what "knows"
EducatorBig6648 t1_j6a84dw wrote
Yes, I can. I know I exist. I can't HAVE existence without patterns so patterns exist. That is a consequence (one thing existing thanks to another thing's existence) so consequences exist.
That we can apply our mind and see consequences proves that this is so. Even if our MIND is ILLUSION it wouldn't change that fact because our self can use it to go "Hm, this is pattern A. This is pattern B. A consequence of that could be that my mind is an illusion but I do not want to leap to conclusions. I will investigate further."
EducatorBig6648 t1_j6c4jwr wrote
@jankram >I argue that consciousness is the only validator possible, since it's probably v a validator by definition, think of it as, something doesn't exist until it's validated by a consciousness, and when it does, it only exist to that consciousness.
But that argument I have already discounted elsewhere; Even a single consciousness existing proves that at least six other things exist as well. The five I remember are patterns, consequences, meaning and the truth (i.e. what is reality and what is non-reality/illusion/fiction/deception) and concepts.
None of these five exist only to the single consciousness.
>In other words if (and if it's possible) a consciousness dies the universe which it validated dies.
I do not see what you mean by this. Let's say you are real and I am just an illusion and pretty much everything around you (matter etc.) is an illusion. What is death? With none of the five things I mention above, how would death have any existence? Death would be a change of state, how can you have that when you have no patterns and meaning and the truth and consequences as these are all involved in another state even being a potential? And without the existence of concepts what were you conscious of before death? If your existence involved having no concept of anything, how were you a consciousness?
>I think you are saying something exists to the extent of it's relation to other things since that's what a pattern is, but I argue, says who?
That is a very strange notion of what a pattern is, focusing on a "middle dot" like that. Kindly elaborate on that for me.
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